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First of all, I want to thank you all so much for your help. You’ve worked hard to help give me things to think about, and I’m extremely grateful for that. That being said, I’m not sure if this is the site for me. As I mentioned in my original post, I’m not going to believe that masturbation isn’t a sin. As mentioned earlier, it’s in For the Strenth of Youth. More importantly, Jesus said that if you look on a woman to lust, you’ve committed adultery in your heart. Somebody mentioned that pornography isn’t a sin, and I think the fact that this was said by Jesus given during the all-important Sermon on the Mount shows that is false. The Sermon on the Mount is one of the reasons I believe in Christ. I won’t go into detail about that now. But anyway, with regards to masturbation I think it’s clearly sinful because it brings impure thoughts into your mind, and just gets you tempted to look at pornography. I’m aware that most guys do it. I’m also aware that Bruce R. McKonckie believed the majority of souls would go to the Telestial Kingdom. Now I know that was just a personal opinion, but I think there’s a good chance he’s right. And what better way to test people’s worthiness than to give them all some ultimate temptation built straight into their bodies that they have to overcome? You don’t have to be LDS to know it’s wrong to masturbate. CS Lewis believed it was wrong, and it sounds to me like basically all Christian theologians know it too. I’m sorry if I’m sounding rude to the people who believe it is okay, but I just think it sounds insane.
And to address the claim that everyone does it, and that people who say they don’t are lying, I can tell you for sure that that is absolutely false. I went well over a year without doing it, and I’m sure I’ll be able to go longer than that now that I’ve made some plans to exercise early and avoid laying in bed where the dirty thoughts arise. Also, if I had been told sooner that it was wrong, I may have dodged the problem completely. Don’t try to tell me that CS Lewis was secretly masturbating. I truly feel that intelligence kills your sex drive. If you find important things to put on your mind, particularly important questions related to the gospel or even politics, you just lose your interest in sex. As I said, I am improving. I’ve slowly been killing the desire to do it by learning the gospel better. The last time I looked at pornography, I can’t even say I really enjoyed it much. I was just thinking, “wow, am I seriously looking at this garbage?” whe I used to be drooling all over it. I have every intention of breaking free from masturbation and pornography, and I know I will. The gospel just takes serious commitment.
The real point of my last question was to address the fact that I basically gambled with the devil. Nobody really answered my question about if God would send me to the Telestial Kingdom very directly. Though it sounds like most of you don’t even believe it’s a sin. Whatever. I don’t think I’m going there because of that promise I made. I know He’ll forgive me. I guess I just wanted to hear some reassurance from others that that was the case. Maybe I should have put more emphasis on the fact that that is what I was asking.
Again, thank you all for trying to help me. Some of you did give me things to think about. Feel free to keep giving me your input, but I think these are just questions I’ll have to figure out for myself over time.
cm, there are people here with very different beliefs and perspectives than others here. There really isn’t any particular orthodoxy here, except to say that each of us has to figure things out in a way that makes sense personally and that we all should try to respect the views and opinions of others given how much we want them to accept ours. For example, I personally loathe pornography – but I also think that we tend to beat it to death and then keep beating the dead horse in the Church. I also think we tend to talk so much about it that we actually bring it to the consciousness of people who naturally wouldn’t bother with it at all. It’s kind of like the parent who tells his child not to stick jelly beans up his nose when that child never would think of doing it without that instruction.
Don’t get me wrong: I do believe we need to preach against pornography – but I just think we do it quite badly, generally speaking.
I think masturbation can be a sin, but I also think it isn’t in many cases – and I certainly don’t believe it is anywhere near being a sin next to murder like some members assume when they lump all sexual practices into the category of sexual sins. If I had to pick one of the extremes (classifying it as so serious that it makes someone almost a murderer and encouraging it without any recognition of harmful extremes), I would pick the extreme of leniency – simply because of the terrible consequences I have observed with people who were scarred badly by seeing themselves as deprived sinners who were without hope.
Generally speaking, if I have to choose between those two extremes with regard to almost any issue, I will choose on the side of agency and caution over severe restriction and hardcore guilt-enforcement. It’s just how I see things, and I believe deeply that God will judge us only on how well we try to live according to the dictates of our own consciences – rather than the specific dictates of those consciences. That allows me to maintain hope for the terrorists who flew the planes into the Twin Towers, for example – and that hope is important to me. If that is true, it certainly allows me to maintain hope for those who masturbate occasionally or even regularly. Losing that hope, in my opinion, does serious damage to the concept of a real, practical, powerful atonement.
You are welcome here, and I hope that you find the answers that you are seeking either here or somewhere else. You are right, I didn’t really deal with the other question directly, but that is because my current beliefs don’t really include a God that punishes you for every act, or the Telestial Kingdom, so it is very difficult for me to speak to that. There are other people on this site that do believe in both of those things, so maybe they can help you more.
I will share something that has worked well for me in the past when trying to overcome addictions. Instead of promising yourself to never do something again, which is pretty overwhelming, focus on how long you can go without doing something. When I set that as an intermediate goal, it was very motivating. When I’m really tempted the question wasn’t can I hold off forever, which was overwhelming, but can I hold off whatever length of time I promised myself that I would.
Example, (say it is eating chocolate, just because it is easy to talk about, which I am most tempted to eat in the afternoon)
I eat chocolate at 4 p.m. by the time I am going to bed I am tempted for some more but I had some not too long ago, so I can resist without too much difficulty. I can go to sleep wake up start my day, by 10 am I am really tempted to have some chocolate, but I see if I can hold out just one more hour. 11 comes, and I give in, but I have gone 19 hours without which is a victory for me.
So now I have a new goal: go more than 19 hours without chocolate, so that is until 6 the next morning. The afternoon is tough, but I have just had chocolate that morning and I only have to wait until the next morning. 6 o clock comes and I’m busy getting ready, I don’t really think about it until 9 o clock or so, but then in just 2 more hours I will have gone 24 hours without. Can I make it 24 hours? Yes. So at 11:00 I have another piece of chocolate.
Now my goal is to beat 24 hours, it is tough, but I make it 26 hours.
The next day is really hard, and eat some chocolate in the afternoon, I haven’t made my goal. But after I give in, my goal is still 26 hours from that time.
After several weeks I have worked up to 3 days without eating chocolate. A couple of months and I have gone as long as a week. Once I’m at that point, it gets easier, I’m used to all the temptations that would come, and the habit is gone. I can build up faster. I can go 9 days, then 12, then two weeks.
You can see how this builds. Anyway, it was something that worked really well for me.
confused_mormon wrote:I’m not sure if this is the site for me.
you are probably correct. You are always welcome here, but it may not yet be right for you.confused_mormon wrote:As I mentioned in my original post, I’m not going to believe that masturbation isn’t a sin. As mentioned earlier, it’s in For the Strenth of Youth. More importantly, Jesus said that if you look on a woman to lust, you’ve committed adultery in your heart. Somebody mentioned that pornography isn’t a sin, and I think the fact that this was said by Jesus given during the all-important Sermon on the Mount shows that is false.
You can believe whatever you want to. The fact is that the Law of Chastity, as defined in the church, temple, and throughout history, refers to actual sexual relations outside of marriage. The letter of the law does not include a host of things that are really bad ideas, like pornography, excessive masturbation, petting, and any degree of obsession over sexuality either direction (excessive chastitiy is an unnatural obsession). For The Strength of Youth (FTSOY) and the Sermon on the Mount are giving valuable counsel: Christ was not issuing new law, and neither does FTSOY. Both are counseling that indulgence in certain thoughts and practices can lead to the sins we need to avoid. Wise counsel, but let us not confuse the counsel with the law. This was the error of the Pharisees, who built an obsessive, unnatural fence around the law.The problem with the fence around the law is that it often gets in the Way of our natural progression in life. We will have bad thoughts, and yes, we will naturally make mistakes. When the fence attempts to prevent our mistakes, we think we have “broken the Law”. Once inside the fence, the evil one lies and says we “are under his power”. With such white and black thinking, we are guilty of the whole law–we have sinned, and there is no difference between masturbation and violent rape: we have broken the whole law and done the “sin next to murder”. You can see how this is ridiculous– it is a lie that guilt tells us and leads us to places we don’t need to go. That’s why the fence is wrong.
The fence around the law of chastity creates an obsession in us… It certainly did for me. I never “masturbated” to ejaculation until after my mission — didn’t know how to. Yet my relationship with sexuality was completely unhealthy. The reason many of us have said what we have is because in retrospect, we see how our youthful obsession with this adversely affected our lives, and in love, we are sharing our experience, so that you can avoid our mistakes. We are simply wayfarers who have been down the road you are choosing to follow, and are simply trying to share with you what lies ahead.
There is a more excellent Way (1 Cor 12-13), one where wayfaring fools like me shall not err therein (see Isaiah 35:
. It is the Way of Love that Jesus taught. Love adapts, love accepts our humanity, including our natural sexuality. Satan teaches us to hate ourselves, and uses the guilt associated with our frequent mistakes, including masturbation, to drag us further down. In the Garden of Eden account, Satan was the one who taught that nakedness was shameful, and he continues to manipulate us today. Paradoxically, when you let go of the guilt through the Grace of Christ, your “sins are swept away”. Christ does not condemn us, we do that ouselves, and in so doing, deny ourselves his grace. Conversely, by letting go of the “sinfulness” associated with natural acts, they no longer are an obsession, and they will no longer have sway over us. That is the grace of Christ.Whatever way you choose to follow, I wish you well. I hope you find what you are seeking.
confused_mormon wrote:The real point of my last question was to address the fact that I basically gambled with the devil. Nobody really answered my question about if God would send me to the Telestial Kingdom very directly. Though it sounds like most of you don’t even believe it’s a sin. Whatever. I don’t think I’m going there because of that promise I made. I know He’ll forgive me. I guess I just wanted to hear some reassurance from others that that was the case. Maybe I should have put more emphasis on the fact that that is what I was asking.
Don’t worry about this. A covenant and consequence is dependent on two people agreeing to the deal.
There is no way that God would have taken you up on this deal. You made an offer of commitment that was disproportionate to the consequence you proposed. As such God does not bind you with this.
He has already written the law and the principle of forgiveness, grace and mercy. Masturbation does not automatically consign us to the Telestial kingdom. God is bound by the laws irrevocably decreed in heaven. He can’t and won’t change them. As a result, he will have not taken you up on your bargain because he can’t, based on the laws of heaven.
If you feel you have sinned and distanced yourself from God through your actions (and that is your option, irrespective of what anyone else on here thinks), then there is always, always the option to feel the relief of God’s love. ‘Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow.’ We don’t have to ‘pay’ we don’t have to ‘suffer’ – we can simply give our burden to the Lord and appreciate the grace he offers.
Please, please – don’t agonise and beat yourself up. I don’t think the God I have faith in wants you to feel that way.
Re-read or watch Elder Utchdorf’s wonderful talk in priesthood session last month. I’ve realised I’m happier to be whatever type of ‘plane’ God made me. I measure myself against me – so I’m always the right size.
For what it’s worth, I think my young son is on the asbergers spectrum (though not diagnosed) and can very easily get anxious and panicked about things we consider trivial. We’ve learnt that telling him ‘it doesn’t matter’ doesn’t help. He knows it does matter, so he just needs to be supported while he feels that way and until he can move on with things.
I hope you’ll feel that support here too.
Hello. I did misunderstand the point of question 5. I apologize. It is just a topic that has done some harm to me so I feel very strongly about it. I did not mean to offend. I am sure I felt similarly to you about it absolutely being a sin at some point in my life as well.
I do not think it will send you to the Telestial kingdom (i am not sure i believe in such a place btw) as long as you repent. It sounds like you are doing this. My best advice based on my own personal experience with quitting masturbation during my mission is:
1. Don’t beat yourself up when you have a relapse. Relapses are part of the recovery process.
2. Try hard
3. Never give up
I have followed those steps when trying to do anything difficult and it seems to work. You will probably also want to pray a lot.
Good luck
confused_mormon wrote:…I’m not sure if this is the site for me. As I mentioned in my original post,
I’m not going to believe that masturbation isn’t a sin…anyway, with regards to masturbation I think it’s clearly sinful because it brings impure thoughts into your mind, and just gets you tempted to look at pornography. I’m aware that most guys do it…Bruce R. McKonckie believed the majority of souls would go to the Telestial Kingdom…I think there’s a good chance he’s right. And what better way to test people’s worthiness than to give them all some ultimate temptation built straight into their bodies that they have to overcome?You don’t have to be LDS to know it’s wrong to masturbate. CS Lewis believed it was wrong, and it sounds to me like basically all Christian theologians know it too. I’m sorry if I’m sounding rude to the people who believe it is okay, but I just think it sounds insane. If you honestly believe masturbation is wrong then I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise. My only suggestion would be to at least try to keep it in perspective. Shouldn’t there be more important things to worry about than porn and masturbation? How much will any of this really matter ten years from now? Chances are you will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about and why you were so hard on yourself before. I could see where something like adultery or getting a girl pregnant while you are still a teenager could do some serious lasting damage but I don’t understand why something like masturbation where there are no obvious victims and no tangible harm is done should be blown completely out of proportion, sin or not.
It looks like the Church has already been backing off and softening their position on this as well because they used to specifically talk about masturbation, petting, oral sex, etc. all being horrible sins but lately all I hear about is extremely vague terminology like immorality, sexual sins, impure thoughts, and “personally degrading practices” that you can technically interpret however you want. At this point, porn is one of the few specific no-nos left that they keep bringing up by name probably mostly because they see wives freaking out about it. Personally I don’t blame them for not pushing harder to try to eliminate all masturbation among active members once and for all because there wouldn’t be very many “worthy” priesthood holders left in that case other than maybe some of the oldest ones that grew up in a different environment where Victorian prude attitudes were still the norm.
confused_mormon, My post regarding “two kinds of liars” was not mean to offend but after I thought about it, I realize it could be hurtful. My intent was to use a little humor in the discussion.
Having struggled tremendously with guilt about masturbation and thinking about girls during my teenage years, I realize it’s probably not particularly helpful to say it doesn’t matter. Depending on your parents and leaders, we are constantly reminded about the penultimate sin of unchastity. I feel like I wasted my teenage years because I was convinced I was going to the telestial kingdom or that I would be deemed unworthy and would be burned at the 2nd coming. I even wrote an anonymous letter to my seminary teacher asking him to tell his students whether that sin would cause us to burn. For me it was a long journey when at the end I concluded that I simply cannot worry about it if I want a normal life. I have been diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and while I don’t take medications for it, I exercise religiously to overcome worrying about every little thing and all my imperfections. I finally realized it’s not healthy physically and it’s not healthy for my relationships with others.
A couple of experiences to share. I was in bishopric training with a mission president and a visiting member of the 12. The mission president was talking about the greatest challenge facing future missionaries, and he said it was playing video games, not chastity. He said something very close to this quote: “I would rather have a mission full of masturbating missionaries that can relate with people than a mission full of missionaries who played video games during high school.” This was in front of the apostle who didn’t seem upset by the comment at all. I’ve also heard more than one bishop who says that if they prohibit masturbating priests from blessing the sacrament that nobody would be able to bless the sacrament.
I tend to think that a loving Heavenly Father won’t damn 99% of one gender for something so difficult to control. For myself, I had to come to the conclusion that it’s not a major sin. Maybe something along the lines of saying a bad word, but I just can’t accept it’s the same as adultery.
To comment on other aspects of your original post:
1) Prophets. I wish I understood prophets more and could share insights.
2) Why does the church constantly get involved in political affairs. My observation is mostly the opposite – that the church only officially opines on matters it considers particularly important, like prop 8. I know many people who would rather it get more involved by denouncing serious humanitarian problems such as war, large scale rape, slavery, poverty. Politics is a “no-win scenario” in my opinion and I think it’s probably smart to stay out of it, and I wish it would stay out even more, like prop 8.
3) Guilt being swept away. I don’t know many people who feel this drastic disappearance of guilt. Maybe it happens for some and not for others. By far, I think the most difficult thing is to forgive ourselves.
4) Patriarchal blessing. Mine was a great comfort to me. I feel it is personal scripture. That being said, I view all scripture as interpretation through one person for someone else. I wish I had the original reference, but I believe that once Orson Scott Card talked about revelation being a minimum of a series of two translations. The prophet receives the revelation (be it vision, voice, whatever) and then interprets it and records it. The end receiver then has to interpret the prophets interpretation. The same applies to patriarchal blessings, and we don’t even claim that they are near-perfect conduits of heavenly messages like prophets.
Finally, this site may or may not be the site for you. It has been a blessing in my life and I feel better about my life and the choices I’ve made because of what I’ve learned here. Everyone is different and has to discover for him/herself what we want with the LDS church.
Roadrunner wrote:I tend to think that a loving Heavenly Father won’t damn 99% of one gender for something so difficult to control.
Roadrunner inadvertently stumbles upon the true justification for polygamy…it is because 99% of males will be excluded from the Celestial Kingdom for masturbation!
😆 Sorry, couldn’t help myself.More seriously though, Prophets both ancient and modern have done things that we might find abhorrent. If God continues to work through these flawed and imperfect men – then perhaps there is room for us flawed and imperfect men as well.
One of my favorite songs depicts a remorseful and repentant Joseph Smith (who BTW was constantly being reprimanded in the D & C). Jesus responds to him thus:
Quote:I Know your hunger, Know your pain,
I’ve seen your sacrifice for my name
I’ve seen your sorrow for the choices you’ve made
But I feel your broken heart and I see,
The light in your eyes, in your life, in your soul.
So search your heart, you’ll find me there
I’ve heard your anguish, and every prayer
My love for you, will never end-
You’re still my servant, still my friend
Still my servant, still my friend.
“Still My Servant, Still My Friend” By Brett RaymondHey, I am new to this forum too (I will do a formal introduction soon). I have been following the forum for some time now but wanted to weigh in here. Everyone has differing views on various aspects of the gospel and I find it really helpful to read these views. Faith is a complex thing and this topic of masturbation (or question #5) proves that. I think people here sincerely want to help. While you may not 100% agree with them, maybe you can find solace with some of their words and experiences.
I know the guilt that was associated with youthful masturbation. My leaders had drilled it into my head that this would cause impotency if I was lucky or homosexuality if I wasn’t. I was sure that I was on the road to hell and that first time I talked to my bishop as a 15 year old I was expecting excommunication (how is that for naive). Upon reflection, I directly associate this guilt to some poor decisions after high school that ended up with the abuse of lots of drugs and alcohol, which didn’t seem so bad since I had already sold my soul.
Fast forward a couple of years and I had repented. I was on a mission and this monster reared it’s head again. At this time, i was sure that since I was an endowed member and living the higher law of a missionary I was sure to be sent home. After lots of guilt, mental anguish and personal suffering I fessed up to my mission president and expected the worst. His reaction reflects what I think most people here want you to understand. He simply asked if I would try to get it under control. I said yes, and then he said great. I wasn’t released as a district leader and wasn’t put on any kind of repentance path. It was done. Next time I needed to repent his reaction was the same.
In the 15 years since my mission I have done lots of thinking about my president’s reaction vs my inner reaction. I have talked to other people about their experiences (guys and girls). My consensus is that most people have indulged at one point or another, the ones who never have are a rare breed.
I have seen the wording softened and changed in the Strength of Youth and church handbook. The word masturbation has been removed from these documents. I think this has to mean something, but the meaning I find in it is my own interpretation. I hope that as you deal with this, based on your understanding and beliefs, that you will not be too hard on yourself. Repent, if you feel it is necessary. Do what it takes to feel clean and good. Don’t let this drag you down.
To comment on other aspects of your original post: 1) Prophets. I used to think they were infallible and that they spoke to God as “a man speaketh to a friend” ….meaning personally in Gods presence…”Dude keep your voice down” kind of real conversations. I am older now and the evidence is overwhelming that this is not the case. I thank President Hinckley for bringing prophets down to earth. His talks with media helped bring things into perspective (good follow up to the Benson years). The latest church announcements regarding Africans and the priesthood put the cherry on the “Prophets don’t really hang out in two way chats with God sundae”
So what are prophets? I do believe that prophets are comfortable speaking with God “a man speaketh to a friend”….but in the same way we all can. There have even been talks describing how prophets approach inspiration….and it is the same way we all do while acting in our areas of stewardship (Stake Pres for his Stake, Bishop for the ward, mother for her child, father for his own soul).
Prophets administer the church, prophets set directoin under the inspiration and guidance they feel. I now believe that prophets biggest struggles are likely discerning between their own will and that of the lords….just like we all do. I think that is why 12 apostles can speak on the same element of doctrine, and all supporting it yet, 1 (for me usually Uchtdorf) will inspire, 6 or so will make me go “uh huh…no suprises there” and a couple will royally irritate me. Each sees through their own lense and communicates that view….they are learning and growing too. They get to avail themselves of the plan of salvation just like the rest of us….just in their case we all get to go along for the ride…like a lot of Africans got to do for decades….I believe the Lord will not deprive them and will make it work out just like he promised he would do for all who are willing to “bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you”. BTW, remember that when the Lords annointed seem to be calling you unworthy….at one time your grandparents were likely getting the same guilt trip for having relations without their garments on….it is ok now.
We need prophets…usually their skills lie in administrative skills and patience, prophecy comes along as part of the job. Probably why we refer to them as “President” most of the time. They are only rarely prophesying….and are supposed to tell you when they are.
2) Why does the church constantly get involved in political affairs. I think if you read my answer to question 1 it answers this. They are trying to do good within the realm of their understanding….and they might be right…though I don’t think so. I believe we had a spitwad fight or namecalling contest of some type in the pre-exhistance over free agency (still don’t know how big a war a bunch of incorporeal spirits can have….unless we had cool psychic abilities which would totally rock) and that Satan wanted to rule by force…..he got in a lot of trouble for that…so seems a few of us are confused as we strive to enforce our belief system on others by rule of law. Want to change things and you believe the gospel is the answer for happiness? One prophet said he reccomends “teach them good principals and they will govern themselves”
Be patient they, just like you and me, are learning.
3) Guilt being swept away. Many answers to this have been given in people answers to your number 5 question. Guilt, in my opinion, is the adversaries tool. I heard a joke once goes like this:
A age old catholic priest comes screaming out of the Vatican archives waving an old piece of parchment
He is stopped by security as he appears to be out of his mind…eventually they take him to the pope to get answers and the security guards are disimissed to wait outside the office door
Pope: what is it my son….what so disturbs you”
Priest: f-f-f-father…it is horrible…there has been a mistake
Pope: What mistake my son…could it be so terrible?
Priest: We had it wrong…the word they were using in regards to sex was “celibRate!”…not celibate!
Outside the Popes security was startled as they heard the pope screaming
I believe one day we are going to find out the Lord never meant for guilt to debilitate us. I believe he meant us to recognize our weaknesses, then to become humble as we realized how much better we could be, then to rejoice as we found improvement and the joy that follows and probably some sorrow for the joy we missed out on by not improving earlier….this experience then motivating us to find new joys through personal improvement…where we change not because someone else is disappointed in us…God helps us find truth, understand truth, then embrace truth, then implement truth….it is a personal journey that leads to your guilt being swept away….then changed into desire to be better…
I love the lament of Nephi in 2 Nephi 4: 16. I hear Sorrow and celebration….not Guilt
16 Behold, my asoul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my bheart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.
18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.
19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
20 My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.
21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.
… Lots of wow…god has done great things for me…yet I screw up…please keep helping me
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I bask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the drock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen
4) Patriarchal blessing: Kind of struggle with them…find them full of generic statements that sort of could fit anyone. If you study psychics then they lose evenmore of their power…I may be jaded though…my Patriarch was excommunicated…for things he was doing when I got mine…whole new discussion there.
5) Masturbation. In regards to the churches approach and guilt, read my #1 and #3 answers. Our stake president actually said in stake priesthood meeting that Bishops shouldn’t be talking to kids about this…it is more appropriate between parents and kids….step in the right direction that.
Guilt will take you nowhere on this one…it will in fact deliever you into the adversaries hands. Guilt is a chain he hands us and we lock onto ourselves….forever holding the key. Christ died for all of your sins…not just the ones you did once. So why not just get high speed internet and lock yourself in your room all day? Because thats giving up….he just wants you to keep working at it….and stop obsessing.
Another Story:
My wife was inthe Christmas choir for our stakes combined Christmas sacramanent (it was jsut for the 3 wards in teh building…but not important). She was on the stand, meeting was starting and she came down to me and said she thought she might be having a heart attack (we were both in our 30’s at the time). We got her checked out…no heart problems, just an anxiety attack.
My wife had never had an anxiety attack before…..so no big deal. Guess what…next time she is on the stand…she is so worried she might have an anxiety attack that she brings on an anxiety attack. So began a cycle that lasted over a year of serious problems. Any feeling of stress would cause her to worry about an attack, which would then cause an attack. It was not until she gained the discipline to let the worry go that she gained control. Over a decade later she still has to have mental discipline to “relax. you are not going to have an attack” every time her heart beats fast.
So goes the deal with maturbation/porn. God gave you the urges and unless you are broken, a well put together woman in a sweater will ilkely bring on a chemical reaction…..it doesn’t mean you are going to hell …it means you are human. If you want to overcome masturbation, work on it. Allow God to heal you, drop guilt, seek improvement, try to be a better you and don’t be surprised that your are not perfect…he made you that way so you can be humble and reach out to others who need help with empathy rather than condescension.
I love the physical attributes of women….how do I get myself to not immerse myself in porn? Respect, not guilt. We as men need to understand that women deserve respect. They desrve to be looked at as our equals, not like our favorite meal. The more disciplined I am in trying to have empathy for the women in my life the easier it is to avoid pornography out of respect for my friends and loved ones. If I fail on occasion, then I put it in context of my life as a whole, commit myself to work on being better, pray for Gods strength and move on. He gave me the urges so I figure he will help me get through it as long as I don’t freak out.
Sorry this is so long….if you want to see where too much guilt takes you, watch the Disney version of hunchback of Notre Dame….where the lustful leader starts blaming the object of his lust on the gorgeous girl….thats the end point of too much guilt…I believe this is why some cultures make women walk around in tents.
Finally, this site may or may not be the site for you. It has been a blessing in my life and I feel better about my life and the choices I’ve made because of what I’ve learned here. Everyone is different and has to discover for him/herself what we want with the LDS church.
Confused Mormon, Welcome to the site. I’ve been thinking of your questions all week long.
I think your 3rd and 5th questions have to do with understanding Grace like DBMormon said. When I was at BYU I learned a lot about grace by taking Dr. Robinson’s NT class and reading his book “Believing Christ.”
Quote:You said: And if you believe in God, you know that He can forgive you.
I don’t think that the one necessarily follows the other. I think that we can be in a place (and I
havebeen) where we can accept the atonement generally and reject it personally. There’s a difference between saying “Jesus is the savior of the world” and “Jesus is mysavior.” Or “Jesus paid the price of our sins” vs. “Jesus paid the price of my sins.” Or “Through the atonement we can repent and be forgiven” vs. “I’ve repented and have been forgiven of sins X, Y, and Z.” I think that’s the difference between faith and hope. When we believe in the atonement as an abstract concept, that’s faith. When you then realize it also applies to you, that your specific sins are forgiven, you truly “hope for a better world.” Enos had been taught to believe in God by his father and was pondering his father’s words when he came to know that
hissins were forgiven. That is when his guilt was finally swept away. Like others have said, God did not accept your deal for you to be sent to the Telestial Kingdom. If he had, he would have ceased to be God. You get the same deal that everyone else gets:
Quote:3 Nephi 9:14: Yea, verily I say unto you, if ye will come unto me ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me.
You and I don’t get to set the terms of our covenant. We come unto Christ, he receives us, cleases us of our sins, and brings us back to the presence of God.
Again, welcome and good luck.
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