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wuwei wrote:
I like the “adults of god” concept very much.
Me too. I’m going to ingrain this into my life.
wuwei wrote:God didn’t give us agency and reason just so we could ignore reason and turn our agency over to the church.
I think God gave the power to reason more strongly to some than to others. I sometimes get the impression that my ability to reason and think for myself is looked at as influence from the adversary.
wuwei wrote:Its always easier to just follow someone you think is inspired from god instead of seeking him yourself. But its not a substitute.
It is also my impression that this is standard and encouraged. I may be leaving if I can’t get past this.
rebeccad wrote:The problem is that what people are told is up to the whim of the temple worker who talks to them that day.
I would really like if what was written stayed the same, and nothing was added to it.
What we really need is consistency!
I think the problem is that we are willing to accept and open ourselves up to what the temple worker is telling us in first place. I think if we make decesions on how to wear our underwear based on what some random stranger tells us, we are setting ourselves up for some difficulty. I think what we really need is not to ask the temple worker in the first place.
Quote:I think what we really need is not to ask the temple worker in the first place.
Yup.
There’s this old saying:
Quote:Ask a stupid question; get a stupid answer.
AngryMormon wrote:rebeccad wrote:The problem is that what people are told is up to the whim of the temple worker who talks to them that day.
I would really like if what was written stayed the same, and nothing was added to it.
What we really need is consistency!
I think the problem is that we are willing to accept and open ourselves up to what the temple worker is telling us in first place. I think if we make decesions on how to wear our underwear based on what some random stranger tells us, we are setting ourselves up for some difficulty. I think what we really need is not to ask the temple worker in the first place.
In my case I didn’t ask the temple workers, the temple president sat down with me and told me how the garments were expected to be worn, and treated. So all the information I received on them I took to be the the “company line” on the subject. Not just one mans interpretation.
I don’t think anyone is wrong in stating that prevailing church interpretationof wearing the garment is that it stays on your body day and night, and should only be removed for showering, sex, and certain activities like swimming or team sports. As well, it should be treated with respect (not defiled), and generally not exposed (requiring clothing that goes beyond the knees and shoulders). I believe the more important question is whether the “prevailing church interpretation” is indeed a commandment or a requirement for being “worthy”. I personally think the answer to that is “no”. The “Covenant” in the temple is stated in these terms: If you wear it throughout you life and not defile it, it will be a shield and protection to you. This is a principle with promise, not a commandment. If I choose not to wear the physical garment, then in that moment, it cannot be a shield and protection to me. If I wear the garment, literally, it is a physical modesty shield (coupled with covering clothing) and a protection from observation — much like a burka is for muslim women. Symbolically, the garment is a reminder of my covenants — in that way, wearing it is also a protection — by being reminded of my covenants, I’m protected from making certain choices.
I personally wear the garment along the lines of the prevailing interpretation. There have been times, in some very hot climates, that I have had to remove the top because it simply would cause more sweating than it’s worth. Is that wrong? No. it’s necessary — it’s reasonable, and as many of you have noted, it’s an adult thing to do.
I don’t object that the garment is sacred and should be treated with respect, but so are we. Quote:I don’t object that the garment is sacred and should be treated with respect, but so are we.
That might be the best summary of this issue I’ve ever read.
This is the long thread on garments I am bumping up for maggiemoo. HSAB wrote:So I’m left with the decision of do I get married in the temple or not? Should I make commitments to God knowing that I probably will not be keeping them? It’s also spiraling me downward in the rest of my beliefs a little bit, because if I don’t believe garments are necessary-which I’m pretty sure I don’t. (But, again, haven’t been through the temple yet.) Then, what else might not be true or necessary? I’ve been doing a lot of research on the history of garments and it’s making me feel like they were not meant to be what we use them as now. Has anyone been through something similar? Does anyone have any insight? I know 100% I believe in the book of mormon and that the priesthood power is real, but aside from that I am starting to really question.
Reading this post stirs up emotion for me. I loved my first temple experience, and I am not out to bash the temple. I have big problems with it, but I also love it. It is kind of crazy. I want to respect the ritual, and hopefully someone will let me know if I am out of line, but the covenants you make in the temple aren’t really explained. You are given one chance, at the beginning to accept or reject all the covenants you will make. After that the ceremony gets symbolic and progressive, and after each step you will be told of the covenant you can enter into, then asked if you will accept it. There is a little time to think, but you may not feel a chance to ask about it. Hey, if you do do this, remember that temple workers are beautiful saints who really care about you. There is a pause button. Don’t feel rushed. If I could go back in time I would be brave enough to not get rushed and would ask for explanation or maybe even more time.
It seems like this is going to eat away at you. I personally would not make a covenant I feel I am going to break. The thing that concerns me when I feel I have to do something I don’t feel good about in the Church, is why I do it. For me I realize it is often fear. I don’t want to be motivated by fear in religion.
“What else might be true or necessary.” This is a great question. I suggest you pray and journal on this one. But be prepared because your heart may tell you some things that are a little hard to take at first, but you will realize you knew it the whole time. Good luck to you. This is no small thing and I hope it works out for you.
I remember that back before they had two piece garments, men in my ward that served in the Navy aboard submarines were told to cut out the markings and pin then to a pair of boxer underwear because aboard the boats they did a lot of the work just in their underwear because it was so hot. They were told this because the one piece garments were just to different to be worn in plain site for the crew see. That saved the members a lot of trouble. When I went to Iraq I bought military garments and the markings were stenciled on the inside of the shirts so that when we had to work just in our undershirts we looked just like the rest of the servicemen. My last post was to show that it is the markings that are important and not the underwear itself. Why the church puts such importance in our clothes is beyond my understanding. My wife has a hard time buying clothes because of the sleeve issue and a lot of the outfits she does buy she has to wear some kind of Tee shirt underneath to cover her garments and it just doesn’t look exactly right, plus that adds an extra layer of clothes. She doesn’t complain because that has been what she is use to and because her Mom had to do it before her. After reading some of the women’s feelings about all this it makes me question the whole issue. It does make it feel like we are being controlled more and more. Same thing with the white shirts. Sometimes I have to tell myself to quit thinking about it so much because as you can see from the time that I am posting this that it keeps me up at night. Quote:Sometimes I have to tell myself to quit thinking about it so much because as you can see from the time that I am posting this that it keeps me up at night.
Yeah, obsession over the trees that stand out can rob a person of the ability to see the forest. I don’t like some of the cultural trees, but I really do love the forest itself and most of the trees in it.
I am digging up an old thread mostly because I have thoughts I want to share and want to get other’s insights on that are related. I will also admit, I only read bits and pieces, not the entire thread. My dad has told me how much all women hate garments because they were designed by men with no regard to women. I have yet to point out to him the irony of his telling me how much I should hate garments because “old white men shouldn’t be dictating young single women’s underwear.” But I loved garments the second time I put them on. I hated the first time because I took everyone’s advice of “Carinnessa is the best!” even though I know I hate that sort of material usually. As soon as my first temple experience was done, I went and bought several sets of cotton and have been happy ever since.
Most of the common complaints weren’t an issue for me, once I’d settled on cotton and silky. For example, I always thought my shoulders were too broad, so I never wanted to go sleeveless. Cap sleeves weren’t an issue. My garments, when worn under my bra, actually allow for a lot more cleavage to show than I was ever allowed as a YW. And the bottoms are basically pure magic. I don’t have that illusive thigh gap, but enjoy wearing skirts. It’s much more comfortable to walk in skirts with something on my upper thighs. I also love, as several others stated, not having the elastic leg holes or panty lines.
And “happy ever since” has lasted until recently. While I never suffered from an eating disorder, I have had an unhealthy relationship with food for many years and poor body image. It has been improving consistently for about the last 8 or so years – since about halfway through college. I have recently been putting a lot of extra effort into making significant and lasting improvements to my health. I have also been progressing in Taekwondo (I’m a black belt, and, as is obvious, will work that in anywhere I can possibly fit it). This had led to me liking my body in new styles and clothes. I really like how I look in a sports bra and tank top. Like, love that look. I enjoy shirts with wider collars and lower backs. And many of the slimmer clothes I prefer work best with silky garments, but silky garments cause me to itch if I exert myself while wearing them. If I’m just at work, this is no issue. But going out to walk around the city is more of a problem.
I have never worked out in garments, and recently I’ve decided I want to really like the underwear I have for workouts. And this ties back to “men design garments” point because men also design secular underwear for women. I want undies that come down my thigh. I can’t find them in stores. Instead I can find thongs and sexy little things. Which are fine and fun and cute. But I can see in many of those as much influence of the male perspective as I can in garments any day. I just want to feel good in every circumstance. And I’m trying to navigate what places I consider wearing of garments non-important. I like them for general everyday use. But sometimes, I would prefer something less restrictive. And I’m having trouble finding secular replacements that give me some of the same (purely physical) benefits I find in my garments – especially the bottoms.
I don’t think I really have a question. I just really wanted to express my thoughts on the matter. What I have read of the thread has reminded me it’s not all or nothing. I can find some normal undies that work for me and wear them when I want and still wear garments for activities where I feel they are able to be worn with proper respect and sufficient comfort. It’s been tough thinking things through because so much of the church is framed in a false dichotomy: either I’m wearing garments 24/7 or I have abandoned wearing garments at all. I am finding a middle way. As with all things.
I am so happy to hear you are finding a way that makes sense for you. HSAB wrote:
I put on the shorts and I feel disgusting, fat and ugly. I also feel like a boy.
It’s probably already been mentioned, but the original garment was more like a dress. Yet I don’t believe Adam felt like a girl. It just depends on one’s cultural programming.Ultimately, you are a Latter Day Saint, and your garments identify you as such. You should not be ashamed. The garments are a gift from God. Wear then with grattitude.
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