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DarkJedi wrote:
As a side note, I think the coming home Saturday morning has two main causes: to many members (especially men) Saturday is more sacred than Sunday, and the guys called are doing it because they were called and not because they necessarily love Scouting. In troops outside the church the guy leading is there totally because he wants to be, which just happens to be true of our troop’s SM.
I totally get this assessment.
Saturday more sacred than Sunday. Hahahahaha. I totally get that one too. It’s literally the only day of the week where I don’t feel like I’m at work. A sabbath if you will.
I have been involved in a non-LDS troop and led an LDS troop and they are usually two different beasts – campouts being one of those differences. DJ is right on the get home early on Saturday. Sunday you can go to church and then do nothing. But Saturday! That is when you have to get stuff done.
I have been there at times leaving early on Saturday. Sometimes you are shooting for “just get a night of camping because you have to have 20 nights to get the Eagle required Camping Merit Badge.” But here is how it goes. Sunday is Sunday. Monday night is FHE. Tuesday night is getting everything ready for the Wednesday night YM/scout meeting so the boys can “plan” their meals. Wednesday night is the scout meeting then after the scout meeting making sure the parents know the dropoff time/what specific items are needed for the campout. Thursday night is packing all the troop and my personal stuff, and double checking that you have non-expired health forms and other paperwork ready. Friday to leave work early to get going. So on Saturday the boys start leaving to head out to other sports. So by the time noon comes around, the boys are tired as they didn’t sleep much the night before and you have hardly talked with your wife the entire week. And you know that you still need to unpack (1+ hours), record any progress from the campouts before you forget, mow the lawn. So after you get that done (and you are dead tire because you didn’t sleep that good the night before) it is time to go have a date with your wife and you struggle to stay awake to talk with her. And that is once a month that this is supposed to happen. I have not even gone into the paperwork (camping reservations, tour permits, etc.) nor adults dropping out at the last minute, or having just enough seats in the cars and someone brings a friend to go camping. Throw a job that requires lots of time (not to mention lots of priesthood leadership meetings since you are in the YM presidency) and there isn’t enough time in the day. I heard someone say that the bishop is the busiest man in the ward and I agree, but depending on the ward composition the next in line is either the RS Pres (wards with mainly older members) or the scoutmaster (wards with lots of youth).
I feel there are 3 main differences/issues.
1. Splitting of the quorums along with it being non-optional for all YM.In the typical non-LDS troop there are 15, 16, and 17 year olds that WANT to be scout leaders. The adults generally can be more shadow leaders to help these older boys be the leaders. And I tell you the response that an 11 or 12 year old to a “cool” (respected) 16 year old is DRAMATICALLY different than when some old man tells him. And the by-product is less effort by the adult leaders and some young men that really have learned some great leadership lessons – more than most get as being quorum presidents. The priests typically won’t even come on a campout with deacons. There is a lot of talk about your quorum being your set of best friends. But the entire time you are in YM your quorum is changing every month or two with younger boys coming in and others leaving (at least in a ward with lots of youth). My kids have their friends and it makes no difference if they have moved up to another quorum or not. 2. Finances– most LDS troops are so underfunded that it affects the experience for the boys and puts a financial burden on the leader (I can’t tell you how many tank fulls of gas in my suburban towing a trailer I have not been reimbursed on). IMHO there are WAY too many fundraising restrictions. I live in the south where there is generally (even now) some real respect for scouting and fundraising can be rather easy, but the LDS are barred from most forms. I have heard both that this was from some Utah troops going crazy on fundraising to build huge coffers and I have also heard it is to limit how much time the boys can actually spend on campouts so the leaders are not too busy. 3. Leader motivation, training, and aptitude.The short campouts are one symptoms. The scouting organization’s efforts for adults is mainly a training organization. Way too many LDS troops have someone that won’t say no to a calling, but don’t feel they need to be trained by the BSA. No wonder the LDS troops have the highest % of injuries and deaths out of all scouting groups. After giving this a proofread, I probably just ensured that anybody that reads this will never take on the role as scoutmaster. I did it for 10+ years and there was some great rewards for doing it. So it isn’t all bad, but I wish the church would let it run a bit better and I think the boys would get more out of it and it would be less of a burden on the leaders.
nibbler wrote:Saturday more sacred than Sunday. Hahahahaha. I totally get that one too. It’s literally the only day of the week where I don’t feel like I’m at work. A sabbath if you will.
Ever try to schedule a meeting that could be done on Sunday on Saturday? I get why it is the way it is, but in some ways to some people Saturday is more sacred than Sunday precisely for the reason you state – and church tradition and policy have led to that. There was a time when we were encouraged not to have extra meetings on Sunday, now ward council and other such meetings on Sunday are the norm.
LookingHard, your #1 above is another biggie for me. I wasone of those younger scouts that had heroes among the 16-18 year olds. That’s a very important aspect of scouting that I feel is missing. I’ve seen the division of the boys make for meetings where the leaders outnumbered the boys. Come to scouts, hang out with old people. 
Also, the church’s flavor of scouts has most people getting eagle by 14 so the boys are mostly “done” with scouting by the time they become a teacher. So I might take Ray’s:
Quote:I don’t contribute to Scouting. I hated it when I was a kid.
A step further and get out my soapbox.
Quote:I was a scout, I knew scouting, scouting was a friend of mine. You’re no Jack Kennedy.
Good points, LH. I, too, have been SM and YMP. And I have served in bishoprics. Some few people realize this, but the YMP is the busiest (and most time consuming) calling in the ward, not the bishop. The YMP is in every meeting the bishop is in except bishopric – but there are plenty of other meetings and activities to make up for that. I never hesitate to point that out when people say the bishop is the busiest guy in the ward, interrupting if I have to. When I was YMP both bishops (we had a change during my tenure) had been YMP and knew that, so it was good. I might have mentioned this elsewhere. My ward sent out addressed stamped envelopes with partially filled out forms and propaganda flyers, mostly church related rather than Scouting related. Since they spent that much time and money I removed as much identifying information I could on the forms and sent in a token dollar bill.
In response to questions and comments. This is from The Scouting Handbook. Quote:8.10
Camping and Sabbath Day Observance
Keeping the Sabbath day holy is a commandment of the Lord and the practice of the Church. The Church does not approve of hiking and camping trips on Sunday. Scout groups should not travel to or from camps on Sunday. Plans for outings should ensure that Aaronic Priesthood brethren and other members can attend to their regular Church assignments.
As an exception, priesthood leaders may approve attendance at some BSA-sponsored national and regional jamborees that occur over the Sabbath. Attendance at such events may only occur with prior priesthood approval and with supervision by authorized priesthood leaders. Members attending such events are not to participate in activities that are inappropriate for the Sabbath. Scout uniforms may be worn during sacrament services at these events.
Sacrament meetings are not to be held—and the sacrament is not to be administered—outside the boundaries of the ward or stake where the priesthood leaders preside. Any exceptions must be approved by a member of the Presidency of the Seventy.
Scouting events (except approved long-term camps) are not held on Monday evening, the night designated for family home evening.
https://www.lds.org/manual/scouting-handbook-united-states/8-0-church-policies?lang=eng Thoreau wrote:In response to questions and comments. This is from The Scouting Handbook.
Quote:8.10
Camping and Sabbath Day Observance
Keeping the Sabbath day holy is a commandment of the Lord and the practice of the Church. The Church does not approve of hiking and camping trips on Sunday. Scout groups should not travel to or from camps on Sunday. Plans for outings should ensure that Aaronic Priesthood brethren and other members can attend to their regular Church assignments.
As an exception, priesthood leaders may approve attendance at some BSA-sponsored national and regional jamborees that occur over the Sabbath. Attendance at such events may only occur with prior priesthood approval and with supervision by authorized priesthood leaders. Members attending such events are not to participate in activities that are inappropriate for the Sabbath. Scout uniforms may be worn during sacrament services at these events.
Sacrament meetings are not to be held—and the sacrament is not to be administered—outside the boundaries of the ward or stake where the priesthood leaders preside. Any exceptions must be approved by a member of the Presidency of the Seventy.
Scouting events (except approved long-term camps) are not held on Monday evening, the night designated for family home evening.
https://www.lds.org/manual/scouting-handbook-united-states/8-0-church-policies?lang=eng I know what the handbook says, and so do my bishop and SP. Our troop still goes to camp on Sunday with their approval. e do not hold ordinary campouts on Sundays, however.
As a tom-boy with a brother two years older and another brother two years younger than me, I was acutely aware of the differences between the YM and YW programs. My brothers went water skiing. I learned to crochet. My brothers went camping, I learned to embroider. Part of that was due to YW leaders, part due to the program mandates, and part due to budgetary constraints. As a mother of daughters, I have seen the same disparity that I saw in my own youth. The YM went to the mountains of New Mexico for a week of back packing at a scout camp. The girls camped in a plowed field in August in Oklahoma. The YM traveled. The YW had to stay within Stake boundaries.
Culturally, I’m amazed that this disparity is acceptable .. That as a people .. We consider it normal.
I agree with you about the disparity and I do believe it unfair to our YW. There is no church rule that says you can’t involve your daughters in outside organizations that provide other opportunities. I’m not saying this in defense if church policy and practice, nor do I think you should need to – but it is an option. Quote:There is no church rule that says you can’t involve your daughters in outside organizations that provide other opportunities. I’m not saying this in defense if church policy and practice, nor do I think you should need to – but it is an option.
DarkJedi:
My older daughter looks like a cheer leader. She used to shoot competitively, had her own rappelling harness, and made a great pie. She has an engineering degree, but is a SAHM right now. (Just made me a grandma for the first time last month.) I call her my nerd with good packaging. Her mortality and ethics are because of LDS influences. But so much of what she is was in direct conflict with YW leaders. She was the Laurel president who refused to toe the line and be gently guided by her leaders. She wanted to be involved in the decision-making process — like the manual states. Talk about WWIII. lol. All parties survived and are still on speaking terms.
I made too much of an emphasis of supporting church programs when raising her. I will not make that mistake again. My younger daughter is much more of a math/physics geek. Her social skills are not as finely honed. She attends YW .. But we make other programs outside the church equally important. She is different enough that if we focused only on YW, it would not be healthy for her.
Unfortunately, AP, I only got one shot at a daughter. She is a wonderful young soon to be professional woman. Had I to do it over again, there are certainly things I would do differently, including less emphasis on some aspects of the church program. She did earn her YW award, BTW, and it even bothers me that she worked so hard on it but got way less recognition than my Eagle Scout sons (who each chose toned down ceremonies partly in deference to her). DarkJedi, There are a number of ways I can take your brusque response to my post. I will assume that I caught you at a bad time or that you misunderstood my post. I was not calling anyone out, chastising, or calling to repentance. I thought someone had asked what the policy is so I referenced it. That does not mean I agree with it.
Thoreau wrote:DarkJedi,
There are a number of ways I can take your brusque response to my post. I will assume that I caught you at a bad time or that you misunderstood my post. I was not calling anyone out, chastising, or calling to repentance. I thought someone had asked what the policy is so I referenced it. That does not mean I agree with it.
My apologies if my response seemed brusque, that was not the intent. The inherent fault of communicating as we do here is that we lack the ability to read things like body language and tone of voice making it easy to interpret the written word in a way different than what is intended.
I had also intended to expand the point about the blessings of the stake president, in particular. This actually began under the previous SP and is continued under the current SP. There certainly are those who take the handbooks as nearly as authoritative as scripture and there are those who tend to disregard them to a great extent. I once had a bishop, who became SP, who regularly taught that anything in the handbooks was just a guideline and that what we really needed to do was follow the Spirit, even if it contradicted the handbook. This same guy as YMP had called the YM office in Salt Lake a couple times with Scouting questions and was given the answer to do what he thought was right with the approval of his bishop and (he says) he was told outright that the Scouting Handbook was a guide and intended for Scouting in Utah and they realized some of it was not really applicable in other areas of the church.
So, the point was intended to be, yes, the handbook (in this case the GHI) explicitly forbids going to camps on Sunday, yet our own local leaders sanction the idea (even though other units in our stake don’t do it). They have drawn the line on Sunday campouts, this only applies to Scout Camp. I don’t know that I sustain this as revelation to our SP, but I do believe he has the final word in how we do things here and if the SP says it’s OK, it’s OK with me (in this case). Even the most stalwart of members haven’t refused to send their sons on Sunday.
No problem.
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