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cwald wrote:
Seriously. We can make all the excuses and apologies we want here – but that doesn’t change the fact that the church just took a huge step backwards.
I have to admit, I too am very concerned. It doesn’t matter how the 15% of us feel, or if we dismiss these talks altogether… because the other 85% are eating it all up as gospel. That has an effect… and not a progressive one.
At dinner at my in-laws last night I heard comments like “Wow… what an absolutely inspired conference… The 14 Fundamentals must have been sooo important for us all to hear that two apostles were inspired to talk on them… Isn’t it nice to get back to the basics!”
Now, to me getting back to the basics means to place our focus on the basic teachings of Christ, not going back to the 1980’s! I am feeling a tad depressed today, but I will get over it. I am really hoping the masses love and respect Uchtdorf enough that maybe it will be his talk that will be studied and quoted over the next six months and not the others.
cwald wrote:Old-Timer wrote:President Packer’s talk was not in line with the actual published stance of the Church itself.
Is that what you are going to say next week when someone in Elder’s/HP Quorum starts quoting from it?
I don’t know about Ray, but I know what I will say. I will say it too if I hear someone quote him and claim that our church will never change.
I will say something like “I respect that Pres. Packer places a high value on consistency and stability in our church, but it isn’t very realistic to claim we will never ever change, at least not based on our short history. We’ve changed policies and let go of theological concepts many times in the past 180 years, even within my short lifetime.”
If questioned, polygamy as a requirement for exaltation and extending the priesthood to all “worthy males” are softball responses to throw out there. Most members know these, even if they aren’t mentioned often.
I really would have no issue saying that in any class, and will. It’s important enough to me.
I feel your frustration Cwald. That will get used by some people as ammunition for their view at some point. But I am pretty comfortable that I am right. Our own history backs me up, even correlated history.
Yes, cwald, it’s what I will say about Pres. Packer’s talk (both about never changing and about homosexuality specifically) – and I have said it already to some members who asked. They agreed, and that was the end of it – but I still would say the same thing (and then explain exactly why and what the Church’s current stance is) in an open meeting. It’s true, and it’s fairly easy to refute – simply by quoting other LIVING apostles. I listened to Elder Packer’s talk and all I could think about was a neighbor and former home teacher that has a gay child and what they must be going through listening to him. Ruined my whole day. Members are Divided on the BKP talk. See link: http://www.sltrib.co…speech.html.csp
This is how I feel today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHV9h7Lgvn8 I was this mom and I know how my son and many gays in the church have been made to feel. I have already gotten many emails on how BKP’s talk has caused terrible pain in families and made gays feel like a freak of nature. BKP reminds me of BY who has said many good things but then says outlandish things. This is why we need to get our own personal revelation as to whether what leaders say is from God.
Here is the church website’s statement on what constitutes “official doctrine.”
Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
Let’s be careful proclaiming that ANYTHING–especially a teaching that has changed so much in the last 20 years is “official doctrine” just because one person said it. Let’s also be careful questioning another member’s faithfulness because of the doctrinal positions they take–even if those positions are at odds with our feelings, or with positions taken by leaders. The church is a big tent, and there is room here for everyone.
Bridget Night
Bridget, Thank you for sharing the link to Bobby’s Prayer. I was very touched and I hope that many of us will echo those words in our own homes and allow them to spread from there.
My heart breaks for youth such as Bobby and I can only hope that they have someone who will say these types of things to them after they have heard Elder Packer speak.
Thank you Canadiangirl. I just bawled my head off when I saw that part of “Prayers for Bobby” again this morning. As some of you might know I am the author of “Prayers for Johnathan” about our gay son’s Journey. The Danish youth I wrote my book with had me read “Prayers for Bobby” before I ever thought of writing our story. I loved most of the book, but I was at a point then (1999) that I still believed most gays could change and that it was caused by brokeness. So, I named my book after that book to show that ‘Prayers for Bobby’ could have a different ending that was in more in keeping with the gospel. Now, 2010 I realize that I am exactly like Mary Griffith was and understand her so much better. My son is so upset over the BKP talk because he worries that other young gays in the church will become self-loathing like he was. Words are so powerful and I just sent my son the “Prayers for Bobby” link and told him how sorry I was for my ignorant words and deeds at that time. It is natural for Christian/lds parents with gay children to hope that change is possible and that their child can live a normal life producing children and grandchildren. What I do know is that the powerful experience I had when trying to find an ending to my book still holds true and that BKP is in error when he says God did not create our gay children. I will cut and paste the ending of my book here:
BRIDGET’S FINAL COMMENTARY
When I first began writing this book I wasn’t sure where it was going to end. Of course, my dream was that my son and Soren would be cured, and participating in the ex-gay marches. I wanted to see them happily married as heterosexuals with children and active in my Christian faith. I wanted to show the pain and suffering from a Christian parents perspective. I also wanted parents to understand where the child, with the same-sex attraction, was coming from. For a year and a half I was obsessed with trying to help Soren and my son understand that homosexuality was wrong and that they should seek reparative therapy. I pointed out all the research and information I could come up with. Sometimes, I thought I was making real progress when I could get Johnathan and Soren to agree with me on certain points, such as the disease factor, the often broken relationship with the same-sex parent, and the many multiple partners problem. I would get frustrated and even angry when I couldn’t get them to want reparative therapy.
On January 13, 2001, after going through more than a year of tremendous suffering myself, I suddenly came to some realizations. I don’t know why it took me so long to see or understand some important truths, but I began to realize what the Savior wanted me to learn. He wanted me to look beyond my own pain; beyond the fact that homosexual sex was wrong. My son, Johnathan, had just “come out” to his friends and admitted that he was gay. That devastated me and I had another one of my panic attacks. I was scared to death that Johnathan would be called terrible names, loose friendships and even be beat up. As I was trying to come to terms with this, the story of the blind man, whom Jesus talked about to his disciples, came to my mind. In Christ’s day, blindness was thought to be caused because a person had sinned. So, when Jesus passed by a blind man, who had been blind since birth, His disciples asked Christ, “Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.”(John 9:1-3) You can’t imagine the peaceful feeling I had at this moment of realization. Yes, it is not good to be blind, retarded, or to have a same-sex attraction, but it is not a sin. Similarly, a person may be predisposed to alcoholism or a bad temper. But, he is not sinning unless he acts upon these inclinations. These people are not awful, or deserving of ridicule because they have any of these conditions. They need love and compassion so much more.
Then I began to think of what happened to many great religious leaders when they “came out” with information they had kept inside of them for a long time. Martin Luther, a religious reformer, could no longer keep it inside that certain religious teachings in his faith were abominable teachings. For this he was persecuted by many in his church. Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet, was persecuted, ridiculed and murdered when he “came out” with his first vision, that God was going to restore the Church of Jesus Christ. But most importantly, when Jesus “came out” at the age of 30, after keeping it inside of him all this time, that “He was indeed, the Son of God, and the Savior of mankind”, he was not only scorned, ridiculed, and tortured, but CRUCIFIED.
Many people in our churches today are fearful of “Coming Out.” Here, the term “coming out,” means admitting or confessing you have a problem and need help. My son, Johnathan, was terrified to “come out” and tell us that he was struggling with a same sex attraction problem because he thought we would kick him out of the house and that the church would condemn him to hell for having these feelings. Believing this, left him with only one option: Reject God and the church! I realize that some people who read this might be offended that I use the term “coming out” in the paragraph above when describing religious leaders, especially Jesus Christ. But, I used the term to imply that no one should be shunned or persecuted for expressing what they sincerely believe in. The blind, the retarded, the smoker, the alcoholic, the adulteress , and the gay person all have problems. They, like all of us, need “The Hospital for the Sick”, the Church. It is my prayer that this book may bring repentance to us all and a new perspective for all of us who claim to follow the “Gospel of Love.”
I truly wish BKP could see the error of some of what he said as I know it has done great harm. The timing was horrible because of the recent gay suicides and also because Brother Marlin Jensen had just tried to smooth things over in California.
Bridget, Thank you for sharing. I actually taught a GD lesson about a month ago when I shared a similar message about Joseph Smith and Jesus. I did not us the phase “coming out”, although the discussion may have been more lively if I had. I said they were “innovators” and did not conform to the status quo. Part of my message was that we all need to always question what we are being told just as they did and seek to understand what God truly wants for us.
I believe that we as men have polluted the gospel of Christ with our own beliefs and prejudices. And the only way to truly become a disciple of Christ is to follow the two great commandments, to love God and to love our fellow man. It has helped me a lot when I don’t agree with what I am being told to remember Romans 13:8 “…but to love one another: for he that loveth another have fulfilled the law.”
Thanks BeHappy, I soo agree. What is the most loving thing to do in the moment is the answer. Bridget: Thank you for the link. I found it so very touching. It breaks my heart knowing my son — and other gay children like Bobby — felt, and continue to feel so much pain and hopelessness because of their sexual orientation.
I am still so very sad about Elder Packer’s talk. We’ve done the reparation therapy thing. We’ve tried to pray our son straight. For years, I was drinking the Kool-Aid of change therapy. As a result, Elder Packer’s remarks seem especially biting and cruel.
I really don’t quite know what to think or do. I feel that it might be the time in my life to stop going to church…at least for a while. As a faithful, active, life-long member, I feel so much terrible conflict. It seems like complete hypocrisy to keep going as if all is well in Zion.
I am not looking forward to church this week, because we have Gospel Doctrine who has been spewing anti-gay rhetoric weekly for some time now, regardless of subject matter. This much I know, if the Christ I read about in the New Testament were to host a banquet, the poor in spirit and rejected of men would all be invited. Not so sure about those in high positions who would reject their fellow beings, on any basis.
Ophelia and Silent Struggle, Thank you so much for your replies. This is site is the only place I can find people in the church who understand what I have gone through. Members so often use leaders words and support of Prop 8 to deamen gays. The church has lost its ground on being compassionate to gays now and will be seen as anti-gay. As well as against femenists and intellectuals. Bridget_night. You’re welcome. This site really gives us the ability to share true feelings in a way that is not possible in a general church context; too much fear of official church and social/cultural censure. It’s kind of a lifeline for me. I’m late to the discussion…good comments all. I find it interesting how different conference can be, between people or between conferences. Last conference had some good talks but over all I was not inspired much. This conference had so many ideas that flooded to me, things I really needed to hear about my family and my relationships. One thing that struck me in Elder Oaks’ talk…did anyone else pick up on how the personal revelation in the home for the family was not limited to men? He also said mothers. I took the meaning as a single mother can receive revelation for the family and does not need to go to a priesthood leader for that. I was glad that was explicitly stated because that makes such sense to me.
canadiangirl wrote:I said to my husband, “why can’t I just go back to being a TBM and sleep through the conference!!!” LOL I laughed when I read what Doug said. But seriously, I use to fall asleep not worrying about what was said, not parsing every word wondering whether I believe it or agree with it. Sometimes that life seems so much easier and yet….
You make a great point canadiangirl.Some people think that doubting and searching is a lack of faith or people aren’t strong enough to keep faith, when actually in many respects it takes much more energy to think for yourself and decide what you really deeply believe in, rather than just accept it all on faith and be lulled into a false sense of security that “All is well in Zion.”
It takes work to go on the personal spiritual journey!
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