- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I am ecstatic that the accounts are described and linked. I can focus on the positive, or I can find negatives. In this case, I choose to focus on the positive, since it really is a gigantic step forward. I also read it as far more objective a description and far less a “spin” than some here, although that won’t surprise anyone, I’m sure. I just don’t see “spin” in the actual wording.
Occam’s Razor Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
cwald wrote:Occam’s Razor
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
But Joseph was too young to shave at the time!!!
SamBee wrote:cwald wrote:Occam’s Razor
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
But Joseph was too young to shave at the time!!!
😆 I like one of your three earlier points: that a lowly teenager could receive profound wisdom. But I guess what I’m wondering is why couldn’t that wisdom have flowed from the events in the earliest account?
Ann wrote:I like one of your three earlier points: that a lowly teenager could receive profound wisdom. But I guess what I’m wondering is why couldn’t that wisdom have flowed from the events in the earliest account?
Thanks Ann… I
doknow what you mean. But I’ve always loved the idea that an ordinary teenager, not well educated (but not completely illiterate or stupid!) could receive a message of wisdom… and that’s what I like about Mormonism, or indeed Pentecostalism, the idea that you too receive a personal revelation to some degree whatever your circumstances. I’ve often wondered if Joseph’s epiphany/theophany was not as clear cut as we think. That’s why I ask, did he see clearly defined being(s) or brilliant light and not much else.
(Beats the alien abduction theory anyday – but I’ll mention it elsewhere.)
Joseph writes that he had considered and realising the following significant doctrines between the age of 12 and 15 (or 14). That’s some impressive deep theological thought for a 12 year old. I’ve underlined some of the key highlights. – He is concerned about the welfare of his soul
– He has already realised the mankind had apostatised from the true and living faith and that no denomination built on the Gospel of Jesus Christ (before his vision)
– He sees the consistency and unchangeable nature of God
– He sees the heavens, earth and life upon as paying homage to their creator, and made in His likeness
– He considers God to be an Omnipotant and Omnipresent power who fills space and eternity
– He considers God to be the maker and binder of laws
– He seeks mercy and seeks to worship this being in spirit and truths and cries to him
Quote:At about the age of twelve years my mind become seriously imprest with regard to the all importent
concerns of for the well fare of my immortal Soulwhich led me to searching the scriptures believeing as I was taught, that they contained the word of God thus applying myself to them and my intimate acquaintance with those of differant denominations led me to marvel excedingly for I discovered that instead of adorning their profession by a holy walk and Godly conversation agreeable to what I found contained in that sacred depository this was a grief to my Soul thus from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart concerning the sittuation of the world of mankind the contentions and divi[si]ons the wicke[d]ness and abominations and the darkness which pervaded the of the minds of mankind my mind become excedingly distressed for I become convicted of my sins and by searching the scriptures I found that manddid not come unto the Lord but that they had apostatised from the true and liveing faith and there was no society or denomination that built upon the gospel of Jesus Christas recorded in the new testament and I felt to mourn for my own sins and for the sins of the world for I learned in the scriptures that God was the same yesterday to day and forever that he was no respecter to persons for he was Godfor I looked upon the sun the glorious luminary of the earth and also the moon rolling in their magesty through the heavens and also the stars shining in their courses and the earth also upon whic h I stood and the beast of the field and the fowls of heaven and the fish of the waters and also man walking forth upon the face of the earth in magesty and in the strength of beauty whose power and intiligence in governing the things which are so exceding great and [p. 2]marvilous even in the likeness of him who created himand when I considered upon these things my heart exclai med well hath the wise man said the fool saith in his heart there is no God my heart exclaimed all all these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotant and omnipreasant power a being who makith Laws and decreeeth and bindeth all things in their bounds who filleth Eternity who was and is and will be from all Eternity to Eternity… and when considered all these things and thatbeing seeketh such to worshep him as wors hip him in spirit and in truth therefore I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderne ss and while in attitude of calling upon the Lord a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord…
That’s not the thought process of an ordinary 12-13 year old boy. He clearly had thought long and deep about the nature of God and had already concluded that all churches were wrong before he’d even made his prayer. That would be another of the contradictions DBMormon. He also sees God as filling space and time. Omnipotent and omnipresent. Which is another view that he later changes.
I think it’s simpler than that. He had evidently heard many churchmen say only their church was correct, and wondered why they were all slightly different (these were pre-ecumenical days). He was also worried that he was damned and he didn’t want to go to hell. (I seem to recall at that age I was terrified of the prospect of nuclear war, which was very possible at the time) It’s dressed up in fancy language, but I don’t think either of these are beyond a man of that age. People grew up faster then, often working by fourteen and out of school, and married by sixteen.
I think he had a very intense experience, but not as clear cut as he later claimed.
Sambee makes a good point about it likely being simpler than that. It seems likely with the excitement of religion in his time and region, he was being given things to think about, and he might have been the personality type to think about it seriously whereas others listened to the preachers of the time, and then went back to work on the farm without as much introspection.
I don’t think Joseph thought up all those doctrinal issues on his own. But he was a curious soul from a young age. Surely his parents saw that part of his character from an early age.
He surely had some gifts, but it is also seems those accounts are written (dictated) from an adult Joseph reflecting back on thoughts and feelings from his youth. The way he expresses his thoughts might be in adult language, even if those thoughts and questions were really in his mind when he was young trying to make sense of all the things he was hearing on Sunday from multiple sources.
When I was 14 I had some deep thoughts as I went to do baptisms for the dead, and reflected a lot about my existence. But I could only process so much at that age, so those fleeting moments of deep thinking were more surrounded by my adolescent thoughts around friends, girls, sports, and school. And I’m no where near the capacity of someone like Joseph Smith who achieved so much in his lifetime. My point is, I just think early sparks of who Joseph was may not have been so intense and deep as expressed in reflection by the adult Joseph about those thoughts and feelings. It may not have been so developed, even if those thoughts were there.
But I still believe it helps establish Joseph was a unique individual. He had special gifts.
Great response Heber13. :clap: I still have some poetry I wrote about that age. Most of it is awful. and I rarely write the stuff these days – there are enough poetasters in this world already – but it certainly tells me something about my 14 yr old mindset. Yes, of course I developed a thing for girls (young Joseph must have too) within that time, but death was on my mind partly because of family losses. (As I say, nuclear war was hanging over our heads at that time, now we have global warming) I also questioned the hypocrisy of many so called Christians who didn’t treat other people well. I’d been to the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Anglicans and the Salvation Army, I too had been allowed to look around. At nine or ten, I wrote a prayer, which was good enough to be read out. I had some inkling of spiritual things back even at that age. By fifteen/sixteen, we studied some basic theology at High School and I had read large chunks of the Bible. By this age, I’d checked out the Baptists and Pentecostals too, and investigated Islam, and read the Book of Mormon and Koran.
Now all this sounds very “sad”, maybe was. I think we tend to think of teenagers as children sometimes – they’re not, nor are they full adults.
Coming in very late to this thread, but just want to point out that the Church has been pretty open in the past about the multiple accounts of the first vision. I know this first hand, because as a fully faithful and believing member of the Church in the early 90’s I studied up on an article in the Ensign that described the various accounts and referenced them in the sunday school lesson I was giving. A quick search of the Ensign online shows the Church published a pair of articles, first in Jan, 1985 (29 years ago) titled “Joseph Smith’s Recitals of the First Vision” and a followup a year later, called “Confirming Witnesses of the First Vision.”
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1985/01/joseph-smiths-recitals-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng http://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/01/confirming-witnesses-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng These articles are surprisingly open, considering they were published during the presidencies of Spencer W Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson.
Another article was published in the Ensign in April, 1996 called, “Joseph Smith’s Testimony of the First Vision” that again talked openly about he multiple accounts.
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1996/04/joseph-smiths-testimony-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng These articles were originally available in print, later on the Church’s Gospel Library CDs and have been online for years. I agree that the Church has kept a relatively low profile about the existence of various accounts, but they certainly haven’t been hiding it either. Again, I knew about it and used it in sunday school well before my faith crisis.
I was taught about them at BYU in a religion class.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.