Gift of the Holy Ghost

[Anonymous]

Yes, vague terms. A bit more specific is that I had 4 recent unbelievable situations in which LDS people cost me great emotional suffering and financial loss because of their illegal/unethical behavior. Previously I had a stream of other negative experiences but there was always a way to understand, forgive, learn, and move on. But then I had a real estate group of LDS professionals that came in to “help” with my rental protection at the point I was drowning and did not have a clue what to do. But then they ended up in a sense owning my home and a causing a loss of every penny ever painstakingly gathered so that my elderly parent exist. It was done illegally and they also threatened me in a way I cannot describe here. LDS attorneys would not take a case against them. Finally an out of state LDS attorney took the company on and won 13 million dollar case for another client for similar damage. The company has changed their names 10 times or so and recreate the same con and fool the very experts in the field.

Now that I write it, I guess it would have helped me emotionally if the Church authorities had at least said, sorry for your loss, though they hold no responsibility for the events (though if our Church is into excommunication as a remedial response for failing students, these crooks should have been first on the list) If I were younger, if I had family, family that were members, if I had health, if I had support to survive, all of this would be easier. But I guess that might defeat the point. Reality says it is not different.

These bad guys showed up at a culminating moment of my need. My bad, I was so unhealthy that I accepted it without praying for discernment (which used to be my gift). These real estate crooks were not only big in the market, accepted by real estate board (later found out the board knew about the history of cons), they were LDS.

Did I miss the Spirit of protection? Can I forgive them as they continue to eat 5 course meals and I dumpster dive for cans? If I ever came across them in church or worse,the temple. How can I forgive when I was so busy trying to survive on less than 5 hour sleep, working daily (yes) that I could not get a chance to kneel as I walked home from the broken down car.

It is only now that I have a second to work on forgiving. To talk about this to strangers. To care about my soul as well as theirs. The trouble is that my soul is missing in action. I am relying on the strength of memories and miracles of my LDS mission and life experiences.

The greater sin is mine, but now striving for greater faith to remember and to believe, though it seems impossible. Temporary weak testimony, is workable. Dead spirit? Not sure but I am going to try.

Thanks all,

Alexia

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Not sure but I am going to try

Wow, what a messy situation. I once had a friend who told me that a prior business he had got totally screwed and he got taken advantage of by LDS partners. I remember him say, “One guy was even in the bishopric, can you believe that?”. Unfortunately, I can believe it. Your situation is unfortunate.

But I know of your struggle to feel the spirit again. You may need to let go of some black and white views of how the spirit works. My Uncle felt inspired to move to NJ and work with my Dad. Worst financial decision he ever made, almost ruined his family financially. But he became closer to God then ever before, even became Stake Patriarch. Sometimes I think the Lord allows things to happen in our lives so we can learn from the experience. I don’t think He causes bad things for us, but I do believe He allows the free agency of others to impact us. On his hospital bed, my Dad told me, “I’m not mad at God for this cancer, there’s something from all this I’m supposed to learn.” That example will never leave me.

I think there are great learning experiences ahead for you. Look back on the events as a way to learn, despite the hardships, how you can feel happy and love others. Sometimes that takes time. Don’t be hard on yourself. Allow yourself to be angry, but not depressed where you stop doing things. Go slowly, and don’t make big decisions quickly.

Margaret Fairless Barber wrote:

To look backward for a while is to refresh the eye, to restore it, and to render it more fit for its prime function of looking forward.

Elder Richard G. Scott wrote:

It is vitally important to recognize that the Lord also responds a third way to prayer by withholding an answer when the prayer is offered. Why would He do that?

He is our perfect Father. He loves us beyond our capacity to understand. He knows what is best for us. He sees the end from the beginning. He wants us to act to gain needed experience:

When He answers yes, it is to give us confidence.

When He answers no, it is to prevent error.

When He withholds an answer, it is to have us grow through faith in Him, obedience to His commandments, and a willingness to act on truth. We are expected to assume accountability by acting on a decision that is consistent with His teachings without prior confirmation. We are not to sit passively waiting or to murmur because the Lord has not spoken. We are to act.

I like that your last statement was you will not give up trying. That determination and faith may be your best asset. I believe it will serve you well over time. I hope my thoughts are helpful.

[Anonymous]

Your thoughts are very helpful. Meanwhile, the situation is much messier than a blog can handle. We all get screwed sometime. But one hopes to get a chance to take a breath until the next pounding.

So do you consider your uncle truly inspired? Or just that he made the best out of a bad reading of the spirit? If negative experiences are all for our good leading to things we needed to learn, then I must have been in the crash course, or concentrated camp of remedial spirits. As I said before, up until now, my past suffering seems to have resulted in positive. But this is like no other. By the way I also had cancer, a lung removed, and feel that I was blessed to survive, so just reframing that memory helps.

I can’t quite look back yet, as you recommend, because I am still in it. But I feel some hope that I will look back. Or perhaps not look back so that I don’t turn into a pillar of sand! I am going slowly but that has its consequence as well.

Meanwhile I’m sure I have murmured. I do try not to do it in front of those it may harm. I so loved the passion of giving strength to others rather than sucking them dry of their own testimony. I don’t believe I have to express great anger, I would like to reframe this somehow.

Searching for light and positive attitude during construction zone (of my dead soul). Just want to know that indeed this temple can be rebuilt. Others may be consoled with the fact they have family and a life. I really only had the love of truth and comfort of living by the spirit. Everyone was family and now I am not so sure. But, here I am.

To be sad is not depressing unless there is no hope of being full of joy somewhere, sometime. Still working on it.

Thank you

Alexia

[Anonymous]

Good response, Alexia. First of all, I hope my message to you wasn’t: “Don’t worry, be happy.” Some things in life suck, and that is the way it is, you can’t just get a positive mental attitude and it all goes away. So I hope I didn’t imply that. I’m sure your feelings are completely valid, and your tests sound beyond anything I’ve had to deal with, which makes me think you must be a strong person.

since you asked:

Quote:

“So do you consider your uncle truly inspired? Or just that he made the best out of a bad reading of the spirit?

I do not know for sure, because it was not me. I have asked him and I don’t know if I believe him but he is convinced it was inspiration because the Lord could care less if we lose money or have lots of it, God wants us to develop and grow stronger and happier. My uncle says it was the best thing for their family, but I think it took him 10 years to say that. While going through it, we can’t really make the assessment, which is what it sounded like you are saying about not yet being able to look back yet.

I do believe the Spirit will touch our spirits from time to time (not always, not constantly). I don’t believe the Lord pushes us towards a traumatic event or gives us cancer just so we can learn. There are enough learning experiences we all will become in contact to naturally just by being in this world, that I don’t think He specifically needs to do anything to let us have learning experiences.

No, I don’t think the Lord is involved or the spirit is involved nearly as much as we like to believe as Mormons sometimes. Just my opinion. I continue to pray to God and ask for His help and inspiration. But what used to work for me in the past (make sure I’m true-blue and do all my home teaching) no longer works for me, and I am challenged to look at things in a whole new way. It has strengthened my faith in God, helped me let go of some things in the church (many self-imposed fears and doubts), and find other things in life (nature, buddhism, poetry, exercise…) that have value to me that I never would have sought out if I wasn’t shaken to the core and forced to seek new things. I’m still on my journey and haven’t finished it yet, just found a way to be peaceful today, and more hopeful of tomorrow, regardless of yesterday.

I thought your statement was very telling:

Quote:

As I said before, up until now, my past suffering seems to have resulted in positive. But this is like no other.

If this is like no other…then that must mean something in your path of growth.

Albert Einstein wrote:

The significant problems we face cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.

[Anonymous]

Alexia,

It is pretty apparent to me that this messy situation has a great impact on your spirituality. Obviously there are many issues to work through, and it is not going to be a quick, painless, or easy solution. I think it is just something you need to slog through. (I wish I had a better answer.) Anyway, I think my roller coaster analogy is very appropriate. You are in a big low right now. If these people were not LDS, I suspect it still have affected your spirituality. The LDS parts stings just a little more, but not everybody LDS is ethical. Sad, but true.

[Anonymous]

“If these people were not LDS, I suspect it still have affected your spirituality” I agree to slight degree , I think it would have depressed me and challenged my spirit but I do not think I would have lost it all. The LDS rip-offs in the past “stung” but this one was different. Perhaps with the other LDS people that screwed me, I could say Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Maybe they were desperate, naive, ignorant, out of touch, one was from another country so I thought he may not understand the Church yet(don’t judge that) . But this evil group, These guys did not bat an eye to see a single disabled person, with widowed mother, out on the streets, and begging for them to do the right thing. In fact their behavior and aura was far beyond unethical.

Do you really believe that a mere “Low” is like this? Again, if it is, please tell me about someone that lost all strong and seasoned believe and had it return.

Just curious, I know it is slow process but, it seems some Bible and Book Mormon stories somewhere give examples of heavenly intervention that gave more immediate response. Keep in mind that this ordeal has been going on for near three years.

Thanks for your time and thoughts

Alexia

[Anonymous]

YES, there is hope of spiritual rebirth. That is the goal of this part of life! All humans are spiritually dead until they are spiritually reborn.

I don’t believe you are as far gone as you think you are. You appear to have the tools for spiritual rebirth (open heart, conrite spirit). You are working on the cr@p you are dealing with. Keep going.

And please let your bishop know if you need assistance for food or shelter (bills). That is what he is there for. It sounds like you are working (what a blessing!) but don’t hesitate to reach out for help. I know how hard it is.

[Anonymous]

When I was on my mission, I was at a spiritual low. To that point in my life, I had always been the type of guy who always followed the rules. I strictly followed mission rules, yet I did not baptize. Many other missionaries didn’t follow the rules, and had a lot of success in baptizing people. I did not baptize anyone for probably the first 16 months of my mission, which was quite unusual. (My MTC companion had about a half dozen baptisms within his first 6 months.) It really bothered me, because we’ve so often been told that if we follow the commandments, we will be blessed. I can even remember a time where I fasted about 6 times in 14 days. I made goal to find someone to baptize within 25 days, and the goal passed without anyone even close. To put it bluntly, I felt let down by the Lord, and was greatly disillusioned. It was the lowest point of my mission.

Another missionary pointed out the following scripture from the Book of Mormon, Alma 27:26,

Quote:

Now when our hearts were depressed, and we were about to turn back, behold, the Lord comforted us, and said: Go amongst thy brethren, the Lamanites, and bear with patience thine afflictions, and I will give unto you success.

I never knew the word “depressed” was in the scriptures. This chapter in Alma relates the success of Ammon and his brothers. While we all know how successful he was, we usually don’t realize how difficult his mission was at the beginning. It says Ammon was depressed, and was still supposed to exercise patience. When a person is depressed, the last thing they want to do is exercise patience–we feel like we’re drowning, and need a life rope.

My mission president told me to exercise patience, and I would be blessed. It was the last thing I wanted to hear. As bummed out as I was, I really felt like I had to fight to exercise faith, and it was a struggle. But just as Ammon was blessed, so was I. I have a strong testimony of that scripture. I also have a testimony of Alma 17:3,

Quote:

But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God.

I don’t know about you, but the spirit of prophecy, revelation, power, and authority of God is quite appealing (especially on a mission.) While I didn’t get the success in the time frame I wanted, with patience, it came, and I was blessed immensely.

I hope that helps. It may not be exactly the story you were looking for, but it is a powerful witness to me in my life.

[Anonymous]

(Answering both Heretic and Just me),

Heretic, that story is a helpful one. Maybe you first mission was preparing for “this one”. Please know that I say that w/out the typical Mormon habit of placating or rationalizing. I believe that many missionaries are in service of preparation, and hopefully others will benefit from it as well.

I love the fact you point out scriptures re: “our hearts were depressed” and they were about to “turn back”. I have wondered what I would turn back too (I think John Dehlin mentions those that lose testimony of Church often lose belief in all, including God). Psychologically I have always admired the story of Sodom and not turning back, to turn to salt, or not turning back as a dog does to it’s vomit. But, on the other hand one MUST turn back if on the wrong path. That is my quandary.

I never want to talk myself into believing the Emperor is wearing clothes if truth is that he is absolutely nude. The only hope that I have that I may not be forcing something that isn’t, is because I know myself as a skeptic, and for me to have ever believed in the gospel in the first place, and with the subsequent spiritual experiences makes me want to give this a chance, to see IF I am only in a spiritual coma. You know with all the quantum manifestation stuff, it is thought that one paints and creates what they WANT to believe.?!?

It seems in your story you were low and discouraged but did you completely lose belief? I ask because I have felt like the prodigal daughter in the past, after return from sin or omission of good,but this time it feels as if there is no Father/family to go back to (forgive me).

And yes, the spirit of prophecy, revelation, power, and authority of God is quite appealing. Appealing enough to want it to be real and then patience makes sense. (unless you plant a rock, and expect it to grow)

Just Me, “All humans are spiritually dead”. But after birth they can die again? Be reborn again?

And re:Bishop storehouse, etc. We have talked about that, and who knows, but how strange to admit to a bishop that you no longer believe, (though you attend wanting to believe) but want financial help? ooooh

By the way all, I was reviewing research about prayer having significant measurable impact, even when the subject is not aware of the praying group. When three of you are together,… Kind of puts the single member, with unbelieving relatives at a disadvantage unless he/she can find a group to pray with zeal as they would for their own family member.

In a way, I have found the three here.

So grateful

Alexia

[Anonymous]

Praying for your now, Alexia. (((hugs)))

Do you have hope that there is a Father? Hope is the first step. Plant that hope in your heart. Pray about it, for it. Ponder and meditate about this hope. Watch it grow. Imagine it growing inside you like a beautiful flower. As it grows and matures you can move towards belief and faith. Pray to feel the Holy Ghost or spiritual feelings.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

2 Nephi 31:20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

I think having hope does not mean you *know* anything. It is admitting that you don’t know anything, but you HOPE anyway! Even without any proof at all.

I believe “endure to the end” really means to stay on your journey, keep repenting, keep learning, keep trying.

The Light of Christ is within you. Nothing can take that away! You must seek to uncover it.

You are a spiritual being having an earthly experience. Find your light.

1 Cor. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Your search is an inner one. The Spirit is not as far as you think. God loves you so much. I can feel it in your behalf. I wish I could send it through the Internet into your heart.

Re: Bishop help-The Church has come out with a new emphisis on helping those with temporal needs. We had a leadership meeting that every stake should be getting and it was pretty clear that we are to do everything we can to help. They even have printed an addition to the Church Handbook of Instructions about Spiritual and Temporal Welfare. It is not predicated on a testimony or payment of tithing. If a bishop demands those before giving help he is not following the guidlines I have.

One last scripture:

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

[Anonymous]

“Just me”, that was very soft touch response which is refreshing after a hard days’ life at times. Thank you.

I am following the advice, meanwhile do not let me discourage you by my next point.

I read comments on another blog that describe my concern.

Basically, there is a circular logic present here, which will reinforce the pre-existing beliefs of the individual, regardless of what happens. While I realize that logic has its limits, especially when dealing with matters of faith, still there is a problem here.

To give an example from an LDS perspective: if you have a non-member friend who is praying to know if their Church is “true,” and they do not receive an affirmative response, you might then suggest to this person that this means that they need to question the truthfulness of their Church. But if they were praying if the LDS Church was true, and no affirmative response was received, you would be inclined to interpret this as God’s requiring more time, faith, and effort in order to receive a response.

The same conundrum can be seen with prayer – if one prays for some specific matter, if events unfold in such a way as to suggest that the prayer was “answered” then one’s faith is confirmed. If events unfold differently, then either one had insufficient faith, more time is needed, or God had other plans. In either case, one’s faith is reinforced, regardless of what happens.

At what point does not receiving an answer justify you in questioning the entire matter, whether it be if a given Church is “true”, whether or not God answers prayers, or if God even exists? If it’s a non-member praying about their Church, we would suggest that waiting further will not change anything, and that they have already received their answer. But if it’s an investigator praying about our Church, or God’s existence, we would see this very differently, and advise them to wait longer until the “trial of their faith” is over.

Does anybody else find this overall approach to truth, faith and belief troubling?”

That blog kind of sums up the fact I appreciate lessons of faith, hope and patience, as long as I am not planting a rock and expecting it to grow. Or if I am merely stuck in the brain trap of rationalizing prior beliefs. I hope Father exists, knows and loves me. If the Church is the best place for me to develop at this time so be it. But I don’t want to be the nun that sacrificed the “wrong” things for God, even if it does not harm her reward. If it is full of the best truth available at this time, let me shout it from the roof tops. But prefer to make acceptable sacrifices.

Thanks for prayers that I believe have impact.

Alexia

[Anonymous]

In response to your question,

Quote:

It seems in your story you were low and discouraged but did you completely lose belief? I ask because I have felt like the prodigal daughter in the past, after return from sin or omission of good,but this time it feels as if there is no Father/family to go back to (forgive me).

You’re right that I didn’t completely lose belief, but I don’t think it would have taken much more at that time to lose it. I was really starting to wonder if keeping the commandments/mission rules mattered. I remember being called as a district leader, and wondering why. I thought a district leader was supposed to show other missionaries how to baptize, and it was obvious to me I had no idea. My companion jokingly asked me if he should wear a pink tie. I responded, “I don’t care.” (I still don’t see anything wrong with it, but his previous companion would have gotten quite upset apparently.) I was feeling quite numb, and it didn’t seem to me that God cared about me. Perhaps he cared about others, but it didn’t appear that he cared about me. So, while our situations are not exactly the same, I see some strong similarities.

Alexia, you’ve been reading MM, haven’t you? I saw that post about Alma 32 too. I’m sure Andrew (the author of that post), might apply the same analysis to my story about Alma 27 and Alma 17, and say my logic was circular. Andrew is a good man, but an atheist, so just keep that in mind as you read his posts. He is naturally skeptical about spiritual things. I can be and you can be as well, and I don’t view skepticism as inherently bad either.

What is so hard for me is understanding why God seems to answer certain people and not others. I have no answer for that. Sometimes people go through all the steps of Alma 32 and don’t get the answer. I do not understand why, but I don’t deny that their experiences are just as valid as mine. The best answer that I can come up with is found in D&C 46.

Quote:

11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.

12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

…

17 And again, verily I say unto you, to some is given, by the Spirit of God, the word of wisdom.

18 To another is given the word of knowledge, that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge.

19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;

20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.

21 And again, to some is given the working of miracles;

22 And to others it is given to prophesy;

Some of these sound like strange gifts–the gift to teach, the gift to believe, the gift to heal, the gift to be healed…. I encourage you to read that section. I think it is excellent.

I’ve decided that I might have the gift to teach. (It’s something I really enjoy.) But I don’t have the gift to feel the spirit strongly. I don’t have the gift to prophesy. Sometimes I want these gifts, but “To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.” I guess I have to be content with the gifts I have been given. I have heard so many stories where people “feel” they were led to knock on a door, give food to someone, or some other miraculous feeling. I can say that whenever I have felt these impressions, the people look at me like I’m crazy, so I don’t trust the feelings. It is not my gift. But I do have other gifts, and I try to use those as much as I can.

[Anonymous]

Alexia, I will admit that I have the gift of “feeling the Spirit” and inspiration (even if its in my mind it is my reality). So, although I have questioned literally EVERY belief I have during my journey, I only questioned the reality of God for about 2 days. I won’t pretend to know what you are going through.

I do see your conundrum.

Maybe we can start with this.

Do you believe in love? We can’t see love, only the manifestation of love. But, we know it exists.

I’m sure you have had moments where you question love with all that you have been through.

Find ways to show love towards others. Look for acts of love in others.

Basically, all the stuff I wrote in the pp could be applied to love.

Would it be easier to focus on love than God/Spirit?

To argue circular logic I would say:

We could easily think that everyone around us loves us and the world is full of love. Go outside and all creation will prove you are right.

One could easily think this is a world of hate a chaos. Go outside (or watch the news) and all creation will prove you right.

They will both find opposite truth in this world. Of course they are both right and choose what to focus on. I guess I would prefer to live in a reality of love even if it is all in my mind. I think that our minds can create our reality.

If this is life and there is no more beyond this than I would argue that LOVE is all that matters. Since God is love, if this is just the beginning of life eternal than I would still argue that LOVE is all that matters.

Anyway, this is rambly and I hope it makes sense. I’ll only add that I find truth wherever I can find it-not in a single church institution.

[Anonymous]

Letting go of what has been done to you and releasing it to God or the Lord will certainly help you to feel the spirit again. It is hard, but the spirit will intercede and help you. See Romans 8:26-28. Remember that Christ died for all, even the sins of those who have used or taken advantage of you. I had to release an abusive bishop to the Lord it can be done, it did not mean that I would ever trust the man, but that I had done my part so I could heal and get rid of the pain. I also spoke to my SP about it and we got permission to change wards. Releasing this man to the Lord helped me clean my heart because I wanted it clean from bitterness, it was a beautiful transforming time for me –cleansing my heart. The man never apologized to me personally, but he did tell the SP that he had done wrong. I knew the whole situation was then between them and the Lord, and it really helped. Pain still popped up from time to time, and fear even, and not being able to trust ever again. One thing that I am learning to do more often in my life but by no means have perfected this, is to trust God by the idea that I can do this-

“ . . . take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.”

(2 Corinthians 10:5)

Try to think of yourself handcuffing intruding thoughts that trigger fears and taking them to the Lord. Together then you and the Lord can interrogate them, asking two questions.

*Where did you come from? (What is the source of the fear? Is it real or imagined?)

*Where are you going? (Will this thought draw me near to God or into fear?)

Finally, ask yourself, Can I do anything about this or should I turn it over to God? He will most likely want you to trust Him and leave it in His care so you can have some peace, at least that is what I get from this verse:

Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. Isaiah 26:3.

http://www.fathersloveletter.com/video1.html

This might help as well and I encourage you to immerse yourself in the Word, perhaps by marking all the scriptures in this text version as a start. http://www.fathersloveletter.com/text.html

Hope this helps in some way.

LW

[Anonymous]

“Letting go of what has been done to you” That has been my effort, to let go though it is still happening to me. At least I feel the strength to talk about it. I have asked the Lord to help me to feel the spirit again. Not a sign but not complete darkness.If He exists I will get His help, if not I must do it on my own. But there really is no such thing as on our own.

In counseling, we use a method of bringing our mind to the ability of accepting an abusive client, such as a pedophile, by looking at their baby photo. This helps to see the person in their pure,innocent state. Making it possible to work with a person that has committed an unthinkable act. Believe me I want to forgive these unrepentant group that destroyed me. They have not repented or acknowledged wrong doing. Well I hear that the brother of the main scam artist did. Though he was not one that I was directly hit by, it helped to know that someone felt something. I can’t bare to think that they will continue to do this to others.

Wow, the Bishop thing is a harsh case. Changing wards, but if/when you see him in temple does your mind revert back to former negative images? I love your handcuffing description of handling triggers of fear etc. “ . . . take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” ? It is similar to what I did once out of “Emotional Emergency Room in my mind”. Part of my obstacle was that I was blaming God so did not trust Him.

I kept think, if it was just me I could handle this, but my anti-mormon mother who I care for, this is fuel for her demise. Isn’t there another way to test my faith? Is this a mere..life happens?

Alexia

[Author]

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