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Old-Timer wrote:
I think modern nineteen-year-old women going on missions, by and large, will wear and view the garment very differently than many of their earlier, older-when-endowed-to-get-married predecessors did. Without getting explicit, my oldest daughter is nothing like her grandmothers and mother when it comes to this topic (or, really, underwear as a general topic) – and I don’t think she’s alone in that. My second daughter is more conservative when it comes to lots of things than her older sister, but numbers three and four are more like the oldest. I doubt it will cross their minds (or, at least, stay in their minds) to see the garment in the same way their fore-mothers did.
I see a lot of cultural changes coming in the next couple of leadership generations.
Do you think they emphasise more now than say in the 70’s and 80’s on modesty, therefore the younger generation will already be use to the “no shoulders seen” mentality. So garments will be a walk in the park for them? I think this generation coming up might just be the chosen generation we keep hearing about.Tacenda: Quote:Also, I love wearing my bra over my garment top because then if I sweat or something then my bra doesn’t get stinky or dirty.
I call it my anchor. I do the same thing, and I agree – I think it saves bras and shirts from deterioration due to sweat.
hawkgrrrl–appreciated your comments. There were some more comfortable underwear that you could buy before i started wearing garments that did not have elastic–they were kind of stretchy all over and didn’t have that tight seam that cut into the leg. I can believe that they have come up with much better underwear as far as comfort, also. I didn’t know that the church had changed their “statement” or however I should say it, about wearing your bra over or under the garment was alright. I was just so much easier when trying to nurse two babies at once to have my bra under my garments–then i could just pull everything up together!!LOL!!
These days, I prefer to wear my bra, when I wear it, OVER my garments, because my skin is so sensitive that my bra rubs uncomfortably against my skin.
When My twins recently got married, the thing that surprised me, was that they told them they shouldn’t be hung out on a clothes line where people could see—-i had never been told that when i got married. I used to love to hang my garments on the line when I had one—because they smelled so good—at least my back yard was relatively private. If I should ever have a clothes line again, I willhave to find a way to hang them on the line and still be respectful of not letting them be out in public view—Maybe hand them between 2 rows of sheets?
I love that we can talk about things on this board without people being unkind—even if they feel differently about things—people even seem to be able to correct people, if you want to call it that, with out there being a sense of “chewing them out”.
I was on another board at one time, when I was having my “spiritual crisis”—and felt like I was ripped to shreds for questioning things and for being upset with leaders. Then I found this board, purely by accident, and people were so much kinder. I may have even been told some similar things I was told on the other board—but they were said with a totally different spirit—and this other board was, I think, a more “traditional believers” board.
I appreciate the people who have told me they could see a change in me from my earlier posts, or people who have told me they appreciated what I had to say.
Thanks
Christine
momto11 wrote:When My twins recently got married, the thing that surprised me, was that they told them they shouldn’t be hung out on a clothes line where people could see—-i had never been told that when i got married. I used to love to hang my garments on the line when I had one—because they smelled so good—at least my back yard was relatively private. If I should ever have a clothes line again, I willhave to find a way to hang them on the line and still be respectful of not letting them be out in public view—Maybe hand them between 2 rows of sheets?
I think there are many Garment do’s and don’ts that are entirely made up. Ever heard that they shouldn’t touch the floor, or that they should be washed seperately, or that they should be washed by hand? Have you heard that they shouldn’t be seen by people who wouldn’t understand their meaning, but that they shouldn’t be removed just to avoid curious questions from others? Have you heard that the garment top and the garment bottom must always be worn together and you must never pin or otherwise modify the garment, but that the garments shouldn’t be removed for activities that could reasonably be done with them on.
I think the garment should be respected both as a reminder of sacred promises and out of deference to all the individuals that view the garment itself as sacred. I believe how you choose to go about showing that respect should be up to you.
I would love the temple recommend question to be: Quote:Do you continue to commit to wear the garment throughout your life and not defile it?
That is the actual temple covenant, and it leaves the specifics up to the individual.
Old-Timer wrote:I would love the temple recommend question to be:
Quote:Do you continue to commit to wear the garment throughout your life and not defile it?
That is the actual temple covenant, and it leaves the specifics up to the individual.
This would be heavenly.
Ann wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I would love the temple recommend question to be:
Quote:Do you continue to commit to wear the garment throughout your life and not defile it?
That is the actual temple covenant, and it leaves the specifics up to the individual.
This would be heavenly.
if the question is “Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?”, then the key is “in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple.” Ray is being very clear on this — since the actual covenant is to wear it throughout your live and not defile it, then any other interpretation is outside of the covenant i made in the temple.Chuang Tzu, an ancient chinese philosopher who explored how words do not represent the meaning of our thoughts, said, “I would like to know someone who has forgotten the words so I can have a real conversation.” When I hear the TR question about when I wear the garment, I hear the words about the covenant i made in the temple. That is the meaning to me. all other words are irrelevant.
Old-Timer wrote:I would love the temple recommend question to be:
Quote:Do you continue to commit to wear the garment throughout your life and not defile it?
That is the actual temple covenant, and it leaves the specifics up to the individual.
Not to belabor the point but I recall the instruction in the washing and anointing part of the endowment to wear the garment throughout my life and not defile it but I don’t remember any covenant that I swore to keep either then or later. Did I miss something or is there one of the covenants that is meant to include it?
Right out of the handbook. https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies?lang=eng This addresses some of the things Roy said.
Quote:Temple Clothing and Garments
Endowed members are encouraged to purchase their own temple clothing for use when performing temple ordinances. This sacred clothing may be purchased through Church Distribution Services. Some temples also have temple clothing available for rent. If a temple does not have rental clothing, members need to bring temple clothing with them.
Members may make their own temple aprons only if they use the approved apron embroidery and sewing kit that is available through Church Distribution Services. Other temple ceremonial clothing may not be made. Nor may temple garments be made.
Church members who have been clothed with the garment in a temple have taken upon themselves a covenant obligation to wear it according to the instructions given in the endowment. The garment provides a constant reminder of the covenants made in a temple. When properly worn, it provides protection against temptation and evil. Wearing the garment is also an outward expression of an inward commitment to follow the Savior.
Endowed members should wear the temple garment both day and night. They should not remove it, either entirely or partially, to work in the yard or for other activities that can reasonably be done with the garment worn properly beneath the clothing. Nor should they remove it to lounge around the home in swimwear or immodest clothing. When they must remove the garment, such as for swimming, they should put it back on as soon as possible.
Members should not adjust the garment or wear it contrary to instructions in order to accommodate different styles of clothing. Nor should they alter the garment from its authorized design. When two-piece garments are used, both pieces should always be worn.
The garment is sacred and should be treated with respect at all times. Garments should be kept off the floor. They should also be kept clean and mended. After garments are washed, they should not be hung in public areas to dry. Nor should they be displayed or exposed to the view of people who do not understand their significance.
Members who have made covenants in the temple should be guided by the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves personal questions about wearing the garment.
To dispose of worn-out temple garments, members should cut out and destroy the marks. Members then cut up the remaining fabric so it cannot be identified as a garment. Once the marks are removed, the fabric is not considered sacred.
To dispose of worn-out temple ceremonial clothing, members should destroy the clothing by cutting it up so the original use cannot be recognized.
Members may give garments and temple clothing that are in good condition to other worthy endowed members. The bishop can identify those who might need such clothing. Under no circumstances should members give garments or temple ceremonial clothing to Deseret Industries, bishops’ storehouses, or charities.
Information about ordering temple clothing or ordering garments for those in special circumstances (such as members serving in the military, members who are bedfast, or members with disabilities) is provided in Handbook 1, 3.4.
So the handbook says the covenant is what is said in the temple – but then, due to members asking too many questions and needing to be commanded in all things, it adds a list of “shoulds” to shut up members and stop them from asking so many questions. 🙄 I’m okay with the covenant part being applicable to everyone and applying the “should” parts according to the dictates of my conscience.
Quote:Members who have made covenants in the temple should be guided by the Holy Spirit to answer for themselves personal questions about wearing the garment.
It is interesting that after the list of “shoulds” or “shouldn’ts” we’re told it’s ok to be guided by the spirit.
Quote:It is interesting that after the list of “shoulds” or “shouldn’ts” we’re told it’s ok to be guided by the spirit.
Yup – which is evidence to me that the Brethren would rather not get the questions that lead to should and shouldn’t and wish the membership would stop asking those questions.
So, the handbook says, ultimately, that we should wear the garment throughout our lives, not defile it and decide for ourselves exactly how to wear it – with some general guidelines to consider that aren’t part of the actual covenant.
I’m cool with that.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:It is interesting that after the list of “shoulds” or “shouldn’ts” we’re told it’s ok to be guided by the spirit.
Yup – which is evidence to me that the Brethren would rather not get the questions that lead to should and shouldn’t
and wish the membership would stop asking those questions.So, the handbook says, ultimately, that we should wear the garment throughout our lives, not defile it and decide for ourselves exactly how to wear it – with some general guidelines to consider that aren’t part of the actual covenant.
I’m cool with that.
I think we can guess what kind of statement from them would stop the membership from asking those questions. How I wish they could just come at this cleanly.
Ann, members complain when the leadership says not to send them basic questions that can be answered at the local level. It’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation – so I am fine with them not addressing lots of things directly that would suck them into the quicksand of being expected to answer everything directly and, instead, leaving the direction in written form and complaining privately to each other about the membership continuing to ask to be commanded in all things. (I have no proof that they complain to each other in that manner, but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least.)
😈 hawkgrrrl wrote:momto11 – a couple quick comments. I think it’s been a while since you wore “regular” underwear – some of the more recent styles do not hav elastic touching the skin anywhere and are quite comfortable. There have been advances in the last few years in styles and comfort. However, I also feel garments are mostly comfortable. I don’t experience many of the issues other women described because I’m tall and average build and not very busty. My sister who is 6 inches shorter than I am and a hundred pounds heavier has had some issues with them, but she loves them and doesn’t want to go without.
As to the over/under question with the bra, the instruction used to be to wear the bra over the garments, but this is no longer the case. Newly endowed women are told either over or under is fine. This is just an instruction matrons in the temple seem to make up based on their own understanding. There is nothing in writing on it anywhere.
Is that in writing anywhere. My bro-in-law (not active) can’t stand that his wife wears her bra over her top. It was some old fuddy duddy who insisted on her first visit and she’s never been able to change it.
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