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During Viet Nam they could be dyed green. I don’t need symbolism in my life. I don’t need a reminder to be dressed appropriate. I don’t need outward signs of inner self. I am an adult. I do not need garments. Quote:I don’t need symbolism in my life. I don’t need a reminder to be dressed appropriate. I don’t need outward signs of inner self. I am an adult. I do not need garments.
I love symbolism in my life. I like reminders to be dressed appropriately – even if I define “appropriately” differently than lots of members. I like outward signs of inner self – especially when they really aren’t “outward” like many other religious symbols in other faith traditions. I am an adult. I do not need garments. I want garments due to my love of symbolism and Mormon cosmology.
Cadence isn’t wrong, and I’m not wrong. Cadence is one “I am”, and I am another “I am”.
It’s easy to exchange one black-and-white view for a different black-and-white view without realizing they just are differing manifestations of the same outlook.
Brian, my best friend also proposed that same idea…she was slightly serious and wanted to do it for herself not me. I think that could be quite painful. Lol, I love that more person than one has thought about this! I had another discussion with my fiance about going to the temple or not at all, I know I shouldn’t be, but I’m just so scared of being judged and/or not being considered “worthy” by my church leaders if I don’t wear them. I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that I don’t believe they are necessary for me(Although they can be a great symbol for some people) and that they would do more harm than good in my life. I just wish I wasn’t so scared and so worried about making my mom sad and my sisters judging me. On a positive note, this issue has led to some amazing discussions with my fiance and I’m so happy that I’m marrying such an open minded and understanding man. So glad none of my anxiety is about whether he is the right choice for me!
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:I don’t need symbolism in my life. I don’t need a reminder to be dressed appropriate. I don’t need outward signs of inner self. I am an adult. I do not need garments.
I love symbolism in my life. I like reminders to be dressed appropriately – even if I define “appropriately” differently than lots of members. I like outward signs of inner self – especially when they really aren’t “outward” like many other religious symbols in other faith traditions. I am an adult. I do not need garments. I want garments due to my love of symbolism and Mormon cosmology.
Cadence isn’t wrong, and I’m not wrong. Cadence is one “I am”, and I am another “I am”.
It’s easy to exchange one black-and-white view for a different black-and-white view without realizing they just are differing manifestations of the same outlook.
I can see the need for many of those things for many individuals. I just moved beyond them one day. Garments became if you will a symbol of captivity to me. A sign that I was in bondage to an organization that although I value because it is my culture it it requires to much for the value it offers. At lest to me. I am of the opinion the best thing that could happen to individual members of the church is to not rely on garments or the WofW anymore to define who they are. I would drop those two items from the theology tomorrow if I could. I say learn to survive in the real world with all its fantastic and troublesome events. Be a good person based on who you are not what you wear or what you do not eat.
HSAB wrote:So glad none of my anxiety is about whether he is the right choice for me!
:thumbup: Cadence, as I said, that approach works and can be good for you. It won’t work or be good for many other people. I’m cool with you seeing it that way, but I’m not cool with the implication of your original wording that if someone really is an adult, they won’t need / want garments – as if wearing garments is a sign of adolescence. It’s not – at least for lots of people. For lots of people, it actually is a sign of maturity.
It’s not the garments that is the issue; it’s the reason someone wears them. Someone can wear them for mature OR immature reasons – and someone can refuse to wear them for mature OR immature reasons. That’s important to realize.
Again, I have no problem with you choosing what works for you. It’s the implication of your wording relative to others that I felt needed to be addressed. That’s all.
Old-Timer wrote:Cadence, as I said, that approach works and can be good for you. It won’t work or be good for many other people.
I’m cool with you seeing it that way, but I’m not cool with the implication of your original wording that if someone really is an adult, they won’t need / want garments – as if wearing garments is a sign of adolescence. It’s not – at least for lots of people. For lots of people, it actually is a sign of maturity.
It’s not the garments that is the issue; it’s the reason someone wears them. Someone can wear them for mature OR immature reasons – and someone can refuse to wear them for mature OR immature reasons. That’s important to realize.
Again, I have no problem with you choosing what works for you. It’s the implication of your wording relative to others that I felt needed to be addressed. That’s all.
I do not believe I indicted anything like that. I even said I could see how others find value in the symbolism. My comments refer strictly to myself. I find no value in garments but I understand others do.
One of the challenges of this board is the wording that is used. I notice if you are into symbolism and abstract ideas you can say and express yourself how you feel with little or no comment to the contrary. If you believe in facts and evidence you tend to get reprimanded for your intolerance and insensitivity. I understand both worlds. I once was a true believer in it all. Then for various reasons I became a sceptic. I value truth and verifiable facts. I admit I do not live in the world of faith and nuance, but if I choose to state how I see the world I should be tolerated as much the person who is more of the “spiritual” world.
Maybe the purpose of this board really is to keep you LDS. I am good with that. I still attend church and participate regularly. I just want to be able to take what I view as a rational approach and not feel somehow diminished because I do not find value in symbolism or unseen things. It is the nature of religious people in general to find those of a more agnostic view suspect or wrong headed somehow. I believe it was Victor Hugo who said “toleration is the best religion” If you think it is hard for a religious person to put up with a sceptic, imagine how hard it is for a sceptic to tolerate a religious person. Fortunately we can all learn toleration and respect others point of view and beliefs.
I understand and have no problem at all with anything you just wrote, Cadence. Let me quote the exact comment I was referencing, bolding the specific part that jumped out at me, so you’ll see why I thought I needed to add what I did: Quote:I don’t need symbolism in my life. I don’t need a reminder to be dressed appropriate. I don’t need outward signs of inner self.
I am an adult. I do not need garments.There are lots of people here now who don’t know you like I do – and like the others who have been around a long time. That comment alone, especially the last two sentences placed where they are in the quote and following each other directly, carry an implication for those who don’t know you that you don’t need garments specifically because you are “an adult”. That’s all I was addressing in my response.
We both know we see things very differently than each other – that our actual outlooks/perspectives/vision modes are radically different. All I was doing, completely for the benefit of the new participants and lurkers, was pointing out that your statement is totally valid for you – but that the last two sentences don’t follow necessarily for everyone. You know that, but it wasn’t obvious to everyone else who doesn’t know you and me like we know each other.
It’s cool, so let’s let it drop, OK?
Brian Johnston wrote:I don’t normally wear them anymore on days that end in the letter “y.”
I take it you wear them on the Sabbath then.
😆
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