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roobytoos wrote:
I shared my feelings about not liking this song with a ward member. Big mistake. In response she sent me this:
“Gender is important. Here is another quote from LDS.org. “Because Satan “seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27), he and his followers try to lead us away from righteousness. He directs his most strenuous opposition at the most important aspects of Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness….He attempts to undermine the family by confusing gender, promoting sexual relations outside of marriage, ridiculing marriage, and discouraging childbearing by married adults who would otherwise raise children in righteousness.”
Any ideas on how to respond to her appropriately? I want to have a real discussion with her, but with quotes like this I feel overwhelmed and unable to respond.
As much as i would love to think so, it just isn’t true. That you can calmly and rationally talk to a person in paranoia. It won’t work. This is a very subjective subject that historically has no basis in fact. But it’s a view long held from Early Christianity and similar things from before. The point is it’s far from new. Judaism doesn’t even hold that there is a devil as we know it. The Hebrew term means “adversary” which is often used generic term in Hebrew to mean or describe anyone who was an enemy or in an adversarial relationship to the chosen people of god(ha-satan) or evil inclination.
Like wise, you can’t talk anyone out of fear through logic. Mass evidence shows this. Peacefully walk away. You know what is right for you. I do find it interesting that fear if a unknown being dies seem to cause an “evil inclination” in and of itself.
This is not to dispute any belief in satan only to know the origins of fear based belief to solidify staying within a boundary of a set belief. Let the evidence of today be a guide. Millions of co-working families from before even Christ time who’s gender roles where quite different(it is to say that in some societies long before Christ). As well as people in those societies as in now not bringing the so called society families down. But again, logic won’t help. It’s fear and paranoia you are trying to fight and it will only get worse confronting it.
Thank you for the advice. I think it is wise to just walk away. This topic seems to have truly made people defend the status quo. As an interesting observation to this conversation (several people were involved) all of those defending the song/Proclamation to the Family grew up in traditional homes and currently have traditional family structure. All of those that were concerned either grew up in non-traditional settings or are currently living in a non-traditional family. I don’t know that it means anything, I just found it interesting. What Ray said… word for word. roobytoos wrote:Thank you for the advice. I think it is wise to just walk away. This topic seems to have truly made people defend the status quo. As an interesting observation to this conversation (several people were involved) all of those defending the song/Proclamation to the Family grew up in traditional homes and currently have traditional family structure. All of those that were concerned either grew up in non-traditional settings or are currently living in a non-traditional family. I don’t know that it means anything, I just found it interesting.
It means that people will defend what they hold true or dear, either out of devotion or ignorance. Nether is a wrong choice, often it isn’t even a choice, just what must be done to survive. Like many hunter gather tribes where there is no real hierarchy in family or society. Where is is responsible to do a duty regardless of their age, sex. It existed long before modern times with many tribes(just not the limited tribes of the scriptures). Even then it’s not fully supported in the accounts. Likewise people will defend river tradition is the “truth” and the true “tradition” in many cultures and many ways.
Fiddler in the roof is an example, one that many ultra Orthodox Jews often vilify for even questioning tradition.
As an update – we met with the Primary President for a five minute meeting after church on Sunday. One of the things that we discussed was how the song that we are learning reinforces traditional gender roles. As I continued to explain what I meant by that the PP became relieved. She had thought that I might be suggesting something about Same Sex Marriage. I told her that a good portion of the primary kids probably come from families where the mom might work or even in some cases where the dad does the child rearing. I said that the Proclamation uses qualifying language to recognize that family situations may vary and sharing of duties is appropriate. Unfortunately, the song doesn’t make room for any of that.
I recommended that the sharing time person spend some time talking about different family arrangements and how they can be just as acceptable and even more ideal for a particular family.
I reiterated that DW and I are not making any demands – only bringing concerns to her attention.
The PP confirmed that this song is something that is required learning (as opposed to local discretion) but as a working mother herself, she seemed quite agreeable to my suggestions.
Roy wrote:As an update – we met with the Primary President for a five minute meeting after church on Sunday.
One of the things that we discussed was how the song that we are learning reinforces traditional gender roles. As I continued to explain what I meant by that the PP became relieved. She had thought that I might be suggesting something about Same Sex Marriage. I told her that a good portion of the primary kids probably come from families where the mom might work or even in some cases where the dad does the child rearing. I said that the Proclamation uses qualifying language to recognize that family situations may vary and sharing of duties is appropriate. Unfortunately, the song doesn’t make room for any of that.
I recommended that the sharing time person spend some time talking about different family arrangements and how they can be just as acceptable and even more ideal for a particular family.
I reiterated that DW and I are not making any demands – only bringing concerns to her attention.
The PP confirmed that this song is something that is required learning (as opposed to local discretion) but as a working mother herself, she seemed quite agreeable to my suggestions.
Good! I’m glad you reached some sort of middle ground and that the PP listened. I do understand her “fear” of the SSM thing since that seems to be such a hot button issue right now amongst the more orthodox. It is well to point out that there are working mothers, single mothers, and stay at home dads. The church is as diverse in this respect as is the rest of the US – at least outside the Mormon Corridor. In my own family, for instance, I do almost all the cooking at least partly because I’m home earlier. I get gender roles – but who does the cooking has nothing to do with it.
Roy wrote:She had thought that I might be suggesting something about Same Sex Marriage.
Glad you had that talk with the PP. I wanted to comment on this. I think it would be good for primary presidents to understand that they likely have at least one child in their primary who is homosexual, and who doesn’t know it yet.roobytoos wrote:I shared my feelings about not liking this song with a ward member. Big mistake. In response she sent me this:
“Gender is important. Here is another quote from LDS.org. “Because Satan “seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Nephi 2:27), he and his followers try to lead us away from righteousness. He directs his most strenuous opposition at the most important aspects of Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness….He attempts to undermine the family by confusing gender, promoting sexual relations outside of marriage, ridiculing marriage, and discouraging childbearing by married adults who would otherwise raise children in righteousness.”
Any ideas on how to respond to her appropriately? I want to have a real discussion with her, but with quotes like this I feel overwhelmed and unable to respond.
You could say “Well, what do you expect from Satan? He’s a man, after all.”
😆 :clap: Great to hear about the follow-up. Well done!
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