Flashback to Proposition 8

[Anonymous]

I really enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts about Presidents Hinckley and Monson.

I’ve had tearful kids on the end of my bed this week asking me what a prophet is, and whether a God who doesn’t intervene when his prophet is dead wrong is really guiding this church by the hand. The blacks and priesthood essay broached the subject, but we need to have a get-real, open discussion at church. Aside from President Uchtdorf’s one reference about mistakes being made – and, by implication, more mistakes could be made – has there been meaningful talk about this at church?

The church asks a lot of people. It expects a response when it calls its members to action ala Prop 8, and I think that, in spite of Prop 8, members still want to respond in a positive way to a prophet’s call. It’s one of our distinctive traits as a church, but church needs to be more of a judgment-free zone where we can talk about the mechanics of grown-ups following the prophet. Like, I think it would be interesting to discuss a line somewhere in Dallin Oaks’ talks about the brethren giving counsel and members prayerfully determining if it applies to them. 😯

[Anonymous]

I was going to just ignore Sheldon’s question (because I knew that he had a pretty good idea of his own answer) but now that it is starting to get interesting…

Sheldon wrote:

why didn’t our “Prophet, Seer, and Revelatory” see this coming?

Because prophets usually can not see the future, do not speak face to face with God, or even really reveal anything.

LookingHard wrote:

But I do struggle with how the church members give what I wonder is an inconsiderate amount of weight to their statements/points of views. I do see this has some encouragement from leadership – especially the higher up you go.

In reading RSR I was surprised at how much JS did not know. I did not think that prophets knew everything. But JS as the prophet of the restoration with frequent visits from heavenly messages, I assumed had been different – some sort of super prophet. Surely he knew what he was doing. If he ever faced a critical juncture he could just ask God and receive a revelation on the subject.

I like reading historical fiction about Joseph and Emma. I find it fascinating as a window into the stories that we tell ourselves. One scene in one story had Emma raging against JS for the death of yet another of their children. JS had healed so many – why was he prevented from healing his own children. Joseph held her and comforted her. He said something to the effect that if she could only gaze into heaven and see the purposes of God then she would understand.

I found the following assumptions interesting:

1) JS had the power to heal.

2) JS knew what was going to happen even if he was prevented from changing it.

3) JS understood why things were happening – as in God’s purpose behind these things.

I also found it interesting that in the fictional account JS could not share this knowledge with Emma. She could only follow him, trusting that he was leading in the right direction because he had access to more divine knowledge and understanding than she did.

So bringing this back to the topic at hand. We, the membership up to and including the leadership, have created this expectation for our prophet. It brings a sense of security. I believe that it is a false sense of security but I am not sure that matters. Does a person’s life need to be meaningful and impactful or at the closing up scene is it simply enough that that individual feels that it was? The stories that we tell ourselves – are they just delusions or are they the building blocks of our lives?

[Anonymous]

Hinckley talked about the matter during the PH session of the October 1999 GC:

Why We Do Some of the Things We Do

[Anonymous]

Quote:

But why didn’t our “Prophet, Seer, and Revelatory” see this coming? This was a big deal, and it hurt the church from a PR standpoint big-time in California. If there was ever a time that the Lord should be “revealing” something to his Prophet, you would think this would be it!

Here’s a thought. Sometimes we learn a lesson before we make a mistake, and sometimes we learn a lesson because we make a mistake, and honestly, there are plenty of times that it’s the only way we can learn. Now you can say “Hey, Pres. Monson shouldn’t need to go through that to learn,” but maybe it’s also the church itself that needs to learn something from experience here.

Unfortunately, it seems to me (from my own vantage point) that it’s the exact same lesson-learning cycle we went through with the civil rights movement. That’s a bit discouraging.

[Anonymous]

I think I’ve finally figured out what bothers me most. If the prophet says “X”, them almost all active members (present company excepted) will say that “X” is the Lord’s will, because the Prophet speaks for the Lord. This concept that the prophet speaks for the Lord is perpetuated by our leaders, both local and GAs. So when the Prophet said to back the Prop 8 campaign, for the general membership, this was marching orders from the Lord himself. When the Prophet says only two earrings for women, that is what the Lord wants, not the cultural learning of a man born 80 something years ago.

Attending church each Sunday (yes, I’m active!), I hear that we have a Prophet that can “guide us in these Latter Days” I hear that he does this because he can see in the future (Google the word seer). So every time I then see a quote like “I don’t think he saw what was heading down the pike” I gets me going. I know our prophet cannot see in the future, and I think he would be the first to tell you that. But how do we get all the other leaders to stop perpetuating that ideal?

And finally, I’ll never again call out another person’s name from this board, so it will not be misconstrued as an insult. With the limitations of the written word, it is too easy to not convey the spirit with which the comment was made, so I’ll just not do it. I’m not a big fan of using the smilies :thumbdown:

[Anonymous]

Sheldon wrote:

Attending church each Sunday (yes, I’m active!), I hear that we have a Prophet that can “guide us in these Latter Days” I hear that he does this because he can see in the future (Google the word seer). So every time I then see a quote like “I don’t think he saw what was heading down the pike” I gets me going. I know our prophet cannot see in the future, and I think he would be the first to tell you that. But how do we get all the other leaders to stop perpetuating that ideal?

Yes, I think the title of “President” or “CEO” or even “first Elder” could be more accurrate without all the other baggage that might be associated with the term of prophet, seer, and revelator.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Yes, I think the title of “President” or “CEO” or even “first Elder” could be more accurrate without all the other baggage that might be associated with the term of prophet, seer, and revelator.

I agree. I wish the church would just refer to the head of the church as the president of the church, rather than the prophet. I would find it much easier to listen to the advice of a president, than listening to a prophet who might be speaking for God, or just offering his opinion, or whatever else. But, then we wouldn’t be able to say that God is still speaking to us through his prophets, I guess. 🙄

[Anonymous]

Holy Cow wrote:

Roy wrote:

Yes, I think the title of “President” or “CEO” or even “first Elder” could be more accurrate without all the other baggage that might be associated with the term of prophet, seer, and revelator.

I agree. I wish the church would just refer to the head of the church as the president of the church, rather than the prophet. I would find it much easier to listen to the advice of a president, than listening to a prophet who might be speaking for God, or just offering his opinion, or whatever else. But, then we wouldn’t be able to say that God is still speaking to us through his prophets, I guess. 🙄

I agree! But then we would have to change the words of the primary song to “follow the president, follow the president, follow the president, he knows the way”!

[emoji1]

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I think I’ve finally figured out what bothers me most. If the prophet says “X”, them almost all active members (present company excepted) will say that “X” is the Lord’s will, because the Prophet speaks for the Lord. This concept that the prophet speaks for the Lord is perpetuated by our leaders, both local and GAs. So when the Prophet said to back the Prop 8 campaign, for the general membership, this was marching orders from the Lord himself. When the Prophet says only two earrings for women, that is what the Lord wants, not the cultural learning of a man born 80 something years ago.

Well, people are dumb. That’s an easy one.

[Anonymous]

I think it is very common for individuals to make decisions or implement policy that at the time seems sound and correct. It is only with hindsight that we see more clearly.

[Anonymous]

Cadence wrote:

I think it is very common for individuals to make decisions or implement policy that at the time seems sound and correct. It is only with hindsight that we see more clearly.

Reminds me of the theme from the Goldbergs TV show:

Quote:

I’m twisted up inside, but nonetheless I feel the need to stay

I don’t know the future, but the past keeps getting clearer every day.

[Anonymous]

Agreeing with Hawk, too many people just don’t want to think for themselves or develop their own ideas. Too much work? Not enough self confidence?

FS, I have long thought that song should be changed to “follow the spirit” or even the idea of following the prophet’s example in following the spirit in our lives.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

FS, I have long thought that song should be changed to “follow the spirit.”

I might like it better, even though I have trouble understanding the Spirit.

[Anonymous]

Follow the spirit – I like it! It’ll never happen though.

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