- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I like initiatory as well, more so now that I don’t have to be naked. There are some cool blessings given during the initiatory, especially when you contemplate them. We recently had stake conference and as is tradition here the temple president and his wife (as well as the mission president and wife) are called on bear testimony. I swear every other sentence out of the wife’s mouth was “if you remain true and faithful.” I know it wasn’t really every other sentence, but she said it A LOT. She may be right, I may be crazy (but it just may be a lunatic you’re looking for)- but I’m not so sure that’s how it works.
I was much like Curt with my children. I had to do it when my wife wasn’t around because she is one of those who believes we can’t talk about anything outside the temple, but I pretty much told them everything and emphasized that it is all symbolic. My youngest was recently endowed. Afterwards, and again out of earshot, I told him I knew his new name. He asked if I overheard, and I hadn’t but I explained how it really works and since the new name for the day was his first given name, I knew what name they give everybody in that situation. He didn’t didn’t ask and I didn’t tell – but it didn’t shake him.
My own endowment was early 80s in the days of penalties and naked initiatories. I was very poorly prepared and I was wholly disappointed. I came out feeling like “That’s it? This is what people rave about? What was the point?” Even in my more orthodox days I was not crazy about the temple, partly because of that experience. Would it have been different if somebody told me what I told my kids? I don’t know because it didn’t happen but I doubt it (there I go with the doubts again – I can’t help it!
🙂 ).DarkJedi wrote:
My wife… is one of those who believes we can’t talk about anything outside the temple…I came out feeling like “That’s it? This is what people rave about? What was the point?”
Question I want to put out there, is why do you think the endowment ceremony is kept so secretive? I honestly don’t feel like I had any big revelations, or insights into the universe. I was also disappointed. I’ve heard, “We don’t talk about it, not because it’s secret, but because it’s sacred.” But with the Church placing such a strong emphasis on missionary work, and the importance of “correctness of belief” as a requirement for salvation, that doesn’t cut it for me. Even the “signs and tokens”, which are the only part explicitly covenanted to keep secret, seem like a pretty poor security measure for getting into heaven. It feels like either secrecy for secrecy’s sake, or secrecy to prevent the deep analysis and scrutiny that the world places on the Book of Mormon and Church History.
Beefster wrote:
SamBee wrote:
I actually like everything in the temple apart from the endowment.
I agree. Even the initiatory is preferable, but maybe I’m just saying that because the naked version predates me.I gotta say, I’ve always loved doing baptisms. The spirit I feel in the baptistry really stands at odds with the endowment, where I feel a mixture of boredom, objection, and only a faint hint of the Spirit. Not to mention the nature of the rituals themselves. It’s a sharp contrast.
Too bad I’m always stuck with initiatories and endowments when I proxy for ancestors. (I really hate the “names” terminology.) This is mostly so that my nephew can do the baptisms. No problem there… except that it’s the temple work I like best.
I agree. I love the baptistry. I also like the celestial room but you generally have to go through the endowment to get there.
dande48 wrote:
Question I want to put out there, is why do you think the endowment ceremony is kept so secretive? I honestly don’t feel like I had any big revelations, or insights into the universe. I was also disappointed. I’ve heard, “We don’t talk about it, not because it’s secret, but because it’s sacred.” But with the Church placing such a strong emphasis on missionary work, and the importance of “correctness of belief” as a requirement for salvation, that doesn’t cut it for me.I think it’s people hedging what they aren’t allowed to talk about just to be even “safer.”
I co-taught a temple prep course about 3 or 4 years ago. It was right at the time that the church released the video about clothing used in rituals in religion, the one that showed temple clothing (folded on a table, not worn). The other teacher was in the BPric, I talked with him about showing the video in our class and he wouldn’t allow it.
He was at the extreme end of not talking about anything that happens in the temple. Needless to say, I wasn’t pleased with the level of instruction we gave to people preparing for the temple. The manual isn’t sufficient. Our class hedged the manual. To better prepare them I would have had to have pulled people to the side and met with them outside official channels.
dande48 wrote:
Even the “signs and tokens”, which are the only part explicitly covenanted to keep secret, seem like a pretty poor security measure for getting into heaven. It feels like either secrecy for secrecy’s sake, or secrecy to prevent the deep analysis and scrutiny that the world places on the Book of Mormon and Church History.I had to drop the notion of the signs and tokens being actual security measures to get into heaven. Maybe it’s not so much the secret itself as it is a test to see if people can keep a secret?
I enjoy helping in the baptistry. I’ve done exactly one initiatory. Mine. I understand it has changed, don’t care. The first time was a bad enough experience to turn me off them for good.
If I never did another endowment session I wouldn’t miss it. It’s overlong.
SamBee wrote:
Quote:A ritual that is practically plagiarized from the freemason initiation- something that not even the most stalwart apologists can link to Solomon’s Temple.
They already have!
I’m sorry but have they plagiarized it or have they linked it to King Solomon’s Temple or both?
I went through the temple for the first time back in 1970. That was a very long time ago, and things have changed a lot since then. I remember being totally freaked out by the initiatory ceremony, and I didn’t do initiatories again until just a few years ago, after the major changes were made. I quite enjoy doing them now, but I’ll probably never forget the horror of my first experience. Several of you have mentioned being “naked.” I’m confused by that. I can’t remember ever being stark naked in front of anybody, but I do remember just wearing a poncho-like thing and being touched in ways that were very uncomfortable for me. I’m assuming that’s what the rest of you meant by “naked.” I received my own endowment a week before I got married. My mother had just gone into the hospital for emergency surgery and was not able to attend with me, so my future sister-in-law stood in for her. I remember people telling me, “Now don’t be afraid,” before I went. I couldn’t imagine what I could possibly find to be afraid of in the temple. Back then, there was no such thing as temple preparation classes, so I went in absolutely clueless and came out in a fog. Back then, you even had to wear special garments when you went through a session. It was just flat out NOT a good experience for me. For the first year or two after our being sealed, my husband and I went a handful of times, but it never got any better. As a matter of fact, hardly a time went by when something negative didn’t happen. It was usually a temple worker scolding me about something. I set the envelope containing my robes, etc. on the floor in the restroom once and you’d have thought I’d committed the unpardonable sin. It got to where I was just on pins and needles trying not to do anything wrong. Finally, I told my husband that I’d had enough, and we stopped going for close to 20 years.
At the urging of a male friend I had at work, we started going again back in about 1989. It was hard at first, and I was still pretty nervous. I remember once, after I’d been back fewer than a half dozen times, I was just about to pass through the veil when the temple worker looked at me and said (in the sternest, most condemning voice imaginable), “Sister, don’t you EVER wear those earrings to the temple again!” The second I got into the Celestial room, I started to bawl. To this day, I don’t know what was wrong with my earrings, but after a good hard cry, I decided that whatever it was, it was her problem, not mine, and that I wasn’t going to let it keep me out of the temple for the next 20 years.
We go these days about once every couple of months. I never, ever, ever “feel the spirit,” and I am generally bored to tears. But I do keep going for just one main reason: I feel like I live a very blessed life and I know that Heavenly Father knows that attending the temple is a sacrifice for me. He knows I would rather be doing almost anything else, but that I am trying to be obedient. When I ask myself why go, I basically just tell myself, “I know not, save the Lord has commanded me.” I have experienced one miracle in my life that I feel quite certain was tied to my decision to go to the temple one night, so I can’t say I’ve gotten nothing out of it. Still, it’s hard for me because I really just don’t have much of a testimony that it’s something that’s all that important to the Lord. I go, thinking, “Well, just in case…”
One quick story before I stop rambling on. We were married/sealed in the Salt Lake temple. Back then (1970), it wasn’t terribly uncommon to be sealed by a General Authority. President Monson had been a friend of my father’s family, so my parents asked him if he’d mind performing the sealing. He did, and it was truly memorable. After the actual sealing was over, he told my husband and I that we could kiss over the alter. When my husband put his arms around me, he accidentally pulled my veil off my head and it rested on my shoulders. I kind of freaked out and hurriedly put it back on. My husband tried putting his arms around me again, and again it fell off. I put it back on and it fell off again the third time he tried to hug and kiss me. At that point, President Monson interceded. “Don’t worry about the veil,” he said. “Just forget about it. You’ve obviously married a very passionate man.” His attitude made so much difference. On the way back to the dressing room, though, a little elderly temple worker saw me with the veil off my head and had a meltdown. “Oh dear! Oh dear! You mustn’t take the veil off until you’re back in the dressing room!” she said. Thoroughly annoyed, I looked at her and said, “Elder Monson just performed my marriage. The way my veil is was okay with him, so it ought to be okay with you!” Then I kind of glared at her and walked off to change my clothes.
dande48 wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
My wife… is one of those who believes we can’t talk about anything outside the temple…I came out feeling like “That’s it? This is what people rave about? What was the point?”
Question I want to put out there, is why do you think the endowment ceremony is kept so secretive? I honestly don’t feel like I had any big revelations, or insights into the universe. I was also disappointed. I’ve heard, “We don’t talk about it, not because it’s secret, but because it’s sacred.” But with the Church placing such a strong emphasis on missionary work, and the importance of “correctness of belief” as a requirement for salvation, that doesn’t cut it for me. Even the “signs and tokens”, which are the only part explicitly covenanted to keep secret, seem like a pretty poor security measure for getting into heaven. It feels like either secrecy for secrecy’s sake, or secrecy to prevent the deep analysis and scrutiny that the world places on the Book of Mormon and Church History.
Good question. I don’t know the answer either, other than people take the promise not to reveal some things to apply to all things. Truth is, most of the video/story itself is in the scriptures and mostly just a few chapters in a couple books. No signs and tokens are in there, of course, but that’s the part I remember promising not to reveal.
FWIW, I’m with Nibbler – the signs and tokens are symbolic and I’m not going to ever need to give them anywhere so I have given up on them. When my last son went through the temple president (in his little spiel) told him not to worry about remembering anything and just concentrate on the story. He emphasize there’s be someone there all the time to help him. That indicates to me that it’s not all that important in the big picture.
Quote:Several of you have mentioned being “naked.” I’m confused by that. I can’t remember ever being stark naked in front of anybody, but I do remember just wearing a poncho-like thing and being touched in ways that were very uncomfortable for me. I’m assuming that’s what the rest of you meant by “naked.”
I’m not sure that “shield” thing was much of a cover. The guys doing the ordinances could see everything. Close enough to naked for me. And as I said somewhere here before, I was not particularly fond of being touched by an 80 year old guy while I was for all intents and purposes naked.
Beefster wrote:He, almost instinctively, stated that I wasn’t prepared. It bothered me, but I didn’t really want to follow that rabbit hole, so I just said something like “maybe” and moved on to the next subject.
Well, it’s possible he was a bit slow to continue and you cut him off, but doesn’t anyone else see a problem that his immediate continuation of “you weren’t prepared” wasn’t to start following up on how that could be prevented for others in the future?
Do you really believe the Spirit inspires leaders to
notprepare people for the temple adequately? That the Lord and His eternal Comforter are OK with lots of people having near panic attacks that could have been prevented with a bit more explanation beforehand? That it’s just fine if that often leads people to some level of FC, and sometimes even all the way to leaving the Church? I had a bishop who admitted a few times in classes that some decisions were made by necessity without clear inspiration; more like “we can’t leave this calling unfilled any longer while I stare at the membership list and wait for a name to trigger something special, so I’m just going to pick someone and see if I get a resounding ‘No’ from on high.” It sometimes makes me wonder how many decisions about more important things were also made without such guidance because a deadline was approaching to “do something,” or worse, because “Brother so-and-so won’t change his mind for anything less than a burning bush, so I guess it doesn’t really hurt anything to do it his way even if we don’t really feel it’s inspired.”
Of course, it also goes back to my previous observation that sometimes what people take as clear and total Spiritual confirmation may be more along the lines of “well, it’s not
quitethe dumbest idea you’ve ever run by Me.” Katzpur, A few years ago I had an experience similar to one of yours. Some overzealous temple worker that was making me jump through hoops that simply don’t exist but for whatever reason they were going to hound me until I jumped through them.
Over the years I’ve run into and heard stories about people playing the role of righteousness police. I think that’s just how some people express their worship, they “defend” god by policing petty rules. Maybe they think that they’ll find more favor in the eyes of god for doing so. Hard to tell.
You’re right though; it’s their problem, not yours.
nibbler wrote:
Over the years I’ve run into and heard stories about people playing the role of righteousness police. I think that’s just how some people express their worship, they “defend” god by policing petty rules. Maybe they think that they’ll find more favor in the eyes of god for doing so. Hard to tell.You’re right though; it’s their problem, not yours.
Sounds like a fairly good definition of Pharisee to me. Just saying.
GBSmith wrote:
SamBee wrote:
Quote:A ritual that is practically plagiarized from the freemason initiation- something that not even the most stalwart apologists can link to Solomon’s Temple.
They already have!
I’m sorry but have they plagiarized it or have they linked it to King Solomon’s Temple or both?
Both. Don’t ask for sources… I have seen pro arguments for both.
Now my opinion. Freemasonry is partly preparation for death. So too is the temple ceremony. It reminds us we are mortal.
I prefer not to think of our endowment as Masonic as I am not a Mason. Yes, it is similar and related but so are the KKK and Orange Order which are far worse than us. That said, it is my least favorite part of the temple.
There are a number of notable features of Freemasonry which are absent in our church as well by the way. I have a good friend who is a Mason in bad standing and he tells me everything… aspects which are missing:
* Masonic lodges and temples are frequently used for public functions.
* There are multiple degrees. Properly only three, but numerous other ones. Much more complex than our one. You can belong to more than one lodge e.g. the Shriners are a special order.
Conversely there are aspects in the temple ceremony which seem to be quite different.
* Jesus Christ is mentioned throughout.
* The ceremony takes place en masse, rather than one person at a time.
* Women are involved. (Lodges are men-only with a tiny minority which are women only but not generally accepted)
* There is a film/stage play.
* Our robes are significantly different.
* Only our religion may attend.
* We only have limited dealings with the One World Order.
Quote:SamBee wrote
Now my opinion. Freemasonry is partly preparation for death. So too is the temple ceremony. It reminds us we are mortal.
I’m a master mason so no argument there.
Quote:* Masonic lodges and temples are frequently used for public functions.
The Nauvoo Temple was used for dances, as I recall. Once lodge is on session outsiders are excluded, though. The temple once dedicated is always on session
Quote:* There are multiple degrees. Properly only three, but numerous other ones. Much more complex than our one. You can belong to more than one lodge e.g. the Shriners are a special order.
If his dues are current, a mason can attend any lodge in the world. In the temple there are five degrees if you include the second anointing. Each of the four steps need to be completed in order to complete the endowment just as an initiate to masonry needs to be an entered apprentice (1st degree), then a fellowcraft (2nd degree) before becoming a master mason (3rd degree).Quote:Conversely there are aspects in the temple ceremony which seem to be quite different.
* Jesus Christ is mentioned throughout.
For masons it’s God or the Grand Architect of the Universe.
Quote:* The ceremony takes place en masse, rather than one person at a time.
The regular business meetings are en masse but degrees are conferred to one person at a time. Plus in the temple solemn assemblies are large groups.
Quote:* There is a film/stage play.
The 3rd degree includes a morality play.
Quote:* Our robes are significantly different.
Thankfully so.
Quote:* We only have limited dealings with the One World Order.
It would be wise not to forget that.You might want to check out Michael Homer’s Joseph’s Temples
https://www.amazon.com/Josephs-Temples-Relationship-Freemasonry-Mormonism-ebook/dp/B00SV0JIYA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1511053709&sr=8-1&keywords=joseph%27s+temples Katzpur wrote:I went through the temple for the first time back in 1970. That was a very long time ago, and things have changed a lot since then. I remember being totally freaked out by the initiatory ceremony, and I didn’t do initiatories again until just a few years ago, after the major changes were made. I quite enjoy doing them now, but I’ll probably never forget the horror of my first experience. Several of you have mentioned being “naked.” I’m confused by that. I can’t remember ever being stark naked in front of anybody, but I do remember just wearing a poncho-like thing and being touched in ways that were very uncomfortable for me. I’m assuming that’s what the rest of you meant by “naked.”
I received my own endowment a week before I got married. My mother had just gone into the hospital for emergency surgery and was not able to attend with me, so my future sister-in-law stood in for her. I remember people telling me, “Now don’t be afraid,” before I went. I couldn’t imagine what I could possibly find to be afraid of in the temple. Back then, there was no such thing as temple preparation classes, so I went in absolutely clueless and came out in a fog. Back then, you even had to wear special garments when you went through a session. It was just flat out NOT a good experience for me. For the first year or two after our being sealed, my husband and I went a handful of times, but it never got any better. As a matter of fact, hardly a time went by when something negative didn’t happen. It was usually a temple worker scolding me about something. I set the envelope containing my robes, etc. on the floor in the restroom once and you’d have thought I’d committed the unpardonable sin. It got to where I was just on pins and needles trying not to do anything wrong. Finally, I told my husband that I’d had enough, and we stopped going for close to 20 years.
At the urging of a male friend I had at work, we started going again back in about 1989. It was hard at first, and I was still pretty nervous. I remember once, after I’d been back fewer than a half dozen times, I was just about to pass through the veil when the temple worker looked at me and said (in the sternest, most condemning voice imaginable), “Sister, don’t you EVER wear those earrings to the temple again!” The second I got into the Celestial room, I started to bawl. To this day, I don’t know what was wrong with my earrings, but after a good hard cry, I decided that whatever it was, it was her problem, not mine, and that I wasn’t going to let it keep me out of the temple for the next 20 years.
We go these days about once every couple of months. I never, ever, ever “feel the spirit,” and I am generally bored to tears. But I do keep going for just one main reason: I feel like I live a very blessed life and I know that Heavenly Father knows that attending the temple is a sacrifice for me. He knows I would rather be doing almost anything else, but that I am trying to be obedient. When I ask myself why go, I basically just tell myself, “I know not, save the Lord has commanded me.” I have experienced one miracle in my life that I feel quite certain was tied to my decision to go to the temple one night, so I can’t say I’ve gotten nothing out of it. Still, it’s hard for me because I really just don’t have much of a testimony that it’s something that’s all that important to the Lord. I go, thinking, “Well, just in case…”
One quick story before I stop rambling on. We were married/sealed in the Salt Lake temple. Back then (1970), it wasn’t terribly uncommon to be sealed by a General Authority. President Monson had been a friend of my father’s family, so my parents asked him if he’d mind performing the sealing. He did, and it was truly memorable. After the actual sealing was over, he told my husband and I that we could kiss over the alter. When my husband put his arms around me, he accidentally pulled my veil off my head and it rested on my shoulders. I kind of freaked out and hurriedly put it back on. My husband tried putting his arms around me again, and again it fell off. I put it back on and it fell off again the third time he tried to hug and kiss me. At that point, President Monson interceded. “Don’t worry about the veil,” he said. “Just forget about it. You’ve obviously married a very passionate man.” His attitude made so much difference. On the way back to the dressing room, though, a little elderly temple worker saw me with the veil off my head and had a meltdown. “Oh dear! Oh dear! You mustn’t take the veil off until you’re back in the dressing room!” she said. Thoroughly annoyed, I looked at her and said, “Elder Monson just performed my marriage. The way my veil is was okay with him, so it ought to be okay with you!” Then I kind of glared at her and walked off to change my clothes.
I enjoyed this story thoroughly. I have felt much the same since going through originally in the early 80’s. I think my grandmother must have been the oft-mentioned “nervous nelly” in your story! Don’t worry, that kind of small-minded nagginess doesn’t work for anyone unless you let it. I’m all for exactitude and correctness but never at the expense of offense or spirit-sucking impact. Thanks again for sharing.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thank you SO much for your message. Honestly, sometimes I feel invisible on this forum because I don’t post as much as a lot of people do, so I’m glad that my experience was interesting to someone!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.