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As a disclaimer: I truly believe that polygamy was and is not of God but mistakenly introduced by JS in his haste to restore the “primitive” church. I abhor the idea. I feel polygamy is demeaning to the institution of marriage, devalues women and creates anxiety, confusion and anger in many peoples hearts and lives both in and out of the Church. It creates a huge PR stumbling block for non-LDS people, thwarts those investigating our church, hampers missionary work, etc. I believe the Lord is not the Author of confusion and polygamy was the ignition that led JS to burn the printing press that got him arrested, sent to Carthage and killed. Therefor my firm belief that polygamy is not doctrinal or of God. ENTER MODERN DAY:
I divorced my 1st wife after her infidelity at 10 years of marriage solemnized in the Mesa, AZ temple. 5 years later, after being remarried, my wife and I wanted to be sealed. Our SP informed me that I checked the box for a sealing CLEARANCE not a sealing CANCELLATION. He reminded me that if my ex wife repents, the Lord will remember her sins no more and our sealing will still be valid. He again asked my current wife if she was ok with that. She readily said she wasn’t and I deafeningly agreed with her. He said he thought so and
put in the request for a CANCELLATIONfor me and a cancellation for my wife (who was also previously sealed to her ex in the temple). We both received our letters from SLC the same day. My wife obviously received her CANCELLATION and I only received a CLEARANCE. Rather than ruin our scheduled plans to be sealed later that month…we went ahead and were sealed. So now, on the records of the Church, I am a spiritual polygamist. Against my free will and choice. I am angry and disgusted by two things. One: that I am involved in any way shape of form with polygamy….two: My free agency to determine if I would like to be in a spiritual polygamist situation was not honored by the Brethren.
My current SP (we moved to another stake fur unrelated reasons) is scratching his head and said he would appeal. President Hinckley stated in his interview with Larry King on CNN ( -Larry King Live — Gordon Hinckley: Distinguished Religious Leader of the Mormons–Aired September 8, 1998 – 9:00 p.m. ET) regarding polygamy…
” I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal.”.If that is the case, why am I forced to spiritually be attached to it? Even if I am wrong and polygamy is of God…. (Heaven helps us all) and we have to live it in the hereafter… (A kid rock song is popping into my head…’if heaven is a lot like polygamy….send me to hell or Colorado City…it’ll be all the same to me.’) then the Church should let me make the mistake of removing myself from that plural sealing. God didn’t stop Eve from eating the apple because free agency is what this life was built around. Correct? President Hinckley states earlier in the interview with Larry King:” The president of the church, the man who occupied the position which I occupy today, went before the people, said he had, oh, prayed about it, worked on it, and had received from the Lord a revelation that it was time to stop, to discontinue it then. That’s 118 years ago. It’s behind us. < Not true---ask me...I'm proof...I can show you the letter. BTW my CLEARANCE letter says NOT to keep it but destroy it. Why?>
Larry King: But when the word is mentioned, when you hear the word, you think Mormon, right?
Gordon B. Hinckley: You do it mistakenly.
< Larry isn't mistaken. I'm Mormon and a spiritual polygamist. >They have no connection with us whatever. < They have every connection to us spiritually with regard to polygamy. >They don’t belong to the church. There are actually no Mormon fundamentalists < unless you consider spiritual polygamy fundamentally true and of God >.So when the church leaders get frustrated when asked by media about polygamy and our Church and they repeat “we have nothing to do, whatever” (Pres. Hinckley, Larry King same interview) with polygamy….they are misleading the public and the members.
WE ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE IN POLYGAMY AND WE BELIEVE IN LIVING IT TODAY….just not legally…but spiritually…which is more important anyway in the grand scheme of things correct? I reference D&C 132. The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage IS Plural Marriage. Your thougths?
Sincerely, the Modern Day Unwilling Spiritual LDS Polygamist.
Still working out my thoughts about this as well, so not sure how much help I will be, but I did think I would share a perspective that someone had regarding the three degrees of glory within the celestial kingdom itself. I know that whoever presented the idea was a guest on Mormon Stories Podcast, but I cannot recall what episode it was on, if anyone can remind me that would be great. Anyway, this person held this particular idea in relation to potential changes in regard to gay marriage. They had said, we believe there are three different kingdoms essentially, within the celestial kingdom itself. One was for the single people we know, and the other was for the married people. I have heard some people say the third is actually the single people split into kingdom by sex, so one kingdom for single females, one kingdom for single males, and the other for married couples. However, this particular guest had indicated that there is no solid doctrine on that idea, so he proposed something new. He had suggested what if that middle kingdom was for gay married couples. As I listened to this I thought to myself about the doctrines on polygamy and how there is so much talk in the early days of the church about polygamy being essential to gain celestial glory. What if perhaps polygamists were in the first kingdom, monogamists were in the second kingdom and singles were in the third kingdom. None of this is doctrine, just my own thoughts building upon the thoughts of this other individual on John’s podcast, but it all seems very tidy and linear to me if you are 1. single in the first kingdom, 2. married to one person in the second kingdom and then 3. married to multiple people in the third kingdom.
I also think about how we are taught that wherever we end up in heaven is where we will be most comfortable, and will therefor be happy. So if you and I are unhappy being polygamists, we would not have to be in the 3rd kingdom. I also think about something I was taught in regards to judgement day. The idea was that it will not be God and Christ that keep us out of heaven, it will be ourselves. We will have Christ beckoning us to come to him, and us not coming because we are not ready, and we will therefor decide our own kingdom or placement, knowing where we fit. Perhaps the same thing will be of polygamy. Even though you are sealed to these two women, I can hardly imagine God forcing you to live in that state if it makes you unhappy, I would imagine him asking whom you wanted to be with for eternity and then placing you in that 2nd glory.
Once again, just speculation and talking here, but if anyone has any doctrine based ideas or references from GA in regards to what I have said above I would love to see my purely speculated ideas somewhat validated. It at least gives me some peace thinking that we do not have to be polygamists in the next life.
It’s a lot like allowing widowers to be sealed to another woman. There’s a double-standard when it comes to widows but that’s the subject of another discussion. I can get behind Hinckley to some degree, his comments are limited to the more traditional view of what it means to be a polygamist: a man civilly married to multiple women at the same time (where divorce and death annul civil marriages). I don’t think most people outside the church consider spiritual polygamy. I don’t think people outside the church would consider themselves a polygamist for marrying after the death of a spouse.
That said the Mormon church is unique in that regard. Marriages are not annulled when one person dies and apparently it’s difficult to annul a sealing in cases of divorce. Something tells me that it’s going to be hard to cancel the sealing to your first wife
until she is about to remarry,I think that’s the policy. I agree with you though, a person’s wishes should come before any policy. Best of luck getting things cleared up. Frustrating policy. Hopefully the appeal will go through. Trying to delete a duplicate post removed both. The following is from foodoctor33:
Quote:Thanks guys for your response. I have heard the whole “God won’t make you be with someone you won’t be happy with” response many times. It’s the most popular. My response to this is…why would the Church subvert my free agency over policy? If God isn’t going to recognize it in the hereafter…why force an unwilling participant to continue to live it causing real doubts of faith HERE and NOW. What good is policy if it leads many times to spiritual death or injury now? Why not honor my free agency and then say the old “god will sort it out in the end.” ???
MomofTwo: you stated
I also think about how we are taught that wherever we end up in heaven is where we will be most comfortable, and will therefor be happy. So if you and I are unhappy being polygamists, we would not have to be in the 3rd kingdom.
. While I truly feel none of us have ANY clue about what Heaven is or will be like….but we are taught that the HIGHEST decree of the Celestial Kingdom is the only place where you can have eternal families and increase…the other levels or kingdoms do not have that luxury. I personally think that is silly. But if it is the way it will be then ….que Kid Rock!!!
Nibbler: To your point. If you read the transcript…Hinckley states unequivocally that Polygamy was stopped by revelation. He doesn’t admit what we, IN the church know (as I am realizing), and that is ….WE BELIEVE IN POLYGAMY….the only reason we don’t still practice it is due to the law and government pressure and threats of seizure of Church property by the government. (However, polygamy was against the law prior to JS introducing it…that’s a different story). To say we have nothing to do with it. It isn’t legal. It is not doctrinal is only a half truth and serves to skirt the real issue. It’s illegal because society deems it IMMORAL and looks down on it. I know of new members who leave the church because after being told we don’t practice it…they find out we still believe in the PRINCIPLE and it is in our D&C 132 to confirm it. Open reality and honesty would help many inside the Church from finding this out like me…when I’m forced to live it….instead, open teaching about it’s eternal requirement is necessary. We must stop lying and skirting around the issue. MORMONS ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE IN POLYGAMY.
I just know I will never be OK with it. I refuse to live it spiritually or otherwise. If ever asked to engage in it…that will be the end of my affiliation with the organization…not the gospel of Jesus Christ…but the organization. If my appeal comes back…NO CANCELLATION…it might be the end of my membership in the LDS organization. AN organization that forced its doctrine unwillingly on others is not one I can continue to be a part of. I pray for the other result…for my spiritual health and my wife and daughters sake.
Ugg.
Thanks for your responses
foodoctor33
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:32 am
My blunt answer is simple: There is NO forced polygamy in the modern LDS Church – in mortality or in eternity.
There is NOTHING in our theology or teachings that says two people will be forced to remain married if one or both of them doesn’t want to remain married.I don’t know a single active member who believes marriage will be forced, although I am certain there are some exceptions that prove the rule. Having said that:
I also understand the Church’s hesitancy to void a sealing when the leadership really does believe, deeply and sincerely, that God won’t force anything on anyone who doesn’t want it. It’s quite easy for someone who feels that way and hasn’t had to struggle personally with wanting a sealing cancelled to not understand the difficulty others have with not allowing a cancellation.
The problem is that this view makes it really hard for people to understand the angst and frustration felt by people who want to cancel a sealing and don’t have the same degree of faith that a non-cancelled sealing can be cancelled by God in the next life. Given our theology of communal sealing, as opposed to individual salvation, this is not a simple issue – and it’s really important to recognize and admit how complicated it is.
I agree Ray and you make some very good points. I think the one unfortunate situation is that women and men are treated differently with the current policy regarding cancellations, and that difference gives the appearance of next-life polygamy. Absolutely, Orson. That is a HUGE issue, imo. Allowing women to be sealed to all of their husbands after they die was a move in the right direction, but: 1) lots of members don’t know about that policy; 2) there still is the inequity involved in allowing multiple sealings for men in this life and limiting that for women until after they die.
Again, I like the new policy over the older one, but I wish the policy was the same for both sexes – with an explicit, unambiguous statement that we don’t know who will choose whom after death so we seal all marriages and let the people involved make those choices.
Ray, I appreciate your response. Very cerebral and well stated. While the GA’s may be hesitant about unsealing someone…what is the fear? Cancelling will result in 2 scenarios (if this is the way of heaven)
Scenario #1: You allow me to have my Sealing cancelled…because afterall…it isn’t the Church’s sealing…It’s MY sealing. Result: A happy guy who feels like his free agency is honored and one less faith stumbling block removed. End result: I have to get resealed to her in Heaven along with BILLIONS of other people…what’s one more???
Scenario #2: You don’t allow me to have MY sealing cancelled….you annul free agency…you potentially lose a faithful LDS guy who spent 41 years in the service of his faith. And the Lord disregards it anyway according to your POV Ray. What a waste!!!!!!!!
In the end, I agree with Nibbler…
Quote:I agree with you though, a person’s wishes should come before any policy.
And Orson, it’s not the policy
Quote:that gives the appearance of next-life polygamy.
That is Church
DOCTRINEaccording to the first 6-7 prophets of our Chruch and the entire substance of D&C 132. I believe the Church needs to abandon the whole Heaven polygamy idea as a whole. Polygamy, besides creating numbers of people in the Church, has been a very large NET negative for our church both within and outside of the Church. If we are always told that “God will sort it out in the end” and “we aren’t sure how it is all done”….STOP the stumbling block and let’s deal with it in Heaven.
My two cents.
foodoctor33 wrote:
And Orson, it’s not the policyQuote:that gives the appearance of next-life polygamy.
That is Church
DOCTRINEaccording to the first 6-7 prophets of our Chruch and the entire substance of D&C 132.
I don’t disagree that it has been taught as doctrine until within my lifetime. I was reflecting the current LDS.org statement that monogamy is the rule unless commanded otherwise, and how with the current policy men & women are given different treatment around sealing cancellation requests – that the current policy appears to conflict with the current stance.
I’m with ya Remember, even back when polygamy was presented by the leadership as absolutely necessary only a small minority of the membership was polygamous – since the large majority of the membership didn’t want it in this life or after. There was some weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth (and splintering) when the Manifesto was announced, but there were even more members who nodded and said, “Good.” Eternal polygamy for everyone is not a current teaching of the LDS Church. Now, we simply say, in essence, as you’ve pointed out:
Quote:It will all work out in the end for the best.
I’m okay with that view, since, for example, it allows people who have loved more than one spouse deeply and would view trying to choose only one in the next life as their own version of Hell to hold onto hope that, somehow, it will work out in the end in a way that they will understand and accept – while also allowing me to believe that my wife will be my only eternal companion. I prefer expansive over restrictive, generally speaking, even with a topic like this.
Also, just to say it directly, when we insist that our view is the one and only true view when it comes to this topic, how in the world can we complain when more orthodox members insist that their view on some other topic is the one and only true view? I think we simply must try to see if there is a way to be as inclusive as possible on every topic if we aren’t going to be hypocrites when it comes to our own “hot button issues”. That doesn’t mean we have to accept anything and everything; it simply means we have to try really hard to understand everything well enough to see if there is an option that is more inclusive than we would tend to use as our natural default.
foodoctor33 wrote:Our SP informed me that I checked the box for a sealing CLEARANCE not a sealing CANCELLATION. He reminded me that if my ex wife repents, the Lord will remember her sins no more and our sealing will still be valid. He again asked my current wife if she was ok with that. She readily said she wasn’t and I deafeningly agreed with her. He said he thought so and
put in the request for a CANCELLATIONfor me and a cancellation for my wife (who was also previously sealed to her ex in the temple). We both received our letters from SLC the same day. My wife obviously received her CANCELLATION and I only received a CLEARANCE. Rather than ruin our scheduled plans to be sealed later that month…we went ahead and were sealed. So now, on the records of the Church, I am a spiritual polygamist. Against my free will and choice. I am angry and disgusted by two things. One: that I am involved in any way shape of form with polygamy….two: My free agency to determine if I would like to be in a spiritual polygamist situation was not honored by the Brethren.
Your SP was wrong when they let you make the “Cancelation” box on the form. Only Women can mark the cancelation box, and men must mark the “clearance” box. It is clear in the instructions, as I have filled them out many times. You have NO CHOICE in the matter.
The problem I run into is that the whole idea of multiple marriages after death leads to a lot of complicated situations that local leaders can’t answer. People then resort to “God will have to sort all that out in the next life”. For me, it dilutes the whole idea of sealing power on earth and the order associated with the gospel and the world when we have to rely on the old “God will work it out in the end” scenario. What better alternative is there, SD? That is a serious question. What other answer is there for people in many radically different situations?
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