For those that know the sticky past but remain stalwart.

[Anonymous]

I again find myself feeling so grateful for this forum and the complete honesty of thought and opinion being shared. I have searched many a topic and find my heart being consoled and strengthened with each thread I have read. Thank you.

As I read the ideas presented on this site, I see a strong commitment to the gospel from many, in spite of what you know from early history. It seems that this commitment to the gospel takes on a new form. Forgive me for jumping to some conclusions, and please correct me if I am incorrect, but it seems that many who would consider themselves active Mormons, on this site, have found a way to make peace with the historical findings. You may not have clear answers and are fully aware that sometimes the evidence is quite stacked on the “icky” side (to be technical) However, you seem to have compartmentalized this information into a place that is separate from your testimony. The churches strength comes from it’s current value in your life rather than “I know this is the true church, led by God’s prophet”. Am I correct in making that assumption?

I feel myself heading in this direction of life value rather than belief of truth. If you view the church in this way, what have been your experiences with the members? Are you upfront with how you feel when a topic that you question is brought up by a home teacher or visiting teacher? I have no interest in forcing historical knowledge onto unsuspecting members…but there lies my struggle. I have loved living as a Mormon. I believe the value system is for me and I connect with the teachings of deity, after-life, purpose, etc. The gospel teachings, to me, are beautiful. But the history of how these teachings came to us is, quite simply- a mess.

On any given Sunday, I am forced to cringe or tune out from the TBM views of “Joseph Smith was martyred because people didn’t like his religious teachings”, “the First vision was pure and beautiful”, “this is God’s one true kindgom on earth”, etc. I cannot accept those ideas any longer. How do I attend church and call myself an active member when I feel deceitful. Either I am keeping historical truth from people who have been going the course of “blind” faith (I hate that term but can’t think of a better one right now)- Which to me is deceitful. Or I keep quiet when sticky topics are brought up, not being true to myself- Also deceitful.

Oyvey…

[Anonymous]

The struggle between being completely honest with other and being honest with yourself is a big challenge for me. I don’t want to cause pain to others but it’s hard to set there and hear things that are just not accurate. Some days I can really make it work but other days I want to just walk away. The church has given me so much over the years that is good, that I don’t want to loose and I have seen where other that have left the church have gone off the deep end and I don’t want to go there either. For now I put up with the sleepless nights and each month before I give my HC talk I think I can’t do this any more but afterward when I feel like I pulled it off and was true to myself and still hopefully helped others feel better about their lives, I think I can do it a little longer.

[Anonymous]

FiguringItOut wrote:

However, you seem to have compartmentalized this information into a place that is separate from your testimony. The churches strength comes from it’s current value in your life rather than “I know this is the true church, led by God’s prophet”. Am I correct in making that assumption?

Mostly. I don’t know if I compartmentalize it. My beliefs are part of me. But I do see the church’s value as helping me better myself.

Quote:

If you view the church in this way, what have been your experiences with the members? Are you upfront with how you feel when a topic that you question is brought up by a home teacher or visiting teacher?

It depends. Most of the time I keep my thoughts to myself. When speaking with other members I use the language they’re used to and the “stories” they’re comfortable with. Jesus used stories to teach. Yes, people likely knew they were made up. But the principle is the same. Stories help our minds understand principles. So I use the stories of Mormonism to speak.

Quote:

I have no interest in forcing historical knowledge onto unsuspecting members…but there lies my struggle. I have loved living as a Mormon. I believe the value system is for me and I connect with the teachings of deity, after-life, purpose, etc. The gospel teachings, to me, are beautiful. But the history of how these teachings came to us is, quite simply- a mess.

Then don’t. :lolno: When they’re ready for it, they’ll seek it out.

Quote:

On any given Sunday, I am forced to cringe or tune out from the TBM views of “Joseph Smith was martyred because people didn’t like his religious teachings”, “the First vision was pure and beautiful”, “this is God’s one true kindgom on earth”, etc. I cannot accept those ideas any longer. How do I attend church and call myself an active member when I feel deceitful. Either I am keeping historical truth from people who have been going the course of “blind” faith (I hate that term but can’t think of a better one right now)- Which to me is deceitful. Or I keep quiet when sticky topics are brought up, not being true to myself- Also deceitful.

Oyvey…

For me, time solved this problem. For a while I felt this way. But eventually I was able to see things from a different perspective. I don’t tell my wife a certain dress makes her look fat. i don’t tell my kids or other people’s kids there’s no santa (sorry if I just ruined it for you…) I don’t tell Seven Day Adventist that their founder, Ellen White was a false prophet. And I don’t tell Mormons their stories are wrong. But neither do I teach things that are blatantly wrong. Just try to have empathy for those at church. Realize that you were there not too long ago. Be happy that they are able to find joy and peace in life. And feel free to stand up when the spirit prompts you to.

[Anonymous]

I’m not trying to degrade the mindset of many “traditional” members when I say this – but it may be helpful for you to view some of their statements in the same way you would a child on the playground saying “my dad is stronger than yours — my dad is the strongest man in the world!” Would you feel the need to set that child straight?

The important part of what those people are saying – in their eyes and heart – is not the same as what you’re hearing. I think that is the most important part to intellectually and spiritually digest; when they express their faith you hear a literal statement that you feel is in need of verification – while they are simply trying to express the state of their heart. If it was all about verifiable details it wouldn’t be church, and I am not demeaning with that statement. It’s like going to a fine restaurant expecting to learn about the latest details on healthy nutrition, it’s not the place and it’s not going to happen. When we learn to enjoy church for what it is and not for what we wish it was we make a leap forward in our compatibility.

[Anonymous]

The analogy of walking up to other people’s children and telling them there is no Santa is apt.

Of course there are children, once they don’t believe in Santa that want to go around and tell everyone they meet. It is a natural instinct, but not looked upon kindly by others.

There is an amazing woman in my ward who has a very literal faith (Jesus drank grape juice, not wine, etc) there are many things she believes in that just aren’t true. However she clings to it, and her faith is a fire that has pulled her through difficulties that I can’t imagine. She has constant struggles with her family and doggedly works to do her best for them, and her faith is what gets her through. I enjoy listening to her testimonies and am inspired by them. The truth in this situation is the power and hope that her faith gives her, that is very real and very literal and listening to her speak is one of the reasons I go to church.

I am careful in my statements in church to stick to things that I do believe while not challenging the beliefs of others, finding common ground, just as we are asked to do when discussing the our religion with members of other religions. When someone says something look for the truth in it. Ex. Joseph Smith was studying and praying about which church to join when he had a powerful spiritual experience that changed to course of his life and inspired him to establish a different church entirely.

[Anonymous]

I would not say I had a commitment to the gospel. I do not even believe it is based on any Devine origins. Almost completely the work of creative minds. What I do believe is that my life is enveloped by the church. It is so intertwined with the structure of the church it is impossible to remove myself from it completely. So I do what many in my situation do. I try and find the value where I can. I take the good and dump the crappy stuff.

I am rather upfront with leaders when asked what I think but I do not go out of my way to tell them or bear false testimony of my beliefs. I just hang out at church doing what I can to help when asked.

Frankly I think it takes some real effort or denial maybe to learn the messy stuff about the history along with watching how the church functions and still believe it is what it claims even to a small degree.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

I cannot accept those ideas any longer. How do I attend church and call myself an active member when I feel deceitful.

I agree with what others have said above and will add a few thoughts. One I’ve said many times is that the person with the most awareness in a situation bears the most responsibility. Most people are imprecise in their words, and they are imprecise in their thoughts. Very few people are interested in deep thinking. And it’s not that it really makes life so much better either – right? But some of us are more compelled than others to dig and to read and to discuss. Let’s be who we are and let other people be who they are.

I am very much a believer in being authentic. I never say things I don’t mean (although I have a wicked sarcastic streak, so that’s the exception). To be authentic, though, you really have to stop caring what people think of you. One thing you will find is that people are drawn to you if you are authentic and honest. But here’s an example of how to do that and how not to do that. Let’s take the example of someone saying JS was essentially perfect or above reproach:

– NOT GREAT. “Actually, did you know he had 33 wives and bullied Emma into agreeing with him on it, and then when word got out, he abused his power to cover it up, eventually leading to his martyrdom?”

– MUCH BETTER. “I’d be careful about thinking of any human being as perfect. Everyone has to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. JS, like everyone, was far from perfect.”

[Anonymous]

I think the church is more aware now than ever of it’s history and that it can be troubling to so many of us. They are making great strides in dealing with it and walking a tightrope that people won’t fall away because of it. They know and are IMO, against hiding it any longer, the problem is how to expose it and not lead many out the door to heaven knows what. They believe it’s true, somehow a witness has told them this, maybe they think like myself, that the church is perhaps adopted because of the good it does. I have many days where I’ll want to leave, and then something holds onto me. Is it fear of the unknown, and of being alone? Possibly, but there is something and I’m just figuring out if it’s God holding me to the religion or not. I keep thinking I might just have to leave for good and see for myself, come what may. There are those that say that it’s good to doubt because it forces one to find out how strong their testimony is or if they even had one. That’s me right now. The church is exposing most of the history but not all, how much easier it’d be if they would and then members like us could go to church and not cringe, or feel the church is deceitful. One thing that comes to mind is the new direction of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute. Alot of people that are authors and historians, endorse the new direction, the list is enlightening, they are….

■Philip L. Barlow, Leonard J. Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture, Utah State University

■Richard L. Bushman, Gouverneur Morris Professor of History, emeritus, Columbia University

■Douglas J. Davies, Professor of Theology and Religion, Durham University

■Eric A. Eliason, Professor of English, Brigham Young University

■James E. Faulconer, Richard L. Evans Professor of Religious Understanding, Professor of Philosophy, Brigham Young University

■Kathleen Flake, Associate Professor of American Religious History, Vanderbilt University

■Terryl L. Givens, James A. Bostwick Chair of English and Professor of Literature and Religion, University of Richmond

■Sarah Barringer Gordon, Arlin M. Adams Professor of Constitutional Law and Professor of History, University of Pennsylvania

■Matthew J. Grow, Director of Publications, Church History Department, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

■Grant Hardy, Professor of History and Religious Studies, University of North Carolina—Asheville

■David F. Holland, Associate Professor of History, University of Nevada, Las Vegas

■Laurie F. Maffly-Kipp, Professor and Chair, Department of Religious Studies, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

■Patrick Q. Mason, Howard W. Hunter Chair of Mormon Studies, Claremont Graduate University

■Quincy D. Newell, Associate Professor of Religious Studies, University of Wyoming

■Grant Underwood, Professor of History, Brigham Young University

Some on the list (bolded) have been featured on the Mormonstories Podcasts. I think the church backs the truths to come out through people like them and many others. It will take baby steps.

[Anonymous]

Tacenda – I think your right. In a small way the church has done it in the past, too, but now the push or need is greater. I was always a Truman Madsen fan, I remember listening to him speak one time and wondering why he wasn’t a GA – he just seemed to know so much especially about Jewish customs, Christ’s time etc. Anyway as I wondered about it – the idea came to me that if he was a GA there wouldn’t be time for him to do his research and study, nor time to give the lessons and talks.

I think the same thing applies to the list you presented. I was just thinking the other day I need to get Grant Hardy’s book off my shelf and read it. Seeing the name on your list jogged my memory. Thanks,

[Anonymous]

I think the posters before me have given some excellent advice.

I can remember how angry I felt in my ‘discovery phase.’ I was hurting and wanted to correct every simplification and incorrect statement. I’m glad I but my tongue more often than not. I’m glad I didn’t burn bridges.

You have a choice. You can stay and celebrate being part of the community of saints. Or you can leave and find a better way of living your life. Having seen the impact leaving has on a few people in my life I would concede that sometimes it is the right thing to do for that person. Even if you do this, it would be better if you did it in a dignified way that doesn’t ‘take people with you.’ My wife has made this decision and, though it surprises some members when I say it, she is happier as a result. Maybe she will return to church one day. Or maybe she’s found a more effective vehicle for travelling the path.

What you would struggle to do is be both a strongly contrary voice and an active member. There’s no need to correct everything and everyone. There’s no need to impose your new knowledge on others. It hurts, there’s no reason to be the source of that hurt.

Sorry if this sounds like a lecture. It’s not intended to.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

some on the list (bolded) have been featured on the Mormonstories Podcasts. I think the church backs the truths to come out through people like them and many others. It will take baby steps.

Tacenda, Don’t forget to include in bold Grant Hardy for his participation on Mormonstories (episode 250-251)….even though his wife did most of the talking.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

Quote:

I cannot accept those ideas any longer. How do I attend church and call myself an active member when I feel deceitful.

I agree with what others have said above and will add a few thoughts. One I’ve said many times is that the person with the most awareness in a situation bears the most responsibility. Most people are imprecise in their words, and they are imprecise in their thoughts. Very few people are interested in deep thinking. And it’s not that it really makes life so much better either – right? But some of us are more compelled than others to dig and to read and to discuss. Let’s be who we are and let other people be who they are.

I am very much a believer in being authentic. I never say things I don’t mean (although I have a wicked sarcastic streak, so that’s the exception). To be authentic, though, you really have to stop caring what people think of you. One thing you will find is that people are drawn to you if you are authentic and honest. But here’s an example of how to do that and how not to do that. Let’s take the example of someone saying JS was essentially perfect or above reproach:

– NOT GREAT. “Actually, did you know he had 33 wives and bullied Emma into agreeing with him on it, and then when word got out, he abused his power to cover it up, eventually leading to his martyrdom?”

– MUCH BETTER. “I’d be careful about thinking of any human being as perfect. Everyone has to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. JS, like everyone, was far from perfect.”

I really like this approach.

[Anonymous]

FiguringItOut wrote:

How do I attend church and call myself an active member when I feel deceitful?

The history doesn’t bother me too much – I have a past that isn’t all pretty – but I’m not that anymore.

What bothers me most are the obvious cognitive distortions that lead to mental illness, like excessive fear and shame.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2009/15-common-cognitive-distortions/

It really helps me to redefine gospel terms…

IE:

Celestial: Christ/Divine Consciousness

Commandments; (2 types… scripture/socially learned… & spiritually learned)

Covenants with God: Covenants with LOVE

God: Love

Kingdom of God: Spiritual connection within, realm of God within us (Luke 17:20)

Love: Desiring & striving for what’s best (through trial & error)

Sin: Incorrect thought & related emotions and behavior

Repent: Correct one’s thinking & related emotions and behavior – turning to God

Salvation: healed by correcting one’s thinking

Satan/Adversary: unhealed part of us, incorrect thinking that ultimately causes pain

Temple: body, mind & soul… or a place to connect spiritually

[Anonymous]

This is a great thread. Thanks for everyone’s loving and wise responses.

I always think of my personal responsibility and integrity of how i habdle myself despite what others do and the golden rule of wanting to reciprocate how I want to be treated. To me…this has become the true purpose of the gospel. What I truly believe, what I do in accordance with my belief, and how I love others as I do it.

The church history and what others experience are but details that influence my thinking and are not unimportant, but are not all important.

Mackay’s wife has made a choice. I would hope members would respect her for that and love her for that. Therefore, I should have the same respect and love for members who have their own choices and views and are sure they are right with their views. If it works for them, makes them happy, and makes them fun to be around while we have Saturday get togethers to make our sons’ pinewood derby cars…great!

Becoming comfortable staying active in church and having a different view of the details of history or the “truth” claims shared by others is all about me becoming comfortable with myself and who I am and the story I create in my head to help me live a happy life. It has little to do with details in a book or words that come out of others’ mouths.

Be patient with yourself and go slow. I think there is a transition period from literal thinking and more mature views. Frustration, guilt, doubt, even anger seem to be part of the process. Let the process run its course. Learn from it. Look for the kind of responses you can give that are like Hawkgrrl’s loving and wise response. There is a better way than trying to make others think like you think. I believe there is a place for us to stay and be part of the group despite thinking differently.

I believe Pres Uchtdorf’s message in priesthood was teaching this very thought. And that is not a sermon to members about different fringe thinkers…it is a message to the fringe thinkers also. It starts to help a person see that even the other devout active members of the ward are really not so different. Staying becomes your choice, regardless of others, and regardless of history as we think we know it know.

[Anonymous]

FiguringItOut wrote:

…it seems that many who would consider themselves active Mormons, on this site, have found a way to make peace with the historical findings. You may not have clear answers and are fully aware that sometimes the evidence is quite stacked on the “icky” side (to be technical) However, you seem to have compartmentalized this information into a place that is separate from your testimony. The churches strength comes from it’s current value in your life rather than “I know this is the true church, led by God’s prophet”. Am I correct in making that assumption?

I would not say information has been compartmentalized for me. I am currently making peace with church history and incorporating it with my testimony. My testimony of Joseph Smith was nearly shattered completely. He was hanging by a thread, and the thread was the Book of Mormon. I think I am aware of the historical issues people get concerned about now, but I keep thinking “Joseph was still a prophet.” There were times in his life when he didn’t seem like a prophet (1838), and then he would emerge as one again (the healings in Nauvoo).

FiguringItOut wrote:

On any given Sunday, I am forced to cringe or tune out from the TBM views of “Joseph Smith was martyred because people didn’t like his religious teachings”…

For what it’s worth, I completely believe he was murdered because of his religious beliefs. Sure, the Nauvoo city council deemed the Nauvoo Expositor a public nuisance and Joseph, as mayor of Nauvoo, had the city marshall destroy the press. Would that drive a mob of 200 men to kill a man? No. It all comes down to the religion. People hated him for the reasons cited in the one issue of the Nauvoo Expositor.

[Author]

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