- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I agree, nibbler. As I said, a smile and tongue-in-cheek. We have discussed the 14 Fundamentals in other threads extensively – and I am on record saying I think Elder Benson was trying to compete with Elder Maxwell in creating an alliterative number for the list. That also was tongue-in-cheek – but I think there is some truth in the alliteration attempt.
Frankly, the thing I like least about including it in the manual is that he didn’t give the talk while he was President. Coming from an apostle, the list sounds like flattery of the first order – and I’m not kidding when I say that. It actually would have been easy to justify not including it.
Just to say it directly, and realizing that the way it is framed is very problematic to me, we emphasize following and emulating Jesus and becoming like God more than we emphasize following the brethren. It’s not as lop-sided as I would like it to be, but it is tipped toward the right goal. Also, this isn’t a new thing. It’s all over in the Bible, as well – both Old and New Testaments, and it’s part and parcel of our modern Mormon history. Structurally, we are more Catholic than Protestant, even if our services are more Protestant (low church) than Catholic (low church). That doesn’t make it better, but it puts it in a more complete picture than implying it’s a uniquely Mormon thing.
Quote:Also, this isn’t a new thing. It’s all over in the Bible, as well – both Old and New Testaments, and it’s part and parcel of our modern Mormon history. Structurally, we are more Catholic than Protestant, even if our services are more Protestant (low church) than Catholic (low church). That doesn’t make it better, but it puts it in a more complete picture than implying it’s a uniquely Mormon thing.
I don’t know. I think we’re borderline cultish the way we teach about and “obey” the prophets. My Catholic friends certainly respect the pope but they are not obedient to him. In fact, they rarely mention him at all. The prophets in the Bible definitely played an important role, but the LDS prophets have taken the role of a prophet to a whole new level that I don’t believe was ever intended.
Haven wrote:The prophets in the Bible definitely played an important role, but the LDS prophets have taken the role of a prophet to a whole new level that I don’t believe was ever intended.
Other than Moses and a few other examples, many prophets seem to have been outside of the official structure of the church. The temple was overseen by the high priest. The church services where led by rabbi’s or teachers. Prophets could come from anywhere and call both the church and the kingdom to repentance.
In our model, being a prophet is a hierarchical title.
I dare say that it would be very difficult for us to recognise any prophet (no matter their prophetic gifts) that was not among the Q15.
Haven I am going to take your comment one step further – You wrote Quote:My Catholic friends certainly respect the pope but they are not obedient to him. In fact, they rarely mention him at all
It isn’t just your Catholic friends, I listen to Catholic radio a lot, I love the choirs – sometimes when I get in the car it’s already on the station and some local Priest, Arch so and so, etc is on and it’s crazy to listen to because the radio will say “Pope Francis said such and such, does he really want that.” On air Arch so and so says, “Well no, what Pope Francis meant was – if you were a whatever you can renounce that sin and rejoin us. He wasn’t saying you can come as you are.”
I told my husband it sounds like the Pope is really not considered much of an authority. I am trying to picture President Holland giving his The Book of Mormon is True talk, and the next day some Stake President or Regional Rep is on NPR and the DJ says, “Is the Book of Mormon True?” and the Stake President saying, “Well what he meant was, yes we have printed copies of a book that was dictated, it’s got some good stuff in it, but it really is up to you what you think of it.”
So yeah – we left leaning progressive people think the Pope is the cats meow. Catholics – it’s like never heard of him.
Haven, I didn’t mean that all modern Catholics revere the Pope and do whatever he says. I said that **structurally** we are more like Catholicism than like Proestantism – which means we have a more similar hierarchical structure to the Catholic Church than to Protestant churches. That’s factually indisputable – to the point that those structures have opposite names (high church vs. low church). Our worship services are low church, but the temple is high church – which, btw, causes distinct issues with how many members react to Sacrament Meeting vs. the temple. Even within Protestantism, many evangelical Christians preach a strong adherence to every word in the Bible (or, at least, nearly every word in the New Testament) – which, essentially, is a “follow the prophets” approach to understanding and obeying God.
Having said that, many devout Catholics view the Pope almost exactly like many devout Mormons view the President of the LDS Church: as God’s unique mouthpiece on Earth. In places like South and Central America, Italy, Spain, etc. that is obvious and, in many cases, what we would call extreme. Also, local priests are seen even more so than local Mormon Bishops in many areas.
As for the Bible, the Mosaic Law makes our own obsession with rules seem like a walk in the park on a sunny day in many ways. Many of Paul’s writings in the New Testament deal with rules and laws and commands – as much as he focuses on faith and grace in many places. Jesus’ words aren’t exactly a free-for-all when it comes to commandments and obedience. (“If ye love me, keep my commandments,” isn’t exactly indicative of a love fest.)
All I’m saying is that “follow the Brethren” absolutely is not a uniquely Mormon thing. I think we emphasize it too much, but it isn’t close to the extreme in comparison with many other religions or historically.
The Church just updated the Gospel Topics section of LDS.org. The following quote is found in the article Gospel Learning https://www.lds.org/topics/gospel-study?lang=eng Quote:The Word of God
Our search for truth will be fruitless if we neglect the Source of truth, God Himself. As we seek learning by study and also by faith, we continually turn to the word of God as found in the scriptures, the words of living prophets, and personal revelation through prayer.
Linked to it is my favorite present church President – Dieter F. Uchtdorf – The last 3rd is the out of the park message.
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/what-is-truth I am troubled by the “Follow the Prophet” slogan and the excessive praise of men. I enjoyed the lesson “Jesus Christ, Our Savior and Redeemer” from the Ezra Taft Benson manual. The following week’s lesson was not so enjoyable – it was “Joseph Smith, an Instrument in the Hands of the Lord.” President Benson said “It is generally understood that the faith of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the claim that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God…” Really? My faith rests on Jesus Christ.
He also said:
Quote:Thus did the Prophet Joseph Smith climax his earth life and fulfill the mortal part of his divinely appointed mission. This mortal mission, he made clear, was not to end until fully completed. Like the mission of the Savior, “a lamb slain before the foundation of the world,” Joseph was truly foreordained to his great mission.
When referring to “a lamb slain before the foundation of the world,” no one besides Jesus Christ should be mentioned.He called Joseph “a man of destiny, a man of character, a man of courage, a man of deep spirituality, a God-like prophet of the Lord, a truly noble and great one of all time.”
Here are other quotes from church presidents with emphasis added:
Quote:I honor and revere the name of Joseph Smith. I delight to hear it; I love it. I love
his doctrine. -Brigham Young (
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-47?lang=eng I thought, why must God’s nobility, the salt of the earth, the
most exaltedof the human family, and the most perfect types of all excellence, fall victims to the cruel, fiendish hate of incarnate devils? -John Taylor (
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-john-taylor/chapter-9?lang=eng No one that was as intimately acquainted with him as I was could find
anyfault with him, so far as his moral character was concerned. One day he called the brethren of the Twelve Apostles together and other prominent Elders of the Church to appoint them to their several labors and missions. Each sat and waited with much anxiety to hear the word of the Prophet concerning his future duties. They felt that they were in the presence of a
superior being. -Lorenzo Snow (
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-lorenzo-snow/chapter-23-the-prophet-joseph-smith?lang=eng In many places I have met people who have studied our faith. Some of them would say: “I could accept everything that you people teach were it not for this man Joseph Smith. If you would only eliminate him!” The day can never come when we will do that. As well might we undertake to leave out Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God.
-Heber J. Grant (
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-heber-j-grant/chapter-2?lang=eng
No wonder Mormons are accused of worshipping prophets as heroes!Shawn wrote:
President Benson said “It is generally understood that the faith of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the claim that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God…” Really? My faith rests on Jesus Christ.
Shawn, I’m with you on this. The prophet worship gets very old. I can’t stand when I hear “Praise to the Man.” When I go to church, I try to keep my focus on Jesus Christ and his gospel. I get very frustrated when there are weeks, sometimes multiples weeks in succession, when nothing is said in Sacrament Meeting, Sunday School, or Priesthood, about Jesus Christ. I’m happy to be teaching a Primary class now, with the lessons focused on the New Testament, because it’s very basic, and it’s all about Christ. To me, that’s what church is all about.
I acknowledge that I do hear more about following Heavenly Father and Jesus than prophets in church, but some things should never be said. Things like: -Joseph’s “private and public character was
unimpeachable” -Joseph and Hyrum were “the
most exaltedof the human family, and the most perfecttypes of all excellence” -No one “could find
anyfault with him, so far as his moral character was concerned” -His “life was
pure.” -People “felt that they were in the presence of a
superior being.” -He was “
God-like“ It really sounds like we are taught that Joseph was
perfect. It’s too bad that these things are currently in our offical manuals. We don’t even need a whole chapter about Joseph Smith every year. Excessive, unfounded praise of the character of a man is not part of the gospel or offical doctrine. Well, I guess it could be viewed as doctrine since it is reguarly taught. Of course, this is not only about Joseph. All past and present general authorities are spoken of with excessive veneration.
It doesn’t seem like any general authority is doing or saying anything to curb the hero worship, except for President Uchtdorf. I really hope tradition is tossed out and he becomes the next president somehow.
I don’t know what to do with this information. I just need to follow the Spirit.
I take those statements in the time they were said with an understanding that those who said them either knew Joseph and loved him deeply or had parents who fit that description. I see them more like eulogies than anything else – and I can deal with hyperbole in eulogies. I don’t like the impact those statements still are having, and I don’t like people now seeing through totally rose-colored glasses, but I understand and even can respect the original statements.
Ray, I would probably be okay with the hyperbole if the statements were not repeated in our offical lesson manuals. I do appreciate your level-headedness regarding this. Holy Cow wrote:Shawn wrote:
President Benson said “It is generally understood that the faith of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the claim that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God…” Really? My faith rests on Jesus Christ.
Shawn, I’m with you on this. The prophet worship gets very old. I can’t stand when I hear “Praise to the Man.” When I go to church, I try to keep my focus on Jesus Christ and his gospel. I get very frustrated when there are weeks, sometimes multiples weeks in succession, when nothing is said in Sacrament Meeting, Sunday School, or Priesthood, about Jesus Christ. I’m happy to be teaching a Primary class now, with the lessons focused on the New Testament, because it’s very basic, and it’s all about Christ. To me, that’s what church is all about.
+1
:thumbup: Yep, Shawn, the inclusion of them in the manuals is where the problem lies. I attended Gospel Principles class with my TBM DW this past Sunday. I don’t remember how this came up, but my DW spoke up and brought up the point that we are assured that “the prophet will never lead us astray!” :crazy: Bless her heart. I didn’t have the guts to bring up the fact that I don’t believe this at all, either in public or in private.:silent: I think most of us could bring up several examples of when prophets (even modern-day prophets in GC) have led us astray, or at least said things that were not true or correct. Not everything that comes out of the mouth of a prophet is true or good. Prophets are human too.
This plus the ETB lesson on Flooding the Earth with the Book of Mormon. It was a long day last Sunday!
:yawn:
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.