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RagDollSallyUT wrote:
I will have to find my temple outside the temple.
What an eloquent way to put it. I am now seeking the same thing. I love how Brian mentions in the ‘How to Stay in the Church’ essay that we should “supplement our spirituality.” I don’t want to simply have to live with the loss of the temple and the spiritual bonuses that it brought me, so I’m determined to find other things that can be equally fulfilling for me. I don’t know what yet. I’ve tried other churches but they seem to be basically the same church with different songs. I’ve heard that yoga is a wonderfully spiritual experience, but my previous experiences were accompanied with a lot of physical discomfort…. I guess I will keep working on it.
Thank you, Wayfarer. That thread is very thought provoking indeed. As I am now, I can’t think of an approach that would allow me to say ‘yes’ without feeling like I’m being dishonest to both myself and the interviewer. Perhaps in time that will change as my mind continues to expand and my heart continues to heal.
🙂 Garments are just a control mechanism in the church. Like the Word of Wisdom it is just an outward sign of your obedience to the church. Personally I think they have nothing to do with spirituality and a lot to do with superstition. I also agree they have done much damage to the intimacy of couples in the church. I wore them for over 30 years. Then one day I said enough and put them in a drawer. LIfe is much much better without them. In fact I refuse to put them on at anytime. I will not be forced into irrational behavior. Quote:Garments are just a control mechanism in the church.
Nope, don’t agree at all. I love the symbolism, even as I understand the issues involved.
Quote:Like the Word of Wisdom it is just an outward sign of your obedience to the church.
Nope, don’t agree at all (especially in situations where they can’t be seen at all). There are definite benefits to the WofW, even as I understand the issues involved.
Quote:Personally I think they have nothing to do with spirituality and a lot to do with superstition.
Nope – and yep.
Quote:I also agree they have done much damage to the intimacy of couples in the church.
Yes, for some – and not in the slightest for others.
Quote:I wore them for over 30 years. Then one day I said enough and put them in a drawer. LIfe is much much better without them. In fact I refuse to put them on at anytime.
I respect that – for you and others who view them similarly.
Quote:I will not be forced into irrational behavior.
Neither will I – but I wear the garment religiously, since it’s not irrational in the slightest for me.
Cadence wrote:Garments are just a control mechanism in the church. Like the Word of Wisdom it is just an outward sign of your obedience to the church. Personally I think they have nothing to do with spirituality and a lot to do with superstition. I also agree they have done much damage to the intimacy of couples in the church. I wore them for over 30 years. Then one day I said enough and put them in a drawer. LIfe is much much better without them. In fact I refuse to put them on at anytime. I will not be forced into irrational behavior.
I will counter Ray and agree with all of your post.
🙂 Is not wearing garments a “sin?”
Perhaps I said this already in this thread, I don’t know, it’s too damn long to go back read it all, but, there came a time in my life when things like garments and tea, and all the lists of shoulds and should nots, became a stumbling block and a huge distraction in my pursuit of finding the gods. I became so focused on the lists, that I lost the gods and I struggled to hear the spirit teaching me and guiding me.
Now, was this the fault of the lists and being a pharisee? Or is it the fault of my spiritual energy? I don’t know…but I certainly understood the spiritual message of looking beyond the mark and the repeated warnings of Pharisaical practice and beliefs…
I listened to “the spirit.” I walked away from it all…all the lists and man made teachings…and my chi has been better ever since.
Many Mormon would say that I am prideful and arrogant to say such a thing. That I put my own feelings and the “man made” doctrines before the counsel of the prophets and the commandments of god, and that I am just rebellious, and that I am sacrificing my temple recommend and exaltation because I am lazy and want to “sin.”
Well, I don’t care what they say anymore.
I don’t think that’s a counter to my comment, cwald – since I said explicitly that I respect walking away from something when there is no meaning left in it. I’m just saying garments have great symbolic meaning for many, many people and are not nothing more than a control issue. I respect you and Cadence, but I think Cadence’s comment is a good example of the type of black-and-white statement both of you tend to abhor and reject when it comes from a more traditional member.
It’s really easy to see when others do or say something we don’t like; it’s a bit harder to see when we do or say the exact same thing in nature.
Old-Timer wrote:… but I think Cadence’s comment is a good example of the type of black-and-white statement both of you tend to abhor and reject…
Touche’.
🙂 Old-Timer wrote:I don’t think that’s a counter to my comment, cwald – since I said explicitly that I respect walking away from something when there is no meaning left in it.
I’m just saying garments have great symbolic meaning for many, many people and are not nothing more than a control issue. I respect you and Cadence, but I think Cadence’s comment is a good example of the type of black-and-white statement both of you tend to abhor and reject when it comes from a more traditional member.
It’s really easy to see when others do or say something we don’t like; it’s a bit harder to see when we do or say the exact same thing in nature.
I admit it, I am a black and white thinker. 50 years in the church taught me there is only good and evil. No middle ground. It is only natural that I see the world in that way still.
Symbolism? Sure I can see that. I guess if you are into that sort of thing then OK. I just do not need symbolism in my life. I do not see value in it personally. So that is why things like garments have no value to me. It is just a rule that you wear them. I would need some rational physical reason to do something. Cant see one for wearing garments so I see it as a control mechanism by logical conclusion.
So maybe this is not the place for me anymore. I am just disruptive I guess. I just can not see value in nuance and symbolism. I am not emotionally vested anymore in the church. It could disappear tomorrow and would not make much difference to me. I think the world and universe are so much bigger and spectacular than the minimalistic nature of the church. I think I will take a break for some time, and limit posting.
Cadence wrote:So maybe this is not the place for me anymore. I am just disruptive I guess.
FWIW, I am wondering the same thing, though perhaps I am more annoying than disruptive. The problem is, I have nowhere else to go, so I personally appreciate hearing your perspective from time to time.doug wrote:Cadence wrote:So maybe this is not the place for me anymore. I am just disruptive I guess.
FWIW, I am wondering the same thing, though perhaps I am more annoying than disruptive. The problem is, I have nowhere else to go, so I personally appreciate hearing your perspective from time to time.Exactly. I almost wrote this exact post in the mormonThink thread.
Hang in there.
We’ve strayed far from the focus of this post, but I’m responsible as anyone for that. 
I would hate to lose any of you three, Cadence, Doug and cwald – although I do think cwald’s plan for the rest of the day is a good one to lower his blood pressure. Each of you adds an important element to our conversations that we would miss if it wasn’t present. We need to have differing perspectives here to be what we want to be.
There certainly is a place here for black-and-white thinkers, but those black-and-white thinkers need to realize the tension between competing black-and-white viewpoints isn’t entirely the “fault” of those other black-and-white thinkers – that any naturally opposing black-and-white views are going to clash and that, sometimes, the only way to lower or eliminate the tension is, at the very least, to accept that others’ black-and-white views are nothing more than the honest, sincere way that those others see things.
It’s one thing to say, “I can’t accept that view and disagree strongly with it” – but quite another to say, “That view is illogical, stupid, worthless, etc. – and anyone who believes that is a fool.”
Seriously, my only problem with your comment, Cadence, was the implication that seeing it any other way is stupid and illogical. I have NO problem with you or your view – and I am sincere in saying we would lose greatly if you stopped contributing altogether. You expect those of us who disagree with you on some things to have a thick skin and accept it anyway. All I’m asking is that you return the favor. You call us out all the time, and I’m cool with that. Just allow us to call you out occasionally and be cool with it. I want and value your input; I hope you want and value mine – even if for no other reason than to reinforce your own by seeing how much you disagree with mine.
😆 Quote:I think the world and universe are so much bigger and spectacular than the minimalistic nature of the church.
I think all of us here feel that way, fwiw.
Now, let’s get back to the point of the post and let this drop.
I have new and troubling feelings about garments. I have worn them my whole married life, and am faithful in thought and deed in my marriage. But reports I’ve heard about “them” “cracking down” on garment-wearing strikes something like terror in me. I hate feeling this way. I feel intruded upon and controlled, not trusted and respected. I hadn’t heard of such a “crackdown” (I actually thought that was part of a joke when I first read it) but that would be disturbing news indeed if it were true. Fwiw, I haven’t heard of any “crackdown” on wearing garments. It’s pretty much impossible to do, in practical terms. Sorry about the poorly chosen word. And I should wait to hear the new wording of the recommend question. My understanding is that there are added pointed questions about wearing them for several different activities. If that is the case, it will strike me as inappropriate and uninspired. We’re asked whether we pay a full tithe. Period. Not whether we pay on gross or net income, before or after exactly which taxes and deductions. I’m asked about the Word of Wisdom. Not whether I cook with wine, or should really lose twenty pounds. The obsession with what we (and women in particular) wear is becoming stronger. For the record, I’m a middle-aged person who anyone would describe and modest in dress. Garments are already very difficult for many women for a variety of reasons. Being checked up on, scrutinized and commanded in every little thing, IF that is the case, will lessen my trust in our leaders. The wording simply emphasizes that the Church sees wearing garments as important. It’s a blurb that is then followed by the exact same question as has been asked for a long time. It’s nothing more than that – and if any leader makes it more than that, it is going beyond the scope of what should be.
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