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Had an interesting experience this morning as I was asleep. I guess I was dreaming, and found myself in a meeting with a local leader. I don’t know who he was, just that it was a local leader who was asking me about my commitment to the church. I woke up at the point I was supposed to share what I thought to this faceless leader. Therefore, I continued the dream into consciousness. As I tried to form an answer, It took me a while to even remember the hurtful experiences I’ve shared here over the last 4 or 5 years. I literally had to think “what was it that set me off years ago??”. It was like an “Oh yeah” kind of experience. I slowly remembered, the first experience, then the second, and then finally, the third one came back to me.
I think this represents a significant path toward forgiveness as forgetting is part of dealing with the angst.
But, the residual effects remain. I am still not engaged with the church and don’t feel a strong affinity for it anymore. My overall impression of the experience is negative now. So, the sentiments I have to toward the church are like the scorching left behind after the fire has gone out. The combustion is gone, but there is a residue — my general lack of interest in the LDS church any longer.
Would you consider this forgiveness? Or would forgiveness mean a full return to activity?
SilentDawning wrote:Had an interesting experience this morning as I was asleep. I guess I was dreaming, and found myself in a meeting with a local leader. I don’t know who he was, just that it was a local leader who was asking me about my commitment to the church. I woke up at the point I was supposed to share what I thought to this faceless leader. Therefore, I continued the dream into consciousness.
As I tried to form an answer, It took me a while to even remember the hurtful experiences I’ve shared here over the last 4 or 5 years. I literally had to think “what was it that set me off years ago??”. It was like an “Oh yeah” kind of experience. I slowly remembered, the first experience, then the second, and then finally, the third one came back to me.
I think this represents a significant path toward forgiveness as forgetting is part of dealing with the angst.
But, the residual effects remain. I am still not engaged with the church and don’t feel a strong affinity for it anymore. My overall impression of the experience is negative now. So, the sentiments I have to toward the church are like the scorching left behind after the fire has gone out. The combustion is gone, but there is a residue — my general lack of interest in the LDS church any longer.
Would you consider this forgiveness? Or would forgiveness mean a full return to activity?
I’m short no, not at all. Long Answer, forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting,
I’m at odds with my family whom I love very much. I forgive them and would love for things to be different then they can be.
However that is not within my control. I acknowledge and remember there is a reason I shouldn’t forget when situations pop up in the present that remind me why I need to remember so I leave myself a quick way out while visiting my family when the situation presents itself harmful again.
I need to remember least I find myself trapped with no escape route again(which has happened).
I remember why I need to remember but I forgive and don’t hold it against them. But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t protect myself. I can’t do that if I don’t remember and subject myself to the repeated treatment no matter how much I love them.
Forgiveness and forgetfulness are separate issues. It doesn’t mean going back to full activity anymore then it means going back to bring full time with my family. It would be unhealthy unless the situation changes. Something I have no control over.
I agree with F_C. Forgiving does not mean leaving oneself open to further betrayals and forgiving does not automatically undo some of the natural consequences of the first betrayal.
I believe that structures/boundaries are part of relationships. Sometimes a betrayal is a sign that there needs to be more structure/boundary in that particular area instead of blind trust. Trust but verify.
Some things can be forgotten; some things should be remembered. Forgiving can include either result. Knowing you from long interaction, I would say your situation is more forgiveness than just forgetting.
Just had another thought after critiquing my own. The way you have it worded seems to did jest to me that the question is does person forgive before the wound has healed.
In some situations yes, regardless of the situation if it has passed long enough holding onto anger or hate is destructive to oneself weather or bit the person has done anything to correct the mistake or apologize(thus not forgetting it).
Forgiveness is not about earning it, it’s about healing ones own soul by letting go of things that are destructive to it.
In a way without forgiveness a person becomes decedent on others for there own feelings. There feelings become dictated by the actions of another(weather or not they love, accept or apologize to the individual).
It’s incredibly destructive to your own spirit to become co-dependent to legitimize ones own-self of worth or feelings.
It’s empowering to ones own soul to stand and metaphorically(or sometimes literally) and say look at me, I deserve basic respect and acknowledgment and what I do and who I am matters independent of what others think or treat me feel.
As humans we strive to not be dependent on others to validate our feelings, it’s a hit and miss roller coaster.
Forgiveness isn’t about the other, it’s about healing oneself so you can move own.
In short it is about unshackling your chains, regardless of who put them there. Not waiting for the person or party to unshackled them for us(humans).
Forgiveness is for the offended more than it is for the offender. It’s accompanied by a gentle understanding of the offense and it’s motives. It brings a sense of peace that dissolves the resentment. Whether you stay or go, daydream or actively participate, forgiving will allow you to be at peace, and when you are at peace you know, you have forgiven.
How do you forgive someone when they will not acknowledge they even need to be forgiven? How do you go about your business as if everything is now OK? This is not a blind shot across the bow, I really do need to know how to forgive something that has been eating at me for a long time but it’s very difficult to associate when there is no acknowledgement of the depth of injury caused. In fact they would say that it is me who needs to accept the sacrifice made. Kipper wrote:How do you forgive someone when they will not acknowledge they even need to be forgiven? How do you go about your business as if everything is now OK? This is not a blind shot across the bow, I really do need to know how to forgive something that has been eating at me for a long time but it’s very difficult to associate when there is no acknowledgement of the depth of injury caused. In fact they would say that it is me who needs to accept the sacrifice made.
I was trying to address that to SD since(from what he has shared) it probably isn’t an option for him to talk or address it as well.
My own life is full of this, I had to learn to move on without acknowledgment from many parties.
Some things were a pretty sever hit and run type thing in which I never saw them again. Others are situation where pride prevents acknowledgment.
It’s bit about an apology, it’s about letting go. It shacked you, don’t expect others to unshackle it by apology I or making amends. Decide to love, in as much as you love there isn’t room for hate, in as much as you hate there isn’t ruin for love.
It doesn’t mean the pain stops nessisaraly, in my case I have to live with physical and emotional scares most likely the rest if my life. But it means not holding it to them. Stop attaching the pain to them and be at peace with it to them.
It’s hard and takes time depending in the context.
But you can never really rely on apologies or acknowledgment, it will engage your heart eventually.
Empathy, it sound weird but it can be trained by practicing and seeing and helping others deal with theirs, making a connection to them helps release your own angst.
Just my 2 cents
Forgotten_Charity wrote:Kipper wrote:How do you forgive someone when they will not acknowledge they even need to be forgiven? How do you go about your business as if everything is now OK? This is not a blind shot across the bow, I really do need to know how to forgive something that has been eating at me for a long time but it’s very difficult to associate when there is no acknowledgement of the depth of injury caused. In fact they would say that it is me who needs to accept the sacrifice made.
It’s hard and takes time depending in the context.
But you can never really rely on apologies or acknowledgment, it will engage your heart eventually.
Empathy, it sound weird but it can be trained by practicing and seeing and helping others deal with theirs, making a connection to them helps release your own angst.
Just my 2 cents
That’s worth more than 2 cents.
kipper, everything in this post is my own personal opinion:
I don’t believe that forgiveness is simply being a punching bag for everyone else. If a neighbor always sends his dog over to do its business in your yard, you don’t have to just ‘forgive’ that person. To me, forgiving implies not holding past failures over someone who is trying to get beyond them. If your neighbor realizes what is happening and then makes an attempt to change his dogs habits, that’s were forgiveness comes in.
On Own Now wrote:kipper,
everything in this post is my own personal opinion:
I don’t believe that forgiveness is simply being a punching bag for everyone else. If a neighbor always sends his dog over to do its business in your yard, you don’t have to just ‘forgive’ that person. To me, forgiving implies not holding past failures over someone who is trying to get beyond them. If your neighbor realizes what is happening and then makes an attempt to change his dogs habits, that’s were forgiveness comes in.
I guess that’s kinda how I feel but that is certainly not what is taught in our church. I don’t mean to sound contradictory, like I said that’s how I feel but unconditional forgiveness is what I have been hearing repeatedly. And also, “what have you got to lose?”
Kipper wrote:On Own Now wrote:kipper,
everything in this post is my own personal opinion:
I don’t believe that forgiveness is simply being a punching bag for everyone else. If a neighbor always sends his dog over to do its business in your yard, you don’t have to just ‘forgive’ that person. To me, forgiving implies not holding past failures over someone who is trying to get beyond them. If your neighbor realizes what is happening and then makes an attempt to change his dogs habits, that’s were forgiveness comes in.
I guess that’s kinda how I feel but that is certainly not what is taught in our church. I don’t mean to sound contradictory, like I said that’s how I feel but unconditional forgiveness is what I have been hearing repeatedly. And also, “what have you got to lose?”
It’s difficult to ascertain all the ways in which a person can subjected to and hurt caused.
Regardless in no way do I mean to suggest that a person be a punching bag.
On my own is right in that you don’t repeatedly subject yourself to harm through forgiveness.
Likewise being assertive in a situation where a person can be or is repeatedly harmed is very very important. Both for the persons protection and for the offender to learn it’s not ok, that you will not put up with it.
You don’t have control over another’s actions but you have control over weather or not they violet your personal space(physical, emotionally, materially).
I’ve heard really really bad examples of forgiveness taught in church you are right.
One such example was when the institute teacher spoke to the young women and asked them if they could forgive someone who would take them and what that would intel. Apparently it I yelled being able to sit down with them at a dinner table as real forgiveness. Really, really bad example.
The best way to put this is to take a look at church council and discipline.
In what ways does forgiveness come about in church instruction for the church(not god forgiveness)?
I’m what ways do they take precautions and sanctions on behalf of the church(not god)?
I’m not suggesting to go that route nessiserly, but rather you can see by the example of the church instructions that those examples at church used sometimes as you outlined do not match up with official church procedure.
The church has a computer system with previous past flagged, as a system of protection against it and also those in the ward. Repeated offenders are marked to show caution and not put trust in various leadership positions or given assignments which would put others in jeopardy.
So you can see those giving those examples don’t follow the churches own example and tone it has set in doing so on forgiveness(I don’t mean church members or leaders but official instructions and procedures).
You can bring that up in a polite way as to why it doesn’t work that way.
Confusing forgiveness with reconciliation is a very common mistake and one that’s easy to get confused. Here is a good article on the 2 because I haven’t heard anything this good at church on the subject so night as well post it here to help gain a perspective and understanding as to how and what a good apology looks like and accepting one. Why it is important to forgive even if the offender won’t acknowledge or apologize. And why forgiveness is important even when it may be impossible to reconcile with the person or party. It’s reconciliation that is the real hard part, it’s long difficult and in some cases just plus impossible, forgiveness fortunately isn’t, it’s entirely up to you and only requires you. Quote:Ever said or heard this?
“I can’t forgive as long as he’s in my life.”
“She won’t apologize so how can I forgive her?”
“Forgive? I’ll never forget what he did!”
Three-and-a-half years ago I shared my forgiveness model which is just one of many, many ideas about letting go and moving on. Since then, several reporters have reached out to learn more about forgiveness (here and here for example). They tend to ask one common question: “How can you forgive if you’re not ready to let the offender back into your life?”
It’s evident that many people misunderstand forgiveness. They assume that forgiveness requires making up with the person who hurt you — sitting down with the perpetrator, talking it through, and hugging it out. They believe forgiveness is the same as reconciliation. Truth is, they’re not the same. They’re related, but not the same.
Let’s say a good friend does something horrible. She kicks your dog or kisses your date or destroys your reputation. Then she moves out of the country or ceases all contact. Or dies. What happens now?
Can you forgive? Can you reconcile?
My response: You can still forgive. Reconciliation is a separate issue.
My former professor, the late Lewis B. Smedes wrote: “To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover the prisoner was you.” Smedes wrote the book Forgive and Forget in 1984 which has been credited as the catalyst for modern forgiveness research. Holding a grudge imprisons you. Forgiveness sets you free. In fact, the health benefits of forgiveness are so clear, holding a grudge seems self-destructive by contrast.
In my model, forgiveness is an internal process where you work through the hurt, gain an understanding of what happened, rebuild a sense of safety, and let go of the grudge (more on how to forgive here). The offending party is not necessarily a part of this process.
On the other hand, reconciliation is an interpersonal process where you dialogue with the offender about what happened, exchange stories, express the hurt, listen for the remorse, and begin to reestablish trust. It’s a much more complicated, involved process that includes, but moves beyond forgiveness. Forgiveness is solo, reconciliation is a joint venture.
Said Smedes: “It takes one person to forgive, it takes two people to be reunited.”
You can forgive someone who is dead. Or someone you never see anymore. Or someone who has no intention of apologizing. So apologies aren’t necessary, but when available, they do help.
A few months ago I had the privilege of interviewing prominent forgiveness researcher Frederic Luskin for the Psychotherapy Networker. He agrees that forgiveness doesn’t require participation from the offender, but says repentance can make forgiveness easier:
Certainly, if somebody is really apologetic and takes responsibility—“My bad. I really hurt you. No excuses.” Then forgiveness is easier. It’s not just bad because you got hurt, but I did something wrong. When someone says, “I’m sorry because you’re hurt,” well, that can make the person who’s been injured feel at fault because they were hurt. That’s an offensive kind of apology. It’s different when you say: “Boy, I did wrong, independently of whether or not you got hurt. I also see how that wrong has impacted you, and I’m sorry for that.” So there are two steps—“I did wrong, and that wrong hurt you.” Then the next step is, “Since it’s my responsibility, what can I do to make it better for you?” That’s a true apology, and that makes a real difference.
Another common question involves the relationship between forgiving and forgetting. Does forgiveness mean we expunge the infraction from our memory? Is that even possible?
Smedes said: “Forgiving does not erase the bitter past. A healed memory is not a deleted memory. Instead, forgiving what we cannot forget creates a new way to remember. We change the memory of our past into a hope for our future.”
Luskin concurs: “It’s actually remembering differently. While lack of forgiveness is remembering something with an edge or a grudge or a sense of injustice, forgiveness means remembering it more benignly, with compassion. It involves some purpose of moving ahead, rather than just being stuck in the past.”
You can forgive your dog-kicking friend. In fact, your mental and physical health depends on it. But making up with her is a different story, one that requires forgiveness as well as her desire to listen, understand, and apologize. To you and your dog.
The point is, the process of forgiveness and reconciliation can be a long, grueling process. Making up may not be possible due to obstacles including participation by the offender. But forgiveness involves only you. Isn’t your emotional and physical health worth it?
http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-therapy/201303/forgiveness-vs-reconciliation ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-therapy/201303/forgiveness-vs-reconciliation F_C you have so much insight and ability to express what you know. I would say you have maximized your potential in an area that you had the capacity for. This makes it very difficult for me to accept that “…we are not a church of volunteers but of assignments…” I’m sure you have heard that, it’s been repeated so many times. The problem I see with that is I can be assigned to something I’m not good at, not necessarily a bad thing unless it is at the expense of something I am good at but still need time to develop. I could possibly never reach that potential. Sorry if I got off topic. That is an issue I need to reconcile specifically. Old-Timer wrote:Some things can be forgotten; some things should be remembered. Forgiving can include either result.
Knowing you from long interaction, I would say your situation is more forgiveness than just forgetting.
Thanks Ray. I credit my dedication to work in the community as a key factor in forgetting. I have so many other things engaging me in service to others that I haven’t had time to deepen the ruts of negative experience in the church. I also think StayLDS helped me through the fatigue method. You guys put up with me repeating my negative stories and hurt, and eventually, people stopped responding to those comments as they were old chestnuts. It helped me feel tired of my story enough to move on.
One thing I have learned in my commuity service is that all organizations suffer from egocentricity just as the church does. The one I work for is definitely not exempt. But it doesn’t seem to bother me in other organizations (like it does in the church) because other organizations aren’t claiming to be perfect or to have a corner on salvation. So my expectations are lower than in the church.
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