Giving a child permission to leave

[Anonymous]

I would love to get some collective wisdom on a tricky issue. I welcome suggestions, thoughts, stories, or whatever else occurs to you.

I have a teenage daughter who is either lesbian or bisexual. Currently, the evidence points at her being mostly or almost exclusively physically attracted to women, and possibly attracted emotionally to men and women equally. My wife and I have told her that we think she’s a wonderful person, that we love her no matter what, and that she’ll always be wanted and needed in our family.

I think this is one of the reasons I’ve been so driven to study the ways in which the Church is capable of unintentional harm. I can tell that growing up in the Church has both helped and hurt her. I’ve needed to understand how the hurt comes about so I can protect her. I know I can’t protect her from everything, but when it comes to my little darlings, I’m a papa bear.

In the Church, there are only two moral options for LGB members: try to make a mixed-orientation marriage work in the face of reduced physical or emotional intimacy and a 2x to 3x divorce rate, or remain celibate. The Church doesn’t recognize a third option as moral, which is to leave. In fact, as soon as you consider it, the doctrine of eternal families, which ideally keeps families happy and strong here and now, feels like a weapon. No believer wants to stare down the barrel of tearing an eternal family apart. Few unbelievers want to turn it against their loved ones.

My wife and I have decided to give her explicit permission to leave if she needs to. We’ll also tell her that we’ll accept whomever she forms a family with as an essential part of our family, regardless of gender. The idea is to give her another option for finding happiness if she needs it, and to use our family bonds here and now to de-weaponize doctrine should it ever feel like a weapon. (We probably won’t give her the latter reason, though.) Moreover, we want to let her know now that leaving is a moral option, because if she chooses to leave on her own in the future, it’ll be after wading through so much pain and sorrow that it breaks my heart to imagine it.

Mrs. Reuben will be having the actual conversation with her within a week. She’s a brave, brave, amazing woman.

EDIT: Mrs. Reuben reads this forum, so feel free to address her directly.

EDIT 2: Softened rhetoric on weaponized doctrine, due to On Own Now’s comment below. (Thanks, OON!)

[Anonymous]

My first question is: how old is your daughter? There is a big difference how I would handle the situation depending if she were 13 or 19.

My assumption is she is older.

I like your approach to the issue:

Quote:

My wife and I have decided to give her explicit permission to leave if she needs to. We’ll also tell her that we’ll accept whomever she forms a family with as an essential part of our family, regardless of gender. The idea is to give her another option for finding happiness if she needs it, and to use our family bonds here and now to de-weaponize doctrine should it become a weapon. (We probably won’t give her the latter reason, though.) Moreover, we want to let her know now that leaving is a moral option, because if she chooses to leave on her own in the future, it’ll be after wading through so much pain and sorrow that it breaks my heart to imagine it.

I would encourage you to talk to her about how you feel. Especially your last sentence. I have (3) adult children. All of them left the church. (Not for the same reason.)

They are married, raising children of their own. They are very moral independent people. I believe that was and remains God’s design.

[Anonymous]

Minyan Man wrote:

My first question is: how old is your daughter? There is a big difference how I would handle the situation depending if she were 13 or 19.

My assumption is she is older.

That’s a very good point. She turns 17 early this year, and is emotionally mature and quite self-aware compared to her peers. For example, two years ago, she would identify when she felt unreasonably rebellious, and would try to correct for it. (She definitely didn’t get that from me!) I think she’s matured physically at an average rate.

If I understand correctly, most people her age have enough evidence to figure out the physical part of their sexual orientation, but maybe not the emotional or other parts or to what extent their sexual orientation is fixed. I’m always happy to be disabused of false ideas, though.

[Anonymous]

Reuben (and Mrs. Reuben),

I can try to add a few thoughts, but I always caveat this with a disclaimer that I only have my own reference point, so I can only talk about how I would approach this conversation with one of my own children. Since I am an individual with specific experiences, hopes, dreams, moral values and each of my children is a separate individual with all these aspects on their own, then my thoughts are pretty unique to our situation; apply to yours as you see fit.

– First on sexuality. If a woman is bisexual and marries another woman, does her bisexual orientation make it OK for her to have sex with men while married to a woman? I would say ‘no’ because I believe in marital fidelity. So, if we reverse it and she does marry a man, then it stands to reason that she could remain with only him. So, if she’s truly attracted to both genders, then that’s one way to proceed and to follow a life that is more in-line with the rest of society. Even though the Church lags sorely behind the secular world-view in this regard, I believe it is still and will remain a burden for same-sex couples for the long-haul, if for no other reason than that they can’t produce natural children in their marriage. Before anyone gets up-in-arms that I’m saying she should deny her attraction to women, let me just say this: I am a heterosexual… so… in theory, I am attracted to all women. Yet, I fell in love with only one, married her, and live a happy, fulfilled and committed life with her. I’ve already decided that if anything happens to her, I can’t imagine ever marrying anyone else… even though I am heterosexual. Too often, we use the term ‘bisexual’ to connote an idea that “I want to have sex with everyone I meet” and ‘homosexual’ to mean “I want to have sex with every other homosexual man/woman I meet”, yet that’s not the way that heterosexuality works, so I don’t know why we approach these other orientations in that way.

– The previous paragraph may be a bit controversial and I considered taking it out. But it is the crux of what I’m about to say, which I think is more important. That is that (if I were talking to my own daughter), I would say, date who you want to, eventually fall in love with someone and get married. But don’t let your decision be driven by either conformity to societal expectations (marry a man) or to counter-conformity (marry a woman). Instead, I would try to instill in her the self-confidence to choose whomever you want to love and commit to that life no matter who (or which gender) that person is. If a man, then stay committed to him in love without continual second-guessing if you did it because of society, and if a woman, make sure you are not doing it as a protest against anyone/anything. The far more important aspect in all this is that the person you love is a good person that loves you in return and that the two of you make a wonderful marriage together.

– My advice to my own daughter regarding the Church would be that whether she marries a man or a woman, live the life you want to live and don’t let the Church control it. The LDS Church and any other church is 100% voluntary, but we ourselves try to assume for some reason that the Church has a stranglehold on our relationship with the spiritual. I would just try to help my child understand that faith/spirituality belongs to the individual and the Church is just a framework. It’s a good framework that works fabulously well for most, but not as well for others, and can be downright destructive for some. IMO, it’s not the Church’s fault. It’s just that the Church (and all religious institutions throughout time) comprises a community of like-minded people fully engaged in a belief system and culture that fosters communal conformity. For those who don’t fit the mold, challenges abound. Reuben, in your post, you talked about the concept of eternal families being a weapon. I suggest being careful with that line of thought, both for yourself and your daughter. It may feel like a weapon to the not-all-in, but it isn’t intended that way. Personally, I think eternal marriage is the A-Number-One article of faith of the Church and I wish with all my heart that it were true. Saying it is a weapon is a bit like saying the sun is a weapon. Sure it gives life to the earth, but it can also make you hot in mid-day, give you a sunburn and even cause cancer. The Church is a positive force that gives (spiritual) life to most of its members, but can burn those who are not careful. I would much prefer to talk about personal responsibility not to get burned than to treat the sun/Church as a negative force. If my daughter falls in love with another woman and marries, I’d encourage her to find faith that works for her, in or out of the Church. If the Church excommunicates her, it doesn’t change her standing with spirituality. I look at my own life and I don’t really know that being an official member of the Church or being a non (or excommunicated) member would be any different. I don’t hold a calling. I go to Church when I want. I don’t pray or give talks in Church. I have friends there who know and love me in spite of my non-belief and non-conformity. I don’t call them out, and they don’t call me to repentance. I love the NT, yet I believe there is no God. I am comfortable enough in my own skin that I don’t have to apologize or avoid anyone. I’d want my daughter to have that same self-assured-ness. IMO, each person on the earth will live a more fulfilled life if they find what they can believe in (non-believer-Christianity for me) and follow it as their belief-system. The Church is one of those “Way”s. But it’s not the only one, and even with in the Church individual adaptation is the norm, rather than the exception. Adapt for your own purposes. Too many people (IMO) simply float through life with no anchor. Find the anchor that works and stay true to it.

[Anonymous]

OON, everything you wrote was absolutely insightful and helpful. But this:

On Own Now wrote:

Reuben, in your post, you talked about the concept of eternal families being a weapon. I suggest being careful with that line of thought, both for yourself and your daughter. It may feel like a weapon to the not-all-in, but it isn’t intended that way. Personally, I think eternal marriage is the A-Number-One article of faith of the Church and I wish with all my heart that it were true. Saying it is a weapon is a bit like saying the sun is a weapon.

Thank you for the correction.

I really like your alternative analogy. If eternal families comes up with our daughter, I might use it.

The doctrine of eternal families does feel like a weapon to some, and too many people use it like a weapon against their own flesh, usually out of fear. I suppose I could reframe one of our objectives this way: to ensure that she doesn’t think of it that way, and that she knows we won’t, either.

[Anonymous]

Minyan Man wrote:

I have (3) adult children. All of them left the church. (Not for the same reason.)

They are married, raising children of their own. They are very moral independent people. I believe that was and remains God’s design.

I waffled a bit about whether to ask for more details, but you’ve piqued my interest. If you don’t mind, why do you believe it’s God’s design?

[Anonymous]

I can’t add to what OON has said.

Reuben wrote:

The doctrine of eternal families does feel like a weapon to some, and too many families use it like a weapon against their own flesh, usually out of fear.

It’s strange how that works, isn’t it? Family pushes family away, maybe out of fear that they will not be an eternal family if a certain behavior continues and threatening to end a relationship is used as a weapon to get people to change the behavior before it’s too late. Meanwhile they’ve broken their family up in the present. This life is a part of eternal life, if you want an eternal family in the afterlife what will it take to be a family right now? The only thing holding us back from an eternal family is ourselves.

Reuben, it sounds like you already have an extremely good plan. I try to regularly show my children that family comes before church. It’s not even a contest, and hopefully they know it.

[Anonymous]

Some good advice. I assume you are already aware of “mom’s dragons” (and they have a “daddy dragons” group also)

[Anonymous]

Thanks, nibbler.

LookingHard wrote:

Some good advice. I assume you are already aware of “mom’s dragons” (and they have a “daddy dragons” group also)

I don’t think Mrs. Reuben would be comfortable being a fire-spitting Mama Dragon, but she might be a really good Mama Eagle.

(Reference: https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/09/my-life-as-a-mama-dragon/)

Didn’t know about the Daddy Dragons.

[Anonymous]

Reuben wrote:

Minyan Man wrote:

I have (3) adult children. All of them left the church. (Not for the same reason.)

They are married, raising children of their own. They are very moral independent people. I believe that was and remains God’s design.

I waffled a bit about whether to ask for more details, but you’ve piqued my interest. If you don’t mind, why do you believe it’s God’s design?

It is my belief that we came to this earth to make our own choices in life. That was God’s plan. Some of our choices maybe good, some are bad, some are in between.

It is also my belief that we have 2nd chances in life. (Sometimes more.) That’s why we take the sacrament on Sunday.

We know very little about what happens in the next life. I do believe that all of us are connected either through DNA or adoption.

Because someone leaves the church, it doesn’t necessarily mean that our connection with each other is gone. We have a lot to learn about the next life.

Our purpose today is to deal with what happens here for now.

I hope I’m clean. If it isn’t ask me again. (Never waffle.)

[Anonymous]

There is another consideration that I should of mentioned. I don’t have a lot of family in the church. There is no social stigma.

My FIL & MIL are gone. Even if alive, they would not of been judgemental about my children not being in the church.

Even during my inactivity, they were very supportive.

If I were in SLC & both sides of the family were active & participating, it would be a different story.

Whatever happens, take some comfort in knowing that you are doing your best raising your daughter to be a loving & compassionate person.

I’m convinced that God doesn’t expect more than that.

[Anonymous]

On Own Now wrote:

Too often, we use the term ‘bisexual’ to connote an idea that “I want to have sex with everyone I meet” and ‘homosexual’ to mean “I want to have sex with every other homosexual man/woman I meet”, yet that’s not the way that heterosexuality works, so I don’t know why we approach these other orientations in that way.

We (bisexuals) don’t. Obviously I can’t speak for everyone, but all the LGBT+ communities I’ve participated in do not consider being queer to be an excuse for (or to even be related to) having rampant sex or being unfaithful. The idea that bisexuals are unfaithful and like group orgies is a false stereotype. We wish other people would consider our orientations to be like how heterosexuality works, but unfortunately a large number of heterosexuals refuse to see it that way.

Regarding the OP:

Christ taught that we can know doctrine by trying it out. That by the fruits various teachings bear as we live them, we are able to tell the good from the bad. And Lehi taught that there is opposition in all things, that evil comes along with good things. As with all other sources of teachings, the Church has both a good and a bad influence on my life. And whether or not the good outweighs the bad, and what I should do about it, is a decision that rests solely between me and God. For me personally, that answer isn’t anywhere near clear cut, and it will likely change at different parts of my life. But other people’s experiences are all different; we seek out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

One of the things I feel the Church teaches poorly, and which can be a barrier to meaningful personal revelation, is the difference between fear/guilt and actual sin. Church culture has a fear of many things, which is then taken as a sign that that thing is sinful. Clothing norms, women working, both romantic AND sexual feelings, etc are all things where I’ve seen church members confuse their fear of something with sin, and it’s important to be able to tell apart your own fears from a “no”-type answer to prayer. Especially when there is conflict between Church teachings and your own happiness/what God has planned for you. I suspect this is part of why so many ex-mormons leave the church with such a bang and as atheists.

Strangely, the things I love so much about the Church: the eternal family, being a literal child of God and the focus on human flourishing, the temple’s focus on building Zion, and the covenants I’ve made; these don’t actually bind me to the Church. They will be a core part of my spiritual identity whether or not I leave in the end. My covenants aren’t with the Church, but with God. Our relationship doesn’t have an intermediary.

Sorry for the rambling, hopefully it’s somewhat relevant to what you plan to talk to your daughter about.

[Anonymous]

ydeve wrote:

On Own Now wrote:

Too often, we use the term ‘bisexual’ to connote an idea that “I want to have sex with everyone I meet” and ‘homosexual’ to mean “I want to have sex with every other homosexual man/woman I meet”, yet that’s not the way that heterosexuality works, so I don’t know why we approach these other orientations in that way.

We (bisexuals) don’t. Obviously I can’t speak for everyone, but all the LGBT+ communities I’ve participated in do not consider being queer to be an excuse for (or to even be related to) having rampant sex or being unfaithful. The idea that bisexuals are unfaithful and like group orgies is a false stereotype. We wish other people would consider our orientations to be like how heterosexuality works, but unfortunately a large number of heterosexuals refuse to see it that way.

Yes, thank you ydeve… and just to be clear, that is what I was trying to say, that as a society we have a strange perception that fidelity/promiscuity exist on a different scale for non-heterosexuals compared to heterosexuals, and I don’t know why that is. I appreciate your confirmation.

[Anonymous]

ydeve wrote:

Sorry for the rambling, hopefully it’s somewhat relevant to what you plan to talk to your daughter about.

It’s relevant and helpful. I was hoping you would offer your thoughts, and I wasn’t disappointed. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Reuben wrote:

In fact, as soon as you consider it, the doctrine of eternal families, which ideally keeps families happy and strong here and now, feels like a weapon. No believer wants to stare down the barrel of tearing an eternal family apart. Few unbelievers want to turn it against their loved ones.

My catalyst for my FC was the stillbirth of our third child (Emory). This shook me in many ways. One thing that shook me was that I discovered that the church does not recognize stillborn children as living souls or as members of eternal family units (maybe they are, maybe they are not – we just do not have any doctrine either way).

In regards to my stillborn daughter I am in much the same position as many non-members. I feel a bond with my child and believe that the relationship will continue in the afterlife even though my church does not necessarily teach that it will. I made a determination that my daughter is part of our eternal family because I say that she is.

I teach my children that our family is eternal and point to the temple as the physical representation of that yearning. My teaching on this topic is so lightly different than the orthodox that at the present time (my children are 11 and 9) the difference may be imperceptible. For example, GBH said, “The temple stands as a monument for all to see. It stands as a statement that we as a people believe in the immortality of the human soul. …. It speaks of the importance of the individual as a child of God. It speaks of the importance of the family as a creation of the Almighty. It speaks of the eternity of the marriage relationship.” At some point I may need to make it more clear that I lean on the temple more as a symbol of eternal families rather than the source of eternal families.

I believe that God is with you in the Love that you and Mrs. Reuben have for your daughter.

Just my $0.02.

[Author]

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