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Just thought I’d share the mind and motivations of a SP who visited our home a few months back. His exec secretary called hoping we would accept a visit from the Stake President. We did, cleared up his massive misconception that we were inactive, indicated we understood attending a different ward meant no calling, and explained it away due to work-related concerns. We gave no information about disaffection or anything that was bothering us. After he left, I figured it was because a GA was coming to town for an upcoming Stake conference — there is always a flurry of activity like this before they come down. Anyway, I spoke to one of his right-hand men recently, and found out I was right. An apostle was visiting the area for a conference, and asked the SP to set up appointments with less active people with potential in search for “the one”. “The one” is the family that will reactivate after the SP visits a few — the “one” would receive a visit from the Apostle and hopefully would go into activity again.
Anyway, I thought I would share this. One one hand, it is admirable that the Apostle wants to set the example in reaching out to people. On the other hand, I’m of the mind we should not be out for short-term wins, but long term caring and affirmation of people –regardless of their perceived or actual activity level. We were right in our supposition that there must’ve been something related to the Stake Conference on the table to encourage the SP to make his visit.
FYI.
“These are not the droids you’re looking for.” 
Interesting SD. Out here in the hinter lands we get far fewer GA visits altogether, much less apostles. I have lived in this stake ( a couple different wards) for nearly 30 years and we have had one apostle. We have managed some presidency and first quorum of the seventy, but most often we get area authorities now. When the stake was reorganized this spring we did have a first quorum seventy with the area authority.
That said, I must point out that your situation is not always the case. Our SP, called this spring, is very focused on “the one” and is preparing for his first conference on his own. He told us we’re not getting anyone until next fall. I have been on visits with him, he is sincere and is not preparing for a visit by a higher authority. I don’t doubt what you say is true and correct, I’m just saying there are some (at least one) sincere leaders out there.
I am torn. On the one hand, it would be really nice to have an Apostle visit our home.
OTOH, DW and I would probably feel incredibly self concsious about everything. I might also feel a little manipulated.
But back to the first hand – the intentions might be pure and for some having an Apostle commit them to activity might be just the spiritual experience that they need to re-energize them.
WE don’t want to discourage any leader who acts out of caring. I do think the SP and Apostle (particularly the Apostle) were looking for a short-term win though. Quote:“Short-term win”?
Do you really think either person doesn’t care about people long-term?
Of course, they are looking for people who might be helped with a one-time visit from an apostle. I know two people who were visited by an apostle who was in the area, through a process exactly like what you describe. They both appreciated it – and one visit led to a baptism of an amazing man who still is active over 10 years later. I know one person where the request was not appreciated and was declined.
There is a HUGE difference between wanting to help someone who might be helped by a visit and “looking for a short-term win”.
My sister and BIL had a visit like that with the BP and SP. They were there for over an hour. I don’t know if an Apostle was involved. It would be very interesting to visit one on one with an Apostle but I wonder if the SP was aware that the person being visited was going to ask the leader to explain some of the troubling issues if the SP would avoid that person. It seems to me if there are issues with the truth claims as opposed simple lack of faith, the church isn’t willing to invest much time and energy because there really aren’t very satisfying answers. I recently had one of these visits. From my involvement here I have come to understand that these visits are fairly SOP in the church. I received a call from executive secretary asking for us to receive a visit in our home in a few days. I asked how long the visit might last and I was told maybe 20 minutes. I asked who was coming to visit and I was told that it would be someone from the ward and a member of stake leadership (“like the stake RS president” was the specific example provided). I was out of town at the moment but I promised to discuss it with my wife and call back – I did and we accepted the visit. Turns out that it was the new bishop (6 months) and the SP that came to our house. They visited with us for almost an hour talking about my job, our kids, how long we have lived there, our missionary service, our callings, etc. Then the SP asked about what kind of genealogy research we have done and then moved on to the spiritual power of taking a family name to the temple. They seemed to be struggling to bring up the topic so I decided to help them out (it must be really uncomfortable to say, “We noticed that you are not doing xyz, what’s up with that?”
😆 ). I shared with them that I had not paid tithing since the stillbirth of our third child 8 years ago and I do not have a TR. DW is considered a full tithe payer. Prior to the stillbirth I had internalized a motivation to pay tithing in exchange for blessings. Our child had a gestational age of 39 weeks and was “viable” for delivery. It would not have required a miracle in the truest sense of the word – if God had merely nudged me, DW, or our Dr. that the baby was in distress she might have lived. It could have been a “tender mercy”.Bishop said that he has learned to “trust God” even (perhaps especially) when things do not go according to plan. Bishop and SP said that they cared about us and offered if there was anything they could do to help to please reach out and let them know. The visit did end fairly quickly at that point but it did not feel abrupt or curt. They asked if we could end with a prayer. I asked DW if she had a preference on who would say it. DW demurred and I offered to say the prayer. I said in the prayer that we are thankful for the atonement through which we can keep trying, even when we make mistakes.
Yesterday bishop asked DW at church how we/she felt the visit went. Both bishop and SP felt the visit went well and that they had felt the spirit. DW said that she felt that the visit did go well and that it somewhat surprised her that I was so open about my situation. She said that she does not like trying to describe where I am spiritually as she usually says the wrong things.
This visit reminded me of SD’s experience in several ways. I get the impression that these two men are doing what they feel is right and that they genuinely care in their own way. I very much appreciate that they were not intrusive, argumentative, dismissive, or condescending. Meeting in our home seems to set the tone as a more peer to peer relationship/conversation. The tone may have been different in the bishop’s office or stake center. Overall a positive experience.
:thumbup: DarkJedi wrote:
“These are not the droids you’re looking for.”
:clap: Points for DJ!! Best post so far!! Haha.SilentDawning wrote:
I’m of the mind we should not be out for short-term wins, but long term caring and affirmation of people –
…but that is SO HARD!
:wtf: um…but yes…what you said…it really is what ministering is about. I mean, Apostles and GAs…they’re good salt of earth people…but they would be a fly by ministering visit. Not a long-term relationship building thing.Still…some people benefit from a kick in the pants by an authority…probably because those people that benefit from it were thinking they needed to go to church anyway…and the visit helped them feel what they were already wanting. And that is something too.
If a Cardinal of the Catholic Church came to my house…I’d be interested in what he had to say, especially if he had insights on loving our fellow neighbors. It wouldn’t necessarily make me want to go to the Catholic Church, unless I already was thinking I kinda wanted to. Otherwise, it would just be a nice visit from a nice guy.
Roy wrote:
I get the impression that these two men are doing what they feel is right and that they genuinely care in their own way. I very much appreciate that they were not intrusive, argumentative, dismissive, or condescending. Meeting in our home seems to set the tone as a more peer to peer relationship/conversation. The tone may have been different in the bishop’s office or stake center. Overall a positive experience.
I’m glad the experience went well! With meetings with the BP or SP, I always feel nervous. I don’t like having to explain myself over and over again. I don’t like to feel lectured or condemned. While on the one hand, I am grateful when they make the effort to reach out, I often feel the best case scenario is for the BP/SP to walk away feeling accomplished without anything really happening. There’s a HUGE difference between fellowshipping out of duty, and being a true friend.
Heber13 wrote:
If a Cardinal of the Catholic Church came to my house…I’d be interested in what he had to say, especially if he had insights on loving our fellow neighbors. It wouldn’t necessarily make me want to go to the Catholic Church, unless I already was thinking I kinda wanted to. Otherwise, it would just be a nice visit from a nice guy.
The big difference between a Catholic Cardinal and your local BP/SP, is the Cardinal recognizes you are not obligated to invite him into your home. You don’t believe in his authority over your soul, or in his ability to receive and relay divine revelation from God. Your relationship is based on its own merits, and so is his message. But the BP/SP feels its their God given stewardship to lord over you, receive revelation for you, and save your soul. If they come over, it’s on some level because you feel obligated, and not because you feel they have any interesting insights or mutual benefit to offer (at least, that’s what it usually feels like to me). They see me as a lost, fallen, apostate member, rather than a friend of the Church.
Old Timer wrote:
Quote:“Short-term win”?
Do you really think either person doesn’t care about people long-term?
Of course, they are looking for people who might be helped with a one-time visit from an apostle. I know two people who were visited by an apostle who was in the area, through a process exactly like what you describe. They both appreciated it – and one visit led to a baptism of an amazing man who still is active over 10 years later. I know one person where the request was not appreciated and was declined.
There is a HUGE difference between wanting to help someone who might be helped by a visit and “looking for a short-term win”.
I think the litmus test is — “would this SP have come out to see us if an Apostle had not been coming to town?”. I think the answer would have been “no”, so although we didn’t step up with TR-quality activity etcetera, he got his short term win — the ability to report to an apostle he had done some ministering. In other words, yes, perhaps he would like to see anyone come back for the long term, but his investment and energy was limited to what was necessary to be able to report to the Apostle that he had done it.
I believe only the SP and maybe God knows his true motives, but this thought occurred to me.
dande48 wrote:But the BP/SP feels its their God given stewardship to lord over you, receive revelation for you, and save your soul.
There are a few things going on that are good to identify and separate out and take into consideration with interactions from others.
1. Both the Cardinal and the BP/SP would likely be visiting from a place of love, from “long-term” welfare of your soul if they feel it can help in some way. They are motivated to want to help as they feel they can. That is something…it isn’t nothing. It can be received as an expression of love and concern.
2. The BP/SP may feel the stewardship, and therefore are visiting to satisfy their own conscience. They will have to answer to god on how they fulfilled their stewardship. So their motivation to visit is to say they did what they were called to do, and hope to do it as lovingly as possible.
The first point is little difference between a BP/SP and a minister of any other religion…simply just a good visit to help talk about God in our lives.
The 2nd point is all about them, and not you. I mean, they can tell me they will “lord over me” because of their authority. I have to decide if I accept that or not. If not, it is just a visit (#1), and really about their journey as they do their thing (how they are delivering a message).
I think it often happens, because much of it is #2…it is about them and what they are doing…that you can let them visit and talk and appreciate their effort, when invited or committed to just tell them you’ll think about it and you appreciate their time, but you can’t commit to anything now, and mostly likely they go on to their next visit and their next calling thing and keep doing “their thing” and you can ignore it and go on doing your thing. In other words…when it is about them doing their calling…they move on after fulfilling their assignment. It doesn’t have to mean anything more than that…and we don’t have to be offended by it…just accept it for what it is.
You don’t have to let it pressure you. You don’t have to agree they have authority over you just because they believe they do. It can just be accepted as a visit (#1 type scenario)…and taken as that and nothing more. The whole stewardship and “lord over you” thing is a story people can choose to have faith in or dismiss.
Separate out what they are doing from their perspective, from what is actually happening…and check the story you are drawing in your head about the events that are unfolding. Your story is just as valid as theirs.
Heber13 wrote:
1. Both the Cardinal and the BP/SP would likely be visiting from a place of love, from “long-term” welfare of your soul if they feel it can help in some way. They are motivated to want to help as they feel they can. That is something…it isn’t nothing. It can be received as an expression of love and concern.2. The BP/SP may feel the stewardship, and therefore are visiting to satisfy their own conscience. They will have to answer to god on how they fulfilled their stewardship. So their motivation to visit is to say they did what they were called to do, and hope to do it as lovingly as possible.
The first point is little difference between a BP/SP and a minister of any other religion…simply just a good visit to help talk about God in our lives.
The 2nd point is all about them, and not you. I mean, they can tell me they will “lord over me” because of their authority. I have to decide if I accept that or not. If not, it is just a visit (#1), and really about their journey as they do their thing (how they are delivering a message).
I think it often happens, because much of it is #2…it is about them and what they are doing…that you can let them visit and talk and appreciate their effort, when invited or committed to just tell them you’ll think about it and you appreciate their time, but you can’t commit to anything now, and mostly likely they go on to their next visit and their next calling thing and keep doing “their thing” and you can ignore it and go on doing your thing. In other words…when it is about them doing their calling…they move on after fulfilling their assignment. It doesn’t have to mean anything more than that…and we don’t have to be offended by it…just accept it for what it is.
I agree. It also can be a mixture of 1 and 2.
In my case the bishop and SP let me know that doing visits around ward conference was a regular thing. They also let me know that they like to get the visits in before ward conference but they fell behind this time around. Therefore, it was definitely a programmed visit.
I barely know the SP and do not think I would recognize him on sight. Therefore, for him to be motivated out of love and concern for me individually seems a little more difficult.
OTOH, my bishop and I have been in the same ward for almost a decade. He has seen my kids come up through the primary organization. In his case, I can visualize his motivation as a mixture of both genuine desire to help because he knows us and duty bound desire to help because it is his calling. Sometimes being placed in a position of responsibility for someone can help us get to know them and then love them … sometimes not.
dande48 wrote:
I often feel the best case scenario is for the BP/SP to walk away feeling accomplished without anything really happening.
Bishop, by asking my wife at church the next day how she feels that the visit went, somewhat revealed that these church leaders can also be anxious and nervous about these type of visits (My wife shared that she felt that it had gone really well and that he was surprised that I opened up as much as I did). If anything, the visit was a success for what
didn’thappen – The Bishop/SP did not call me to repentance and I did not get offended (and, as a bonus, they expressed love for our family and a desire to be of assistance if needed). :thumbup: Quote:The Bishop/SP did not call me to repentance and I did not get offended (and, as a bonus, they expressed love for our family and a desire to be of assistance if needed)
this should not be overlooked.
They do care.
I certainly am not doing as much service as they do.
It’s another one of these “to kudo or not to kudo” situations. One one hand, he is serving and giving his time liberally for the church and presumably to help others. On the other hand, he came out because a general authority is coming to town. No GA, no visit. He was nice to us because he thought we were inactive, but his tone was a bit accusing, and he was also fishing to see if the other stake/Bishop where we were attending allowed us to hold callings. I have seen SP’s be much more blunt and demanding when they think they “have you” — meaning — you are active, paying tithing and committed. But when they think you might come back to church, they are nice. So there is a kind of double standard for treating members based on whether you want something from them. A total mixed bag. My overall impression was one of cynicism because I truly felt he was only there to report to the GA that was coming to our stake that he’d been out ministering.
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