Gift of the Holy Ghost

[Anonymous]

Alexia wrote:

The next response was interesting. Some people don’t notice or experience the Holy Ghost outside of psychological phenomenon. That is my field but I would love to hear from someone in the field familiar with those mechanisms and still believes that there is something that speaks to us, outside of us. The new age “Secret” and manifesting intention has so many of the positive thinking and reframing concepts that has been used for ages in psychology. But some of the quantum theories allude, not to magic but what one might consider mind control over the elements. So we are back to the biblical duel between power of God and whatever the magicians were doing.

Did I bring all of this evil upon myself psychologically, spiritually, incidentally?

I’m not sure if you were referring to me here. I think so. If this is your field, I’d like to learn from you about it. I am very much an amateur. My education is in electrical engineering, so I’m no expert in psychology by any means.

One question I have is, why does there have to be something “outside of us” speaking to us? Is it not acceptable, or palatable, or otherwise okay just to have it be us, just us? Is it not possible that some people are simply better at coming up with ideas, feeling peace, etc.? And with regard to your question at the end, what evil did you bring upon yourself? If you are referring to your initial post, couldn’t it just be the emotional turmoil you are undergoing in your spiritual journey? I am more inclined to believe we don’t understand all the nuances that go on in the emotional, cognitive, and primordial portions of our brains, than to attribute these things to an outside force. Please enlighten me!!

[Anonymous]

No, there does not HAVE to be something outside of us. I hesitate to bring this up, but in my field religious ideas often have a negative stigma, or a knee jerk categorization as mentally unhealthy. A renown psychologist Albert Ellis has a reputation of instilling the concept that people that are religious are essentially mentally ill. Can you imagine what it is like to read the Bible that focuses on those that hear external voices, even one that tells Abraham to kill his son, when you have been trained to see that as a dysfunction of the brain? Or to suppose that there is a difference between one prophet and another, from a variety of churches or beliefs, such as Joseph Smith, Joan of Arc, Ellen White, etc. One is dysfunctional, one is of the devil, one is wrong, one is right? For me to have believed, it had to be something quite convincing.

And then, at a more common level, people find themselves creating their world by thought patterns and “sealing” or anchoring that into a regenerating belief system via emotions. So it is that a skeptic asks is this truth or desire? is this spirit or emotion? is this the Holy Ghost or self-talk according to our perceptions? (So when I lose the spirit, I revert to ask myself if it was all “mind work” in the first place)

My question is if people aware of brain/mind function, still believe in the Holy Ghost, or God for that matter, how do they make sense of it. A God could work without the Holy Ghost being external, yet in the Church we are told that it is personage (though it may have a force of delegated communication, “angels”, etc)

The new age “Secret” and manifesting intention has so many of the positive thinking and reframing concepts that has been used for ages in psychology. But some of the quantum theories allude, not to magic but what one might consider mind control over the elements. So we are back to the biblical duel between power of God and whatever the magicians were doing.

I am asking for those that feel that there is/was something beyond what the mind creates, I want to hear from you. I want to make sense of what happened and learn from mistakes.

I am the one that needs enlightenment

Alexia

[Anonymous]

For those that do not read all prior posts on this topic I thought I better add the fact that I did feel the Holy Ghost strongly in the past, and still believe, or want to believe, that it was above and beyond the psychological explanations of thought processing. On the other hand, if I fell to mere creation of thought and sensation, I would focus my efforts differently in the future.

Alexia

[Anonymous]

Alexia wrote:

No, there does not HAVE to be something outside of us. I hesitate to bring this up, but in my field religious ideas often have a negative stigma, or a knee jerk categorization as mentally unhealthy.

No need to hesitate, I’m anxious to hear.

Alexia wrote:

A renown psychologist Albert Ellis has a reputation of instilling the concept that people that are religious are essentially mentally ill.

Well, I certainly wouldn’t go that far.

Alexia wrote:

Can you imagine what it is like to read the Bible that focuses on those that hear external voices, even one that tells Abraham to kill his son, when you have been trained to see that as a dysfunction of the brain? Or to suppose that there is a difference between one prophet and another, from a variety of churches or beliefs, such as Joseph Smith, Joan of Arc, Ellen White, etc. One is dysfunctional, one is of the devil, one is wrong, one is right?

Indeed, I have the same conundrum in my mind. I certainly wouldn’t take my son to the altar no matter who told me. And if it happened in my psyche I would definitely dismiss it immediately. Maybe that makes me unresponsive to the Spirit, but I value my child’s life more than my “revelations.”

Alexia wrote:

For me to have believed, it had to be something quite convincing.

I think I see where you’re going now.

Alexia wrote:

And then, at a more common level, people find themselves creating their world by thought patterns and “sealing” or anchoring that into a regenerating belief system via emotions. So it is that a skeptic asks is this truth or desire? is this spirit or emotion? is this the Holy Ghost or self-talk according to our perceptions? (So when I lose the spirit, I revert to ask myself if it was all “mind work” in the first place)

For me, from the little psychology I know of, I have chalked most of my experiences to “mind work.” To me this doesn’t mean they don’t have value, I just had to shift my perception of the value they have in my life.

Alexia wrote:

My question is if people aware of brain/mind function, still believe in the Holy Ghost, or God for that matter, how do they make sense of it. A God could work without the Holy Ghost being external, yet in the Church we are told that it is personage (though it may have a force of delegated communication, “angels”, etc)

I have no idea as long as one continues to insist on external realities. For me, the way I have resolved the issue is to assign most of these things to internal metaphors that I can learn from. I don’t believe that Joseph actually saw (with his natural eyes) an angel, or God, or Jesus. I don’t believe that he actually saw anything in the peepstone in the hat. I don’t believe that Joseph was actually communicating (with his mouth, in an external sense) with Moses, Elias, Elijah, angels, God, or Jesus. If anything, I would say he possibly had some form of sleep paralysis (possibly in an awake state as well) that led him to be convinced they were external realities. I don’t think Joseph was an outright charlatan. I just don’t accept that. Therefore, I believe he truly believed what he was doing was right, he was just taking too literally his own psychological experiences.

For me, having said this doesn’t make his teachings less important in a metaphorical way. The idea of us as being gods in embryo is extremely powerful. So is the idea of the Celestial Kingdom and families forever. Are those literal, physical external realities? I dunno, I can’t prove it or disprove it, but I don’t put a lot of stock in it. For me, Joseph Campbell’s work has been very influential. If you haven’t read “The Power of Myth” I highly recommend it. Although it might not help you much if you want to be an orthodox believer again. If you are interested in reconciling the dissonance in your mind, however, I think it would help.

For my own personal revelation, I take the same approach (although I’ve never had a Joseph-esque experience). My “revelation” comes in the form of ideas, love, spiritual experiences, love, profound thoughts, and love. They are for me, and I extend my ideas to my family (and you dear readers on the forum) for their edification (or not). I do not declare them to be absolute Truth, or even as valuable to anyone but me.

Alexia wrote:

I am asking for those that feel that there is/was something beyond what the mind creates, I want to hear from you. I want to make sense of what happened and learn from mistakes.

Well, it’s clear then that you don’t need to hear from me. I was a TBM my whole life up until about a year ago. When I started looking into psychology I started questioning my own experiences. I realized there was a lot of natural things at play in my mind that I always chalked up to supernatural realities.

[Anonymous]

I DO believe in something outside of what our mind creates, I firmly believe in the spirit or the HG. When I have a moment of doubt, I am prone to question sometimes as I am only human, and we humans do that as we often have trouble fully trusting God as we don’t have the whole picture. However, according to scripture, Romans 8:26-28, the Spirit of God not only maintains a hope within us that things will work out because we love God, but that He helps us in our present limitations. Paul does not say the Holy Spirit removes our weaknesses, but that He “helps” us. The Holy Spirit comes along side as our Helper and gives us wisdom and strength. He “intercedes” for us with groans that words cannot express” (v. 26). He comes to our aid for access to the Father (Eph. 2:18).The wonderful thing is His intercessions for us are always in harmony with God’s will as the spirit is part of the Godhead.

In the actual Greek, it was written in, Jesus called the Holy Spirit Parakletos, another Greek word that means “one who is called alongside of another” to help in time of need. Jesus’ primary language was Aramaic, but scholars believe he most probably spoke Hebrew, and quite possibly knew Greek also. The apostle Paul uses another word, sunantilambanetai, that denotes a person coming alongside another to take part of a heavy load to help him bear it. The emphasis Paul is making is this is a divine work. We do not know what to pray for in the midst of our suffering the heavy load, so He gets up under it with us and bears it along. He identifies with us in our weakness.

We often do not know how or what to pray for in difficult moments, but He does because He knows us intimately and He knows perfectly the will of God, and our weaknesses. We do not have the whole picture. We see only the hurt, pain, suffering, etc. The Holy Spirit comes to our help and makes intercession. I have had this experience and more than once. I know that sometimes I get the actual words to say in my prayers from the spirit or say to my children when parenting. Like our my will and God’s will align up for a moment. It is rare, but it has happened. I really like Isaiah 65:24, He can answer while we are yet speaking.

In fact, we have two divine intercessors: Jesus Christ is at the right hand of our Father in heaven interceding on our behalf (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 7:25; 1 Jn. 2:1), and the Holy Spirit in our hearts is also interceding (Jn. 14:16, 17). The Spirit Himself “intercedes,” pleads on our behalf. Picture the rescue of someone who “happens on” a person who is in trouble and “in his behalf” pleads with “sighs that baffle words.” The spirit meet us where we are at and sustains us through the labor pains so to speak. Because they are the intercessions of the Holy Spirit, they are acceptable to the Father, such sighs or groans are perfectly intelligent to Him. That is a comforting thought to me, as those sigh and groans are often from our mouths.

Back to the original passage, God the Father searches the hearts of us saints. The mind of the Spirit Himself makes interpretation for the saints according to the will of God (v.27). We do not know what the will of God is, but the Spirit does.

[Anonymous]

By the way, I don’t agree with Ellis’ over generalization. Again, my aim is to get closer to the truth and so I remain aware of the psychological elements of belief systems. And yes I am very familiar with Campbell’s work on the Power of Myth. There are many interesting books on Why People Believe Strange Things, etc. But I could also write a book on why people don’t believe or why people can’t see that many of the non-religious logical beliefs are actually myths.

I do not consider myself orthodox or conventional but I do believe that accurate knowledge (obedience) eventually lends itself to increased freedom and exploration of broader truth. I thought I was on that road once. (Note:Emphasis is not obedience to culture or habits of a people)

Church leaders have told us that there are different “revelations” and some are not positive. That is at the core of my current search. For me to have believed in the gospel, in the power of the Holy Ghost, it had to be something extremely convincing. But now what?

JMB wrote:

“For me, from the little psychology I know of, I have chalked most of my experiences to “mind work.” To me this doesn’t mean they don’t have value, I just had to shift my perception of the value they have in my life”.

I agree that “mind work” is not bad, in and of itself. Our bodies were set up to do this and obviously the results can have great value. Some current theories suggest that this is the meaning/purpose of life to create your own experience (life movie). Interestingly, I would not have trouble with some version of that being true within the gospel.

Re: internal metaphors, JMB wrote: “I don’t believe that Joseph actually saw (with his natural eyes) an angel, or God, or Jesus. I don’t believe that he actually saw anything in the peepstone in the hat. I don’t believe that Joseph was actually communicating (with his mouth, in an external sense) with Moses, Elias, Elijah, angels, God, or Jesus. If anything, I would say he possibly had some form of sleep paralysis (possibly in an awake state as well) that led him to be convinced they were external realities. I don’t think Joseph was an outright charlatan. I just don’t accept that. Therefore, I believe he truly believed what he was doing was right, he was just taking too literally his own psychological experiences. “

That could be true but I certainly don’t want to be closed to the idea that some of this could have been a physical reality that is not understood. An isolated tribe in Peruvian jungles may misunderstand an I-Phone, or might think they hear internal voices or external spirits when a modern explorers megaphone presented into their awareness for the first time. A psychologist not knowing about the explorer may immediately assume the native is superstitious, or mentally ill. (what a fun mind trip)

If “revelation” comes in the form of ideas, love, spiritual experiences(forgot to ask what that means to you), love, and profound thoughts, which I am sure that it does… what does it matter. Is love the only power?

Lady W believes in something outside of what our mind creates, and a firm belief in the spirit or the HG. “When I have a moment of doubt, I am prone to question sometimes as I am only human, and we humans do that as we often have trouble fully trusting God ” And then I ask, where did your belief come from?

There are many beautiful scripture verses. How do you know which, if any, are real? Eg. A prophet being upset with children for making fun of him and then have them eaten by She Bears? (Be Assured I love the scriptures)

I have felt that alignment with the will of God before that you refer to. And years of that kind of response, even with life’s troubles can be joyful. Yet, Making no comparison with the Holy, what might a period of feeling that God has forsaken you as did Jesus on the Christ mean to you? (Thanks for the song)

We are healing as we speak

Alexia

[Anonymous]

Alexia wrote:

I do not consider myself orthodox or conventional but I do believe that accurate knowledge (obedience) eventually lends itself to increased freedom and exploration of broader truth. I thought I was on that road once. (Note:Emphasis is not obedience to culture or habits of a people)

This whole topic is close to my heart. My own experience and feeling my prayers weren’t answered has started me on my new journey, which this forum has helped me express my ideas and learn from others as I’ve gone through it.

I have many of the same questions you do, Alexia.

But my studies and my learning seem to bring me back to the church and God. But I feel I’m different and it brings me back in a new and refreshed way.

I cannot deny the powerful spiritual experiences I had in my youth, on my mission, and since as my family has grown. Could those manifestations been all drummed up in my own head? I don’t think so because I didn’t know how the Holy Ghost feels until I felt it. I don’t believe I was brain washed to know the Holy Ghost will make you feel this way, so I want to feel this way, so I make myself feel this way. I still believe it is an outside, external force that inspires us from time to time.

Ok, that was my prior stage in life and my prior relationship with God and the church. Why then, when I had a family crisis, did I feel my prayers weren’t answered and I was so desperately seeking that peace? Why was I “inspired” to make certain critical decisions that turned out horribly? Why can I not feel so inspired now when I feel I need it like I was able to feel that way when I was 19?

My current belief is that faith is required to know these things. Faith has many levels, and I need to truly understand faith now more than ever. I think I was pretty complacent in how I got answers and how to rely on the Spirit. I had less faith because I had more knowledge of how the Spirit was working in my life. In order for my next stage of growth, things needed to radically change for me. Not that God makes bad things happen, just that He “let” them happen to me and what was the result? I have been forced to stretch my spiritual muscles and seek new ways to be enlightened. I know most of the things the BOM can tell me about finding peace…but what about Power of Myth, what about buddhism, what about Thomas Jefferson, what about de Tocqueville? These are great words of wisdom that help me see things in a new light…there is new growth…there is greater enlightenment. I’m grateful God loves me enough to help me experience these.

I have been forced to shed my child-like experience with God in the mormon church, and now see how many other complex and beautiful and fulfilling sources can enrich my life and make me grow. This is my new stage in life as a mormon…looking outside the church to find the beauties of the world and let my mormon beliefs grow beyond where they were before. I believe the spirit is guiding me in this journey to find the wisdom of other philosophies and religions. I believe if is bringing me back to the mormon church with a deeper understanding of mormon doctrine.

In summary, I think we are challenged by a loving Father to take steps of growth when we are ready. Even JMB275s enlightened beliefs can be manifestations of the spirit, if they lead to love and peace and happiness. I think all good comes from God, and we don’t need to narrow that channel to just the Holy Ghost whispering in my ear. Sometimes, the beauty of the earth already has the wind to blow in my ear and make me feel alive.

I think you are on a similar journey, Alexia. By asking the questions you are asking, and seeking answers, you can grow. Apply your knowledge from your profession, because some great thinkers have come up with good things to learn from, and then place those pieces into your framework of your religion and God based on your prior experience and see how powerful that can be to you.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Heber,

You say “But my studies and my learning seem to bring me back to the church and God. But I feel I’m different and it brings me back in a new and refreshed way.”

I appreciate that comment. One would ask is it human nature to return to the teachings of their parents, or early experiences? Or is it more? You see as a convert, I attended and studied many religions, and in psychology I attended and studied the variety of theories secular waves of relating to the world. Perhaps that is part of why I felt so desperate after this trauma and loss of the Holy Ghost (or so it feels) because I am convinced that the Church has so much on target in spiritual and psychological realms. Attending other churches is nostalgic, spiritual, and good but if LDS Church is empty, so much more are the others (Not be insulting, just lack of better description of my thoughts)

You say you didn’t know how the Holy Ghost feels until you felt it, but then again, you were taught how to label it once you felt something. (I have an ongoing debate in my mind as I research my world) But I do believe you, as I measure up the Holy Ghost against all taught beliefs secular and religious. Oh that interesting word “brainwash”…such a fine line between encroaching on someone’s self-determination and just plain good teaching. You see some of us had to have our brains washed of self harming habits, self-defeating behaviors, etc. Music, testimonials, love, metaphors, visuals, reinforcement…that is how learning is anchored in our minds. I don’t know if you read my earlier posts but years back a friend had the renown Rick Ross attempt to de-program me. He did not understand that he was using the same psychology that he criticized. Just for a different outcome. still believe it is an outside, external force that inspires us from time to time.

I feel for your family crisis and your feeling “inspired” that backfired. Is that because the inspiration was self induced? or not fine tuned in your action? or giving results that you needed? I am thinking of Nephi getting the plates…inspired but some disaster ensued. Not sure about yours, but my disaster seems harder than I can bear. Was yours? At least you have the Holy Ghost but you’ve graduated to a different phase of it’s use?

You have a forced spiritual muscle, does it ever feel like an amputation? By the way, I hope you regain all your strength and more. I appreciate the fact that you are looking outside the church to find the beauties of the world and let my mormon beliefs grow beyond where they were before. My question is do you feel luke warm in your testimony now? Some have suggested a luke warm USE of their Church membership. I hope I don’t come across as all or nothing thinking, but is this God’s plan? and just a part of the meat since we are past milk stage?

I find your final statement thought provoking. “I think all good comes from God, and we don’t need to narrow that channel to just the Holy Ghost whispering in my ear. Sometimes, the beauty of the earth already has the wind to blow in my ear and make me feel alive.” I certainly have not spent enough time enjoying the beauty!! Yet it seems that we are entering a time in the earth in which the Holy Ghost will be critical.

Application of my psychology helped me to process the PTSD, but it is the radiance of the absolute eternal truth and light that

I need now. Someone said Be Still and Know God”.

Your shared thoughts have been helpful

Alexia

[Anonymous]

Alexia wrote:

That could be true but I certainly don’t want to be closed to the idea that some of this could have been a physical reality that is not understood. An isolated tribe in Peruvian jungles may misunderstand an I-Phone, or might think they hear internal voices or external spirits when a modern explorers megaphone presented into their awareness for the first time. A psychologist not knowing about the explorer may immediately assume the native is superstitious, or mentally ill. (what a fun mind trip)

Yes, I agree with you here. I would never say with 100% certainty that Joseph didn’t have those experiences, or that they weren’t physical realities. It just seems more likely to me that they were internal. Of course there is always the proverbial “Black Swan.” It just seems to me, based on the numerous similar claims using similar methods by various religious leaders, UFO abductees, witch hunters, mystics, psychics, etc. that they are not reliable. That’s what it all boils down to for me. Was Joseph reliable? Are the current prophets reliable? Is the Mormon church reliable? Are my own spiritual experiences, and thoughts reliable in helping me determine truth and/or what I should do. In some things, yes. The church for instance was reliable in helping me lead a life free of drugs, teen fatherhood, etc. But it also was not reliable in some ways. It wasn’t forthright with me about history, various doctrines, etc. My own thoughts are similar. Is there truth in them? Maybe, but I am conscious of checking them against the cognitive portions of my brain, whereas before “revelation” trumped all.

Alexia wrote:

If “revelation” comes in the form of ideas, love, spiritual experiences(forgot to ask what that means to you), love, and profound thoughts, which I am sure that it does… what does it matter. Is love the only power?

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here. I don’t know if love is the only power, but I think it is probably more powerful than we give credit (that is in influencing the lives of others). If I had to summarize Christ’s life it would be “unconditional love.” I believe in God (at some level, similar to what Einstein believed) and believe that there is some “thing” we all have in common. I like Joseph Campbell’s ideas that the thing that transcends the physical, that we all keep mulling over (the common hero story, creation story, etc.), is what we call God.

I will try to read through all the comments. I think I could learn a lot from what is being said in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Alexia wrote:

I feel for your family crisis and your feeling “inspired” that backfired. Is that because the inspiration was self induced? or not fine tuned in your action? or giving results that you needed? I am thinking of Nephi getting the plates…inspired but some disaster ensued. Not sure about yours, but my disaster seems harder than I can bear. Was yours? At least you have the Holy Ghost but you’ve graduated to a different phase of it’s use?

These are tough questions for me to wrestle with. Thanks for asking. I need to go through this exercise of answering them to myself…so I’ll try. I’ll break this down to 2 posts because of the length.

Was it self-induced? I think in part it was. At a major crisis, I felt my family was being taken from me for no consequence of my agency. I felt I was entitled to help on how to deal with it. I didn’t feel a lot of direction or inspiration, which scared me. So I tried to work out what I thought was best and present to God in prayer my solution and ask for an answer that this was the right thing to do. No answer. So I moved ahead in faith I would be told to stop if it was wrong. Things got worse. Yes, I felt this was beyond what I could bear and acknowledged that before God in prayer. Nothing. I made a lot of mistakes, I said wrong things, I did wrong things, I had regrets, and I wondered why I wasn’t guided to avoid the mistakes I made. So overall, I was trying to talk myself into the idea that since I didn’t feel an answer specifically saying, “No, dont do things that way” then even without a strong inspiration I know it is right, I should proceed until I felt it was wrong. So I think it was self-induced by me not knowing how to handle the non-answer. I still don’t know what to make of that.

I felt so conflicted from having what I felt were clear answers in the past on things like job moves that worked out so well for our family but now when I needed direction most for the sake of my family (more important than a job), I was not able to get it. Now that I am at a more peaceful place, and can look back on it, I think there was a part of me that was in panic mode, and not patiently and faithfully and calmly seeking out God’s will, but expecting something on my terms because I thought it was a crisis. Kind of like I was saying, “Father, please take this cup from me” but failing to do as Jesus did and complete the phrase, “nevertheless, thy will be done.” I expected I would be spared because of my faith that this is why I live the gospel, for protection in time of need, and I’ve never needed it more so than now.

I still believe I have clearly received answers in the past from the Holy Ghost. I just am not sure why this time I didn’t, except to say that it has put me on a path where I was forced to crack the TBM shell and take a peek outside that world and into many new things that are wonderful and beautiful. Perhaps the reason I didn’t ge any answer was that things were out of my control, and I needed to stop trying to control my world, and instead seek godly things that bring me peace despite the storm.

I guess it comes down to my expectations of the Holy Ghost weren’t met. Do you think I read the signs wrong, or missed the answer that was before me? Is your experience anything like mine?

[Anonymous]

Alexia wrote:

You have a forced spiritual muscle, does it ever feel like an amputation? By the way, I hope you regain all your strength and more. I appreciate the fact that you are looking outside the church to find the beauties of the world and let my mormon beliefs grow beyond where they were before. My question is do you feel luke warm in your testimony now? Some have suggested a luke warm USE of their Church membership. I hope I don’t come across as all or nothing thinking, but is this God’s plan? and just a part of the meat since we are past milk stage?

My experience shook me to the core, I began doubting everything…allowing me to doubt every thing without any guilt. I wouldn’t describe it as an amputation, as that would seem like something was cut off and lost or separated from me. More like a new set of glasses that made me realize I haven’t been seeing some things for a while, and just hadn’t realized my vision was blurred…and just got a wake up call.

I hope I can regain all my strength. I have felt much stronger the past 3 weeks, but I waiver some still and am not as strong as I used to be. But almost feel like I’m strengthening different muscles I haven’t used in a long time. I was too reliant on specific mormon doctrine muscles, and neglected some others that I am now building up to balance my TBM muscles with greater strength, not replacing them or amputating them, just balancing them.

Do I feel luke warm in my testimony now? I did for a while, because I doubted so much I used to “know” – and so everything was bland and I was apethetic. But because I have found new light, I feel stronger in my faith towards God, towards Jesus Christ, towards the principles of love and service. I am less concerned with home teaching others, and more concerned with Family Home Evening with my family. Less concerned with my daughter attending seminary, and more concerned with taking her on dates to reaffirm to her my love for her and how proud I am of her. Less concerned with volunteering to help clean the chapel, and more concerned with visiting a Young Man in the ward who hasn’t been to church in 4 months. I feel I’m luke warm to the organizational programs of the church and less concerned about following the flock around and not losing step with other righteous families, and instead more alive in Christ’s teachings of love and hope and what is good for me and my family today, especially the beauties of nature (I eat cereal on my deck and watch the sun rise above the mountains and see evidence of God in His creations).

Is that God’s plan, you ask? Yes, for me I believe this is His plan for Heber. I believe He wants me to grow beyond the life I was living and let go of my pride. I believe He allowed events to take place that were terribly depressing to me because I needed to let go of trying to control my environment, and instead get in tune with the flow of life, not control it to my will. I believe the Spirit is making itself manifest in my life in new ways that enrich my life. I don’t think I’ll ever hold another leadership calling in the church, although I’ve held almost everyone one at the ward level, and multiple at the stake level. I will see what the future holds, but if I never become heavily involved in ward social circles again, so be it. I believe there is more in this life that I am supposed to learn to value. So I will keep learning, and keep seeking the Spirit. I believe it is real and I don’t give up hope it can still be in my life to make me feel whole.

I will let go of prior feelings of guilt, resentment, and anger towards God for not answering my prayers, and look forward to a new path and learn new ways the Spirit can guide me then the narrow minded expectations I used to have.

I think I was able to accept this when one morning when I read this Maori proverb: “Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you.” I broke down in tears. It impacted me far greater than the Book of Mormon scriptures I was desparately searching through to find peace. That was when I realized the Spirit was talking to me differently, and I need to listen differently.

Do you think in your experience there is a new way the Spirit will speak to your spirit, differently then before?

[Anonymous]

Heber, sorry to be cheesy, but that really touched me. The whole thing. Very honest, sincere and healthy. Ahh, life… what would you do without it? (Rhetorical)

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Do I feel luke warm in my testimony now? I did for a while, because I doubted so much I used to “know” – and so everything was bland and I was apethetic. But because I have found new light, I feel stronger in my faith towards God, towards Jesus Christ, towards the principles of love and service. I am less concerned with home teaching others, and more concerned with Family Home Evening with my family. Less concerned with my daughter attending seminary, and more concerned with taking her on dates to reaffirm to her my love for her and how proud I am of her. Less concerned with volunteering to help clean the chapel, and more concerned with visiting a Young Man in the ward who hasn’t been to church in 4 months. I feel I’m luke warm to the organizational programs of the church and less concerned about following the flock around and not losing step with other righteous families, and instead more alive in Christ’s teachings of love and hope and what is good for me and my family today, especially the beauties of nature (I eat cereal on my deck and watch the sun rise above the mountains and see evidence of God in His creations).

Is that God’s plan, you ask? Yes, for me I believe this is His plan for Heber. I believe He wants me to grow beyond the life I was living and let go of my pride. I believe He allowed events to take place that were terribly depressing to me because I needed to let go of trying to control my environment, and instead get in tune with the flow of life, not control it to my will. I believe the Spirit is making itself manifest in my life in new ways that enrich my life. I don’t think I’ll ever hold another leadership calling in the church, although I’ve held almost everyone one at the ward level, and multiple at the stake level. I will see what the future holds, but if I never become heavily involved in ward social circles again, so be it. I believe there is more in this life that I am supposed to learn to value. So I will keep learning, and keep seeking the Spirit. I believe it is real and I don’t give up hope it can still be in my life to make me feel whole.

I will let go of prior feelings of guilt, resentment, and anger towards God for not answering my prayers, and look forward to a new path and learn new ways the Spirit can guide me then the narrow minded expectations I used to have.

I think I was able to accept this when one morning when I read this Maori proverb: “Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you.” I broke down in tears. It impacted me far greater than the Book of Mormon scriptures I was desparately searching through to find peace. That was when I realized the Spirit was talking to me differently, and I need to listen differently.

Heber this is the most beautiful thing I’ve heard you say on this forum. Very touching. No matter the differences in beliefs we have amongst ourselves on this forum, I am convinced that in practice this is the thing we all agree on – namely, the Teachings of Christ in practice!! When I read these kinds of posts I am satisfied that the theological questions, eschatology, Joseph Smith, the church, and Truth questions don’t really matter to me. The practical application is God’s plan for jmb275 just as you’ve said. Thank you for reminding me on a day I needed to be reminded.

[Anonymous]

Beautiful! And to add to the cheesy please see skit on God link, perhaps to lighten the weight in pursuit of knowledge

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=849dc7c803281df74bb2&utm_source=newsletter0618&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weeklytopvideos

Alexia

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Do I feel luke warm in my testimony now? I did for a while, because I doubted so much I used to “know” – and so everything was bland and I was apethetic. But because I have found new light, I feel stronger in my faith towards God, towards Jesus Christ, towards the principles of love and service. I am less concerned with home teaching others, and more concerned with Family Home Evening with my family. Less concerned with my daughter attending seminary, and more concerned with taking her on dates to reaffirm to her my love for her and how proud I am of her. Less concerned with volunteering to help clean the chapel, and more concerned with visiting a Young Man in the ward who hasn’t been to church in 4 months. I feel I’m luke warm to the organizational programs of the church and less concerned about following the flock around and not losing step with other righteous families, and instead more alive in Christ’s teachings of love and hope and what is good for me and my family today, especially the beauties of nature (I eat cereal on my deck and watch the sun rise above the mountains and see evidence of God in His creations).

Is that God’s plan, you ask? Yes, for me I believe this is His plan for Heber. I believe He wants me to grow beyond the life I was living and let go of my pride. I believe He allowed events to take place that were terribly depressing to me because I needed to let go of trying to control my environment, and instead get in tune with the flow of life, not control it to my will. I believe the Spirit is making itself manifest in my life in new ways that enrich my life. I don’t think I’ll ever hold another leadership calling in the church, although I’ve held almost everyone one at the ward level, and multiple at the stake level. I will see what the future holds, but if I never become heavily involved in ward social circles again, so be it. I believe there is more in this life that I am supposed to learn to value. So I will keep learning, and keep seeking the Spirit. I believe it is real and I don’t give up hope it can still be in my life to make me feel whole.

I will let go of prior feelings of guilt, resentment, and anger towards God for not answering my prayers, and look forward to a new path and learn new ways the Spirit can guide me then the narrow minded expectations I used to have.

I think I was able to accept this when one morning when I read this Maori proverb: “Turn your face to the sun and the shadows fall behind you.” I broke down in tears. It impacted me far greater than the Book of Mormon scriptures I was desparately searching through to find peace. That was when I realized the Spirit was talking to me differently, and I need to listen differently.

I LOVE this Heber. Thank you so much for this. You have done much to suppress my cynical side. Thank you.

[Author]

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