GC Talk and The Rest of the Story

[Anonymous]

Quote:

When people get criticized, they often are criticized for things they didn’t actually say. People tend to read and hear things that confirm their own confirmation biases, just as people tend to tell things based on theirs.

Elder Stephenson never said all the missionaries throughout the entire coastal regions attended the meeting. He said what would have been a district meeting was extended to all missionaries in that zone (including those from “several coastal cities”, NOT all of the coastal cities). The online discussion accounts confirm that.

Technically, his statement was 100% correct, but he still got accused of lying about it.

I see the same thing in the second story: people reacting to their impressions of what he meant and what they saw as being implied, not ncessarily what he actually said.

I am sensitive to this for a simple reason. I choose my words carefully, especially when communicating online, and it is amazing how often I get criticized for things I don’t say. It happens all. the. time.

I don’t think for one moment that Elder Stevenson was lying or deliberately misleading anyone. Perhaps if he had known some of those additional details (I have no idea what he did or didn’t know) he might have rephrased his story a bit. But the fact is, we tell all kinds of stories all the time. Most of them simply don’t get recorded, copied down, and endlessly analyzed. (A fact,I am personally grateful for). But a personal story to illustrate how easily small events can get out of hand.

I was visiting with a lady in my ward who related to me in excited tones about something that happened to a wheel-chair bound sister in our ward. Apparently, she had had some difficulties transferring herself from her wheelchair to her armchair (she is somewhat mobile) and slipped to the floor. No one was home and all she could do (according to this sister) was pray and pray for the bishop to come and help her. The bishop felt some kind of prompting and did go to her house and provide aid. She concluded the story with a big smile and a statement about how the spirit works in our lives. Well, due to circumstances I won’t go into, I found myself in the home of the wheel-chair bound sister that very day and was going to ask about the incident when she began (unprompted) to tell me about what had happened. Indeed, she had found herself on the floor but, luckily, had her cell phone right by her and began calling people for help. She reached a friend and the bishop, both of whom came to give her some help. Her point was gratitude that she had her cell phone handy.

I was amazed to see right before me the origins of a potential “faith-promoting story” that seemed to illustrate a spiritual point when the truth was much more mundane.

[Anonymous]

I remember STephen R Covey speaking at one of our Stake Conferences. He made a point about how important it is to be honest.

Then he kept correcting himself in his stories. He told one about a conversation that he had with Victor Frankl, author of Man’s Search for Meaning. How that convo happened “the night before Victor died”. Then Covey corrected himself and said “No, TWO nights before he died”. We are under such pressure to say something testimony meetings, to inspire people in our talks, it’s easy to embellish the truth.

It makes me wonder just how much of the new testament I can trust as a result. Christ didn’t write the new testament, men did, and men that apparently loved him and respected him. It wouldn’t surprise me if they embellished his life a lot. A lot of what inspires us isn’t all that dramatic, I’ve found. To get others to listen, people dramatize. That’s why you get “Based on a true story” in a lot of movies, or disclaimers that certain liberties have been taken with the story.

My solution is to take it all with a massive truckload of salt, let the fiction inspire you if you want…you can feel the spirit in hollywood stories even though they are all made up. And it can inspire you to do good. I’ll make sure I never pass off something as based in reality when I’m not sure it is…

[Anonymous]

This topic did get under my skin a bit. I even wrote a blog post on it Is Whitewashing Continuing Today?

At Mormon Discussion Podcast there was a guest podcaster that really dug into this topic also http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/04/extra-radio-free-mormon-april-2017-conference-autopsy-report/” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/04/extra-radio-free-mormon-april-2017-conference-autopsy-report/

[Anonymous]

Looking Hard:

That particular essay is a personal favorite. Beautifully done.

I had considered attending services last Sunday with DH until I got an email from the RS. The lesson in RS was going to be based on the Stephenson GC talk. I could not attend services knowing that they would be discussing that talk and handling it as full of Faith Promoting experiences.

That let me here to growl like some angry momma bear.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for sharing and starting this thread…I’m just getting to read it now and like the comments.

I agree with nibbler, in that I don’t enjoy those stories. But stories they are, which are told for the purpose of teaching. I usually hold out on judgment, not knowing all the facts, and not knowing who I can trust about facts. My personal experience over the years has left me cynical that way, and I don’t want to be the fool to believe stories and later found out there was nuance or another side to the story.

I guess I hold my opinion based on what I hear, but also try to be open to not having certainty.

I think we live in this world now that makes us that way. I mean…honestly…watch CNN or watch the political landscape…and try to be certain on what are facts vs alternative facts. It makes my head spin.

Here are some of my thoughts:

amateurparent wrote:

Growing up in the LDS church, I still look for a higher standard of integrity and honesty in the local LDS clergy and higher ecclesiastical leaders than in the larger Christian population. (I know .. I need to get over that).

I know those feelings. I have them too. I’m still working on it.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Some stories seem mystical child fairy tales with good intentions to express happy thoughts…I liked them when I was a younger person in the church. I kinda put them away now, because it serves me better to stay grounded in realistic things than fantasy stories, unless I know I’m getting into fantasy land that has limitations to my life, but may be worthwhile to think about symbolically.

It also comes down to credibility. Too many of these stories end up being exaggerated for effect, or hyperbole at church, and it leaves me empty inside. So…empty means it is not for me…and I discard it. If it turns into a Paul H Dunn scenario where credibility is detracting from the message…this guy who chose to lie will pay the consequence. One way or another.

Is it dishonest??

Gerald wrote:

I don’t think for one moment that Elder Stevenson was lying or deliberately misleading anyone. Perhaps if he had known some of those additional details (I have no idea what he did or didn’t know) he might have rephrased his story a bit. But the fact is, we tell all kinds of stories all the time.

I agree with Gerald, it doesn’t feel like it is intent to deceive. It just feels like those telling the stories truly believe it…it is part of their faith. Is it dishonest if they truly believe it, and they aren’t really wrong?

I can sit in a meeting where someone shares an experience like that and they are inspired, while I am not. So I tell myself…it must be for them…because it doesn’t do anything for me. But if they like those stories…knock yourself out.

For every story I hear about the spirit saving someone’s life…I can find 20 where it didn’t.

For every Elizabeth Smart that has a dad praying and fasting to be returned, there are multiples of fathers who never find their daughter alive and don’t want to hear that enough faith saves their child…because that means they didn’t have enough faith…and that burns on top of an already unthinkable tragedy they are carrying.

It is why I stayLDS. I can’t find any proof the church lies or is false. I just find a messy mixed bag that allows me to determine what is useful to me, and what is not. The church is not out to trick people or deceive them, although they are not perfect and slip up with bad judgment at times.

I also am open and remind myself of the positive side…my son on a mission writes me of a story working with an investigator he is teaching, how prayers were answered. I see good things in his faith that the holy spirit is active in the work he is doing. I let him have his spiritual experience. I believe things CAN happen. I am open to it.

But…I believe tsunamis and earthquakes will kill the righteous and the unrighteous alike, and is no respecter of persons. Temples burn down. Things happen. We build stories that try to help us make sense of things in life. We aren’t always that accurate. If people lie about it for spiritual effect…shame on them. I have to be careful I don’t judge others incorrectly without all the facts.

But my opinions are mine. Even if others are allowed to believe what they want about such stories.

I think AP, you are justified in feeling frustration…and even anger. It stirs up feelings from your experience. Things you can work with God about. It is telling you something about your faith and what is important. I don’t think you dismiss those.

But maybe others on this board share their thoughts and that is good to hear too. Doesn’t make me or others right…just other perspectives to consider as you figure out what you believe about these types of stories we hear at church.

I tend to get exhausted by hyperbole and exaggeration at church. Whatever. Others like it.

[Anonymous]

AP,

I teach Gospel Principles sometimes…wanna hear a story someone said in my class when we were talking about the holy ghost?

She said,

Quote:

My daughter usually doesn’t do this, but on the ride home from BYU saw a hitch hiker and felt impressed to pick him up. She was with her room mate and felt safe, having the impression it was a good idea.

They traveled several hours and at one exit let the dirty gentleman out on his exit.

As he got out, he said “I just want you both to know I think you are good people.” He then pulled out a knife and said, “My plan was originally to kill you both. But I just felt I couldn’t, you’re good people.”

Sometimes we don’t realize how the spirit is working to protect us from harm, and what a scary world it is!

:think:

I just moved on in the lesson.

Some people are trying hard to make sense of things in this world.

To me…what makes sense is to not pick up hitchhikers. Then I don’t need the spirit to protect me from things I’ve invited into my car!

(also…I doubt that really happened)

Why do people at church want stories to tell so badly??? Does it help them identify with miraculous stories in the scriptures we read about and want to have in our life?

Also…I expect more from GAs and church leaders than just someone in class…but…I also think they are prone to the same thing not realizing they are doing that. I expect more from GAs…but honestly…not much more. It shouldn’t be that way…but it seems it is.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Why do people at church want stories to tell so badly???

We get to be the center of attention for a little while?

Not that there’s anything wrong with that. People want to be special and want to feel special… and people should get that opportunity.

[Anonymous]

amateurparent wrote:

Such trickster habits are expected when promoting shady loans and business practices. In certain public speaking venues, hyperbole and dramatic license are expected and encouraged. I expect a different and better standard out of ecclesiastical leaders who claim to represent God, who are speaking in an ecclesiastical setting and who are called the Lords Appointed.

Comments state that GC talks should all be read with a grain of salt, an entire shaker, or a salt truck or two. What does that say about the authorities of the entire religion? At what point do we put church authority publications down on the Sci Fi/Fantasy shelf?

Might as well go ahead and put the Gospel Principles manual there. This is pretty much exactly what chapter 31 is talking about.

[Anonymous]

Also, Truth Restored is another one. I read that a few years ago and I was amazed at how the bad parts of our history (things for which we should take responsibility, that went wrong) were omitted. Further, it was laced with faith promoting stories and testimonies of pioneers. One thing that really got me was the explanation that Joseph Smith was finally incarcerated in Nauvoo on a “trumped up charge”. On the PBS.org special on the Mormons, a non-Mormon historian revealed that it was because he ordered the destruction of the Expositor printing press. Actual destruction of property and a charge of disturbing the peace.

At that point I started realizing that there wasn’t nearly as much “truth restored” as the title of the book implied.

And of course, the Mountain Meadows Massacre wasn’t even mentioned. It’s kind of like what goes on at various companies I’ve worked for. You have these employee meetings where they share news affecting the company — acquisitions, reorganizations, downsizings, new programs, but they can’t be nakedly honest with you for fear you’ll jump ship. Even bad financial results are sometimes glossed over. But to get the real scoop on how the company is doing you have to go to the third party sources such as the analysts, editorial opinion, or the actual SEC filings of the financials by business unit if in a conglomerate.

And of course, the oft-quoted idea that “no one is paid” in our church — that it’s a lay ministry. At the local level that is true, but not as you rise higher up, and I’m not sure how far. No one bedgrudges paying people who work full time for the church, but to pass it off as a completely lay ministry isn’t right. And last of all, I grew up believing that a paid ministry (like that local minister of a mainstream religion down the street) is priestcraft — something condemned in the Book of Mormon. Now we have to dance around/qualify what priestcraft means since the Mormons do it too. But for years I was led to believe that priestcraft was the moniker we gave for any person who was not a lay minister. To find we have paid ministers in our church was flooring to me. I was in gospel doctrine a couple years ago, and a really bright lawyer was teaching the class and said “no one is paid”. One of our more liberal members put her hand up and said “NO, that’s not right, GA’s get a living allowance stipend”. The teacher, again, who was really a bright man, said “No, they don’t, no one is paid”. Even he believed it and no one has ever tried to correct this misperception to the point he was promulgating the error to his entire class.

It’s as if remaining silent about the truth is considered “honest” if it promotes faith. That does not sit well with me.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

We build stories that try to help us make sense of things in life.

Yes, and not just through religion. It appears that this drive to build stories and narratives that seem to give order, purpose, and meaning to the world around us is hardwired into our brains.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Heber13 wrote:

We build stories that try to help us make sense of things in life.

Yes, and not just through religion. It appears that this drive to build stories and narratives that seem to give order, purpose, and meaning to the world around us is hardwired into our brains.

I agree. I also think there is an element of bonding with others. We share the experience, and get support…even if the story isn’t 100% accurate. There are limits on credibility with others if stories are too far fetched…but we seem to allow some leeway on people we trust.

My mom used to tell me…

Quote:

Just listen to what I meant to say…not what I said.

She wanted me to not get hung up on details…just understand the gist of what she was saying. We do that in story telling. I’m a buzzkill if I nit-pick her stories for accuracy.

That also has a big impact on how the scriptures were written, I think. They were stories with a purpose.

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