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Old-Timer wrote:
What better alternative is there, SD?
That is a serious question. What other answer is there for people in many radically different situations?
In the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
:Yep, not satisfying at all for lots of people – and just as open to interpretation differences as most things. 
There is no universally good answer, so I am fine with, “Marry whomever you want and hope the next life will be what you want when you get there.”
Old-Timer wrote:What better alternative is there, SD?
That is a serious question. What other answer is there for people in many radically different situations?
A better alternative is to actually know. Given our claims to divine authority, one would think there would be clear answers to certain questions that, apparently (according to our theology) are so central to salvation — as well as a clearer idea of what it’ll be like in that better, eternal world for which we all hope.
Fine – so what would be better to actually know? What answer would you like more that wouldn’t crush many other people’s hopes? I do this all the time in classes, so please understand: It’s one thing to say we want to know something, but it’s another thing entirely having to face the possibility of one answer we don’t like or that crushes other people’s deepest hopes. So . . .
What do you want the answer to be?
If you can come up with an answer, have hope in that; if not, especially if you don’t want one answer that will leave lots of other people in despair, have hope that whatever will be will be acceptable to you and make you happy.
Ray, this is where I’m coming from on this particular one. I have felt, over the years, that the church “extracts” [a word my first mission president used] a lot from us. The idea that there is inspiration at the top, one true church, greater light and knowledge about what it takes in this life to be saved, as well as the obligations of having made covenants — those ideas are used a lot to obligate us to do things, to persist in drudgery, and in decades previously even stay married when it’s clearly not working.
As you know I have given up a lot (as have many others) including close relationships with my non-member family, a lot of money, and endured some difficult emotional times as a result of my interaction with the church.
To then find the church relies on the Deus Ex Machina ending to the saga bothers me. Sure we might not like the answers, but there are times when I wish they could deliver more in terms of knowledge about the outcomes we face in the eternities given their own truth claims. And particularly how leaders use those claims to get us to do things. It is so vague, even when compared to the vague description of heaven and hell we get in non-LDS churches.
So, when I hear leaders and members using the ole “God will work this out in the end” answer, it reinforces the part of me that questions if all this is man-made. I feel the church comes up short, and wants to “have its cake and eat it too” — enjoy the obedience and respect it deserves from being “true” and having truth and authority, while still reserving the right to leave us hanging on so many issues.
I understand and respect that, SD – really, I do. However, in this particular case, I personally don’t want one restricting answer – and I don’t want our leaders to give one restricting answer. I want the ability to hope for whatever it is for which I want to hope. That isn’t just about me and what I want; it’s also from a recognition that the deepest hopes and desires of lots of people conflict with each other in this particular case – and I want to respect and honor their ability to hold to those differing hopes and desires when it comes to this particular issue.
Other issues, perhaps not so much. Generally, though, I want the most expansive answer possible – which, in this case, is, “We will seal everyone to everyone, and God will work it out in the end.”
As with other things, it’s completely fine for us to see this differently – and, again, I really do understand and respect your view about it. I just don’t share it.
Old-Timer wrote:
As with other things, it’s completely fine for us to see this differently – and, again, I really do understand and respect your view about it. I just don’t share it.That’s OK. I see the need for flexibility given the diversity of situations. I guess I never got that far in my reasoning — the reasoning in my previous post is what prevails whenever I hear about these complex situations our eternal marriage doctrine spawns.
SilentDawning wrote:[A better alternative is to actually know. Given our claims to divine authority, one would think there would be clear answers to certain questions that, apparently (according to our theology) are so central to salvation — as well as a clearer idea of what it’ll be like in that better, eternal world for which we all hope.
I JS were alive, this question would be answered in a day. The question would come up, and a new section in the D&C would be ready the next day. The new section would begin with “Behold, thus saith the Lord unto you my servants; when a man is married to more than one woman in this life………”
We have a different church nowadays. It appears the Lord has stopped speaking to us as he did in Joseph Smith’s day. Another question, for another thread, is what would the church do if our current prophet got up in GC, and read a new section in the D&C in the voice of the Lord? Have we moved away from the charismatic church of our beginnings as a pragmatic way to keep moving forward?
Would you prefer that, Sheldon? Do you want polygamy as the standard in the next life? Do you want exact, specific, narrow answers for every question? Etc., etc., etc. We can pine for the days of yore, but we have to be willing to accept the “bad” aspects of the past as well as the “good” ones.
If I had to choose between living now and living back in Joseph’s time (or in conditions like existed then), I would choose now every. single. time. Maybe that makes me lazy or complacent, but I’d rather live now than be hounded from place to place, lose everything I own over and over and over again, perhaps be asked to allow my wife to marry someone else, watch my wife and/or children die along a lonely trail, wear out my body eeking out a living from a desert, feel pressure to have more than one wife, etc.
I’m good here and now – and I’m fine with leaders who are more caretakers than radical revolutionaries. I prefer more doctrinal expansiveness and ambiguity over strict conformism to one standard. I’d rather live my life as part of the world, striving for a balance I create on my own, than constantly be at war with the world – and that is what happens when prophets are more like Joseph Smith and less like Thomas Monson. (and I say that as someone who really does like Joseph in many ways, even while not liking everything that came with his unique personality)
Old-Timer wrote:Would you prefer that, Sheldon? Do you want polygamy as the standard in the next life? Do you want exact, specific, narrow answers for every question? Etc., etc., etc.)
I want a prophet that acts like a prophet, and actual has answers via his prophetic role on these “unknowns”, and not a CEO governed by the PR department.
Just not polygamy, but all these other things we don’t know. Can you imagine JS going on Larry King and saying “We don’t know”?
Old-Timer wrote:Would you prefer that, Sheldon? Do you want polygamy as the standard in the next life? Do you want exact, specific, narrow answers for every question? Etc., etc., etc.
I would like the answer God himself would give on this central issue of eternal life, marriage and sealing.
Sheldon, I will take that as a “Yes” to my actual questions. I’m not trying to be a jerk in phrasing it that way, but you didn’t answer the actual questions I asked, so it’s all I have left. Quote:Can you imagine JS going on Larry King and saying “We don’t know”?
Abso-freaking-lutely. No doubt whatsoever. He lied openly and obviously about polygamy, so I think he would dodge any question he didn’t want to answer.
Seriously, we complain about the Church white-washing our history, so the last thing we ought to do is the exact same thing in a way that suits our own perspectives and wishes.
Ray, I love having conversations with you. You always make me think, and sometimes rethink my positions. I think SD hit the nail on the head. Whether I think polygamy is right or wrong is not the issue, I want to know what GOD has to say about it, and all my life I’ve been taught that our prophet receives the will of God. So I’d like our prophet to know the mind and will of God, to be a prophet, seer, and revelator, and tell me what the deal with polygamy is. (As an aside to the above, and with all due respect to my GGGrandfather and his 6 wives, I would hope that a prophet one day will speak to God, and come to us as say “guess what, polygamy is all a mistake, and God only has one wife, and we’ll only have one wife!”).
Ray, keep up the good work, I always know my snarky comments will not slip by you!
To Ray and SD and others…..this is a great conversation BUTone thing keeps getting lost in the discussion. It is the single thing angering me and trying my faith……FREE AGENCY. If the Lord is going to sort it out in the end (and there will be billions of people to sort out “in the end”) …… WHY HAS MY FREE AGENCY BEEN SUBVERTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!I truly don’t care if not every Mormon back in the day practiced it….JS and BY taught that this is the way Heaven will be. My biggest issue is that if a church puts policy over people and subverts free agency and will….how can I trust that the organization has MY BEST INTERESTat heart and cares about me personally / individually or are we all just worker bees making honey for the hive??? UPDATE: I just wrote my letter of appeal to the First Presidency. My SP told me he would send this along with a letter from him for appeal. My wife asked me what if they deny your appeal? If so, I may still come to take the sacrament but won’t go to 2nd and 3rd hours of church. Why go to school if the school doesn’t honor free will? If they allow my sealing cancelation, that is one less frustration I have with the Church.
I will keep you all posted.
Thanks — I want to know the outcome. I see how we missed your point about free agency being made secondary to policy as the main issue here. The only thing I can think of in response is that to some extent, free agency is never totally free. It’s always subject to constraints when we buy into membership in an organization. I don’t see this necessarily as justification for this example of what you describe as forced polygamy, but I find that it’s something we all have to tolerate, and sometimes embrace if we want to be part of the organization.
I do agree, however, that our church does tend to put policy ahead of individuals. That has been my main beef for some time. I find this is hard for free thinkers and people with a lot of ideas (like myself, and many others here) who feel constricted by it. I hope the cancellation comes through as you hope.
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