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nibbler wrote:LookingHard wrote:
Guilty. I’m also a man
(I just checked again to make sure)
Time to go re-read you “little factories” pamphlet?nibbler wrote:You haven’t received a spiritual confirmation because you don’t really want to know.
[tab]becomes[/tab]
If I haven’t received a spiritual confirmation it would be because I didn’t really want to know.Which then eventually becomes “If I don’t really want to know, then I can’t really benefit from all this, and I might as well be at a church that welcomes me in spite of my lack of conviction in certain matters of relatively minor practical doctrine.”
Just like in finances, relationships and other areas of life, people who have always easily gotten what they wanted simply can’t comprehend that it doesn’t work that way for everyone else, and attach all sorts of (often poorly selected) reasons to it. Reminds me of the stake Single Adults rep we had right after my divorce, who had been married since shortly after he returned from his mission in the early 1970s; there were finally enough complaints about him after he openly told everyone in a fireside that we just needed to stop fooling around and get married, as if most of us weren’t trying with everything we had to find someone worthy and willing. Because it happened so easily for him, we must be actively trying to avoid it.
Quote:So he did it, and it worked out great, and so there’s proof – the Lord wanted him to do that thing. Of course there is all kinds of logical problems with that, but besides that, he went on to ask me if I thought I could be as good of a dad as him without the spirit guiding me everyday like it does with him. I sat in stunned silence, and he said next “You can’t. I’m sorry, but you can’t be as good of a dad as me if you don’t have the spirit.”
Bless his heart.
One of the hardest parts of this faith transition gift is dealing with people who will never experience anything like it. It sucks. No matter how many times you want them to hear, they really can’t. Inside them, they think they have been an immense help. He may be just a jerk. I have had a few Bishops, and SP’s who were jerks – and that was when I was fully invested and TBM. And I am not talking slightly rude – I am talking mega jerks to where people moved to get out of the ward/stake.
FWIW – Even as a TBM who had profound spiritual experiences I assumed God expected me to use my brain. To read, to think, to attempt on my own. Keep venting here. We are happy to listen.
DoubtingTom wrote:
When I was with my SP, he related a personal story about how he was making a decision about how to deal with one of his children, and he had a distinct impression (“almost like a voice in my head”) to do something different than he originally wanted to. So he did it, and it worked out great, and so there’s proof – the Lord wanted him to do that thing. Of course there is all kinds of logical problems with that, but besides that, he went on to ask me if I thought I could be as good of a dad as him without the spirit guiding me everyday like it does with him. I sat in stunned silence, and he said next “You can’t. I’m sorry, but you can’t be as good of a dad as me if you don’t have the spirit.”
:wtf: Inside-outside, belief-unbelief, righteousness-wickedness, happiness-misery, white-black, right-wrong, me-you. It’s all very logical if you buy into what’s sometimes taught about the boundaries.
That being said, I know a lot of members who would think he was out of line, even if they agreed with his premises.
mom3 wrote:Quote:“You can’t. I’m sorry, but you can’t be as good of a dad as me if you don’t have the spirit.”
Bless his heart.
One of the hardest parts of this faith transition gift is dealing with people who will never experience anything like it.
Agree…mom3…bless their hearts…that is how they see it and they are either trying to help you by sharing advice…or they are trying to look good and sound important with all the answers and with tons of spiritual validations from God that they are chosen. Either way…it is about them.The things I was told as I went through my divorce…sheesh…people were so certain that I had to do things a certain way or that they have worked through marriage problems themselves so they wanted me to have hope I could one day grow up to be as strong as them.
🙄 No….similar to how Mom3 put it…those who haven’t gone through certain experiences (spouse with bipolar…or faith crisis)…they simply don’t know the depths of how far some things go and that if there were simple answers, it would have been discovered already.I learned to stop seeking answers or validation from others. The value in talking to leaders is they can share their view…in hopes I can consider that and check my thinking and my emotions to make sure I’m not missing something. After considering their input…I move on best I can…but their input is like asking someone on the streetcorner for directions…they may not express it well, they may be confused what you’re asking, or they may not know exactly where you’re asking you want to go. It just won’t always be good directions. Better to stick to google on your own and not bother to ask others. Of course, I don’t mind driving around some until I find it even if that means 2 or 3 u-turns…of course…I’m a guy…I don’t ask for directions, right??
:silent: DT wrote:That was a bit of an aside, but my point is that some leaders truly feel that God intervenes in their daily lives and daily decisions, while I have never felt that way – that all these little decisions have a right/wrong answer. I do feel that we can self meditate and come to personal inspirations about what is best for us or or kid’s lives, but for me, that’s not necessarily communication from God but merely good introspection and insight into our own and other’s lives.
I think that is an important thing about personal journeys…realizing your experience is not “wrong” because it is different than how others have had experiences. I’m not sure we can want to have things the way others do. God works with each of us as he knows best we will benefit from it. For some, personal inspirations aren’t there. We’ve even heard many high up leaders express that from time to time (anyone know the good quotes on that?).Good introspection…if it gets us where we need to go…is as good as revelation to me. I like orthopraxy and an individual god. Sometimes, it is such an individual god…I don’t know if God is even listening…and that is OK.
DoubtingTom wrote:
As I posted earlier, I met with my SP today, and I will just say the experience was frustrating. As I was discussing some of my concerns with him, he kept cutting me off and asking me what my motivation was for asking these things. There was the clear implication that I was doing something wrong in asking these questions. He was previously much more understanding than he was today. He also told me, among other things, that I hadn’t received a spiritual confirmation because I didn’t really want to know, that me asking these things was the adversary trying to destroy my family, and that I don’t understand the difference between spiritual communication and emotional experiences (can someone explain that one for me?)
I remember a member of the SP making a statement about the church being perfect in priesthood meeting. I asked him after the class what he meant by that. He said that it had a perfect organization. I did not see how that can be the case since the church no longer has the office of presiding patriarch. Was that office part of the “perfect” organization or wasn’t it? Perhaps he meant perfect in the sense of divine origin and direction – yet by that definition humans are perfect as well. De we not believe that we came from God and as still under his direction and governance?
I thought it would be simple to demonstrate to this man that his use of the word “perfect” could not really mean perfect by the definition in the dictionary. Instead, he ended up telling me that he doesn’t know about all that stuff. That he is a simple farmer with a simple faith.
He kept asking me concerned questions about my testimony.
It was a frustrating place to be. How hard would it have been for this good man to simply say, “You are right. Perfect is not the right word to use. Thanks for pointing that out.” ?
If someone insists that the church is perfect then by definition there can be nothing wrong with the church.
When someone is in a “logical” frame of mind, appeals to emotion become much less effective. When someone is in an “emotional” frame of mind, appeals to logic become much less effective.
Quote:
I remember a member of the SP making a statement about the church being perfect in priesthood meeting. I asked him after the class what he meant by that. He said that it had a perfect organization. I did not see how that can be the case since the church no longer has the office of presiding patriarch. Was that office part of the “perfect” organization or wasn’t it? Perhaps he meant perfect in the sense of divine origin and direction – yet by that definition humans are perfect as well. De we not believe that we came from God and as still under his direction and governance?I thought it would be simple to demonstrate to this man that his use of the word “perfect” could not really mean perfect by the definition in the dictionary. Instead, he ended up telling me that he doesn’t know about all that stuff. That he is a simple farmer with a simple faith.
He kept asking me concerned questions about my testimony.
Here is a phrase I’ve heard before “SD, I’m worried about you”. That’s their way of saying they don’t approve of what you are saying. I don’t think they are genuinely worried about you, they simply don’t have answers, or think you are straying into questions that imply lack of testimony.
And guess what, I guess he was right in a way….my testimony is not nearly as strong as it was when I was a new member or even 10 years into the experience of being a Mormon.
The Church is perfect line though is ludicrous to me. I don’t know who started it, but it’s the biggest license to kill I’ve seen. It means leaders can make mistakes, and do tons of damage to their membership yet have no accountability. The same way government likes to have no accountability.
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