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Hawkgrrrl gave a great post over at BCC on this topic and I felt like it is a good excuse to “bump-up” this great thread. http://bycommonconsent.com/2013/05/13/female-garments-the-underwear-business/#comment-298379 Thanks, Roy! I was interested how many of the comments are about the fact that there is no covenant to wear them day & night, but the statement read in the TR interview states that there is. I have also been impressed at how the conversation has gone for the most part – people are faithful and pragmatic, not attacking each other (for the most part). I did notice a contradiction in some of the information that was provided by various commenters: Quote:.Evelyn T. Marshall, “Garments,” Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:534.
.During World War II, the First Presidency allowed nonwearing if the garment would be unavoidably be exposed to scoffing. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, 6:186. During the Korean War, “scoffing” was defined as more than “curiosity and light comment,” but the endowed soldier was allowed to use removable markings or marked two-piece underwear if required by military regulations.
and
Quote:From the Church Handbook of Instructions, section 21.1.42:
http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies#21.1.42 After garments are washed, they should not be hung in public areas to dry. Nor should they be displayed or exposed to the view of people who do not understand their significance.
soooooo which is it? Should we wear them when they will be seen by people who are unlikely to scoff or should we not wear them in situations where they will be “exposed to the view of people who do not understand their significance?”
Next question – Would it be more appropriate to be seen naked or be seen with garments on?
The following analogy helps me to explain how I see the garment:
If my body is a temple because it houses the “divine spark” within me, then the divine spark is the center of the sacredness (comparable the Holy of Holies or Most Holy Place). Or more specifically God is the center of the sacredness and my spirit is sacred in the context that it is connected to Him.
My physical body is also sacred as the house of my spirit just as the temple is the “House of the Lord.” It makes sense that my body should be treated with respect and care but it is not the source of the sacredness. From Solomon’s temple I might compare it to The Hekhal, or Holy Place, (1 Kings 8:8–10), also called the “greater house” (2 Chr. 3:5) and the “temple” (1 Kings 6:17); the word also means “palace.”
I have viewed the garment as special clothing that has been given to cover the nakedness of the physical body. It has significance of its own but is not as important or sacred as the physical body or the spirit within me. From Solomon’s temple I might compare it to The Inner Court (1 Kings 6:36), or Court of the Priests (2 Chr. 4:9). Treating the garment with respect in this sense is a way is an indirect way of treating the body and the spirit with respect and honor.
There is also outer clothing that serves many useful purposes. We can show honor and respect for our undergarments, body, and spirit by the way we dress. To continue the analogy from Solomon’s temple, this might be comparable to The Great Court that surrounded the whole Temple (2 Chr. 4:9). It was here that people assembled to worship. (Jeremiah 19:14; 26:2). I do not wish to imply anything about what styles or length of clothing someone might wear, only that I would wish them to dress to honor and respect their body and spirit.
The point of this analogy I believe is that it goes in a descending order from spirit to body to garments to outer clothing. If the needs of the spirit or body require a modification to the garments or outer clothing then that seems like the right thing to do. I believe it would be putting the cart before the horse to place the integrity of the garment our outer clothing before the needs of the spirit or the body. The [garment] was created for man, not man for the [garment].
P.S. This is my own analogy that seemed fitting to express my feelings about the garment. If there are any flaws or improvements to be made to this analogy, I am open to those things.
I did not read this entire post—so I don’t know if anyone else feels the same as I do—but I think garments are waaay more comfortable than underwear. no more uneven elastic legs that pull up your bum more on one side—and no more elastic to cut into the front of my leg when I sit down. I am built long through the “rise”, so i wear maternity garment bottoms so that I don’t have a seam riding up the front–the seam in maternity garments runs from side to side–I just buy the smallest size that fits. When I still had periods, I used to borrow my hubby’s old underwear because men’s underwear doesn’t have binding elastic around the legs—-thought it was pretty funny when i found out another gal in my ward did the same thing. I can’t wear the new garments that are cut like racing shorts—even though the seam runs side to side in them—they still climb for some reason. When I was nursing twins, I wore my bra under my garment top–it was much easier—I think the Lord will forgive me for that one. I often am sensitive to anything tight–so my bra is off during the day at home—If I choose to wear the snug fitting sheath top, it gives a little support–but the seams itch–my skin is sensitive.
My hubby is struggling with the church right now, but he still wears his garments–and feels the same way i do—that they are much more comfortable than regular underwear. I like the looseness of them under my clothes—certainly cooler under a dress on a hot day than something binding and tight.
I have no problem taking my garments off to put on something sexy for my hubby—especially since it makes me feel sexy, too. I put my garments back on later.
As far as the original poster, I have a feeling that maybe your reluctance about the garments has more to do with your eating disorder than anything else. I have two daughters with eating disorders—beautiful, identical twin girls—one of them nearly killed herself with her eating disorder. The way you see your body image is very different than what most people see. When I first got my garments i thought they were beautiful, white, shiny, with pretty lace around the edges—my hubby thinks they are a turn-off
but I have several nighties to remedy that.My experience with garments goes back to wrist and ankles with ties in the front and a collar. From there to 1 piece scooped neck that prompted startled comments one time in the locker room at the YMCA. In the Navy Reserve I had OD green tops that I wore to summer camp and now I wear two piece with crew neck so someone can’t look at me and decide on the basis of my undershirt outline if I’m one of the faithful. The only constant through all of this has been the marks. For me that’s been the sticking point, having to wear underclothes with masonic emblems. The last time I did washings and annointings I listened carfully and the instruction, not covenant, was to wear them throughout one’s life which as has been noted is at odds with the TR interview question. Garments serve as a reminder of the temple but for me that about it. Roy wrote:Next question – Would it be more appropriate to be seen naked or be seen with garments on?
That’s easy. Naked.
I was waiting for GB’s response to that question. 😆 Old-Timer wrote:I was waiting for GB’s response to that question.
😆 If he leaves one over the middle of the plate, what am I supposed to do?
🙂 GBSmith wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I was waiting for GB’s response to that question.
😆 If he leaves one over the middle of the plate, what am I supposed to do?
🙂 Touche!
:thumbup: momto11 – a couple quick comments. I think it’s been a while since you wore “regular” underwear – some of the more recent styles do not hav elastic touching the skin anywhere and are quite comfortable. There have been advances in the last few years in styles and comfort. However, I also feel garments are mostly comfortable. I don’t experience many of the issues other women described because I’m tall and average build and not very busty. My sister who is 6 inches shorter than I am and a hundred pounds heavier has had some issues with them, but she loves them and doesn’t want to go without. As to the over/under question with the bra, the instruction used to be to wear the bra over the garments, but this is no longer the case. Newly endowed women are told either over or under is fine. This is just an instruction matrons in the temple seem to make up based on their own understanding. There is nothing in writing on it anywhere.
For me there is nothing attractive or comfortable about garments. They undermine femininity big-time for me. And I’m getting to the point where I think that matters, that it is deserving of consideration. I think there will be a big wave of garment-related angst when all these sister missionaries arrive home. Ann – interesting point. I wonder whether there will be an impact from all the new sister missionaries serving now. Ugh, garments are the worst. Nothing but chafing, rashes, and cut off circulation, not to mention when they somehow grab on to your chest hair and rip it out while reaching for a stapler or something. I wear Under Armour under the garments when I need to do something physical for a long time, or just Under Armour when doing something physical for a short time. Works way better, no rashes, no chafing.
Ann it will be interesting to see what happens. I see it going one of two ways for the most part. Either there is angst as you say, or the return sisters will be so indoctrinated that they will be the next generation of church police for this topic. I hope that the church will have made true changes before they return. Here’s to hoping! I think modern nineteen-year-old women going on missions, by and large, will wear and view the garment very differently than many of their earlier, older-when-endowed-to-get-married predecessors did. Without getting explicit, my oldest daughter is nothing like her grandmothers and mother when it comes to this topic (or, really, underwear as a general topic) – and I don’t think she’s alone in that. My second daughter is more conservative when it comes to lots of things than her older sister, but numbers three and four are more like the oldest. I doubt it will cross their minds (or, at least, stay in their minds) to see the garment in the same way their fore-mothers did. I see a lot of cultural changes coming in the next couple of leadership generations.
hawkgrrrl wrote:momto11 – a couple quick comments. I think it’s been a while since you wore “regular” underwear – some of the more recent styles do not hav elastic touching the skin anywhere and are quite comfortable. There have been advances in the last few years in styles and comfort. However, I also feel garments are mostly comfortable. I don’t experience many of the issues other women described because I’m tall and average build and not very busty. My sister who is 6 inches shorter than I am and a hundred pounds heavier has had some issues with them, but she loves them and doesn’t want to go without.
As to the over/under question with the bra, the instruction used to be to wear the bra over the garments, but this is no longer the case. Newly endowed women are told either over or under is fine. This is just an instruction matrons in the temple seem to make up based on their own understanding. There is nothing in writing on it anywhere.
I like wearing my garment bottoms because they are like the biker shorts or they have some lycra in them. The older garment use to ride up my leg and I was constantly pulling them down, they’d crawl ride up and feel like big ole granny underwear. So it was heaven sent for me to wear the newer ones. But the top that is similar is suffocating to me. I bought two of them, and they sit in my drawer. I think I could buy bottoms that aren’t temple garments at the store, but they look more like a girdle (I don’t know how long I’ll be wearing garments). If I stop one day, it would be nice to keep wearing the bottoms similar to what I have in the garments. Also, I love wearing my bra over my garment top because then if I sweat or something then my bra doesn’t get stinky or dirty. Not to gross you out. So one day I’d need to find something to replace that also. Oh, but I wouldn’t miss the constant tugging at my garment top so it won’t be seen. I wear pretty modest shirts and the neckline isn’t low, it’s the sides of the shirt neckline, that my garments stick out that drives me crazy, I’m paranoid anyway though. I forgot what it was like when I didn’t wear garments.
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