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The topic of the holocaust comes up regularly in my home. It has me wondering about the mercy of God. God knew the holocaust was happening, and that the Nazis were causing unimaginable suffering and death on an industrial scale among innocent people. Yet God allowed this to go on for years and years. Someone mentioned that Stalin was just as bad as Hitler, with his gulags claiming the lives of millions.
Do you ever wonder how God, as a just God, can allow such things to go on for years and years, affecting millions of otherwise ordinary and innocent people? To me it doesn’t score any points for God as a just God who cares about his people. I can understand him allowing suffering on an individual scale due to health and naturally occuring problems, but such wilful extermination of entire generations — I find hard to swallow.
SilentDawning wrote:
Do you ever wonder how God, as a just God, can allow such things to go on for years and years, affecting millions of otherwise ordinary and innocent people? To me it doesn’t score any points for God as a just God who cares about his people.
To my way of thinking, it becomes an accountability problem (even though its also known as the problem of evil).
OPTIONS:
A) There isn’t a God there to be Held Accountable.
There may be a God who is so much bigger than us, they can’t be held accountable by our rules.C) There may be a God who is so disconnected form us, they are distant from the situation and can’t be held accountable by our rules.
D) There may be a God who is playing a longer game, all this pain will be justified in the end and all accountability transactions completed.
E) God doesn’t have the power to completely intervene due to agency and being God.
F) Pain and Suffering is part of the process of Life and Death and Life cycles. Hopefully, your life will be better next time around.
G) People deserve punishment for something (even babies and kids are used as token placeholders for the perceived sins of the parents).
PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS:
For me, it stung for a long time why my expectation that God would “be with me” in my human experience and why “God stopped answering my prayers” was not very answerable by doctrine. I had figured out that I need communication accommodations – I need words (lots of words, word transitions, word bridges, words everywhere!) and when I expected more words from God because I was ready to listen – I got less words/no words.
– I felt that it wasn’t a “me” thing. I was ready to talk (literally) and to change.
– I had to grapple with the best explanation that a) God didn’t exist (so I’d been talking to myself all along) or b) God didn’t want to talk to me in a way that I understood (which was counter to the First Vision and Mormon Theology), or that c) God had reason(s) I didn’t understand to impose the cosmic silence. I alternate between extending “Acceptance” and “Anger” at God for the situation while living my life (without God that I know of) and waiting for more information.
The good news when specifically discussing the Holocaust is that 1) it was stopped by the allies and that 2) it is near universally condemned as pure evil and remembered as a cautionary tale of the inhumanity that humans are capable of. One could make the narrative that God inspired good people to rise up and stop the Holocaust.
Roy wrote:
The good news when specifically discussing the Holocaust is that 1) it was stopped by the allies and that 2) it is near universally condemned as pure evil and remembered as a cautionary tale of the inhumanity that humans are capable of.One could make the narrative that God inspired good people to rise up and stop the Holocaust.
But why not sooner? The fact that He let it go on for so long disturbs me.
SilentDawning wrote:But why not sooner? The fact that He let it go on for so long disturbs me.
In my mind, it comes down to agency. If He is a God that allows people to have the agency to do as they will, then it would make sense that He’d allow evil to be done on a large scale as well as small. Intervening Himself would take away the agency of every man in the SS. Letting the Allies fight the Nazis allowed it to eventually end while keeping everyone’s agency intact.
As a side note, Stalin had Hitler beat in death count by quite a bit. The higher estimates of the Holodomor alone are on par with the Holocaust.
PazamaManX wrote:In my mind, it comes down to agency. If He is a God that allows people to have the agency to do as they will, then it would make sense that He’d allow evil to be done on a large scale as well as small. Intervening Himself would take away the agency of every man in the SS. Letting the Allies fight the Nazis allowed it to eventually end while keeping everyone’s agency intact.
What about the agency of the victims? Would it not have been better to allow the innocent to live, having a full and rich mortal experience, exercising their own agency along the way? Isn’t God’s nonintervention in the end still depriving people of agency, just indirectly by allowing others to take it from them?
Also, it seems that most of God’s interventions in the scriptures violated someone’s agency. So why would God intervene in those cases, but not this one?
Arrakeen wrote:What about the agency of the victims? Would it not have been better to allow the innocent to live, having a full and rich mortal experience, exercising their own agency along the way? Isn’t God’s nonintervention in the end still depriving people of agency, just indirectly by allowing others to take it from them?
Also, it seems that most of God’s interventions in the scriptures violated someone’s agency. So why would God intervene in those cases, but not this one?
What about their agency? Everyone dies, whether by natural causes, or at the hands of another. With the exception of things like suicide, the time and manner of our death is one of those things that our agency doesn’t get too much of a say in. Sadly, genocide happened to be the way those people died. It’s really not that different from individual murders that happen everyday. Yes, someone (in the case of the Nazis and Soviets, millions) lost their chance to live a full life, but the crime of that goes on the head of the one who took that from them. Is God supposed to never allow murder to happen? That would be nice, but that isn’t the world we were put in unfortunately.
I like to think that He knows better than we do, and whatever comes next will more than make up for whatever we experience during or at the end of our time here. And for those who do commit those atrocities, I’m sure His judgment will also be fair.
Can you point out something specific from the scriptures? Just saying “the scriptures” is very broad.
PazamaManX wrote:
Arrakeen wrote:What about the agency of the victims? Would it not have been better to allow the innocent to live, having a full and rich mortal experience, exercising their own agency along the way? Isn’t God’s nonintervention in the end still depriving people of agency, just indirectly by allowing others to take it from them?
Also, it seems that most of God’s interventions in the scriptures violated someone’s agency. So why would God intervene in those cases, but not this one?
What about their agency? Everyone dies, whether by natural causes, or at the hands of another. With the exception of things like suicide, the time and manner of our death is one of those things that our agency doesn’t get too much of a say in. Sadly, genocide happened to be the way those people died. It’s really not that different from individual murders that happen everyday. Yes, someone (in the case of the Nazis and Soviets, millions) lost their chance to live a full life, but the crime of that goes on the head of the one who took that from them. Is God supposed to never allow murder to happen? That would be nice, but that isn’t the world we were put in unfortunately.
I like to think that He knows better than we do, and whatever comes next will more than make up for whatever we experience during or at the end of our time here. And for those who do commit those atrocities, I’m sure His judgment will also be fair.
Can you point out something specific from the scriptures? Just saying “the scriptures” is very broad.
Why didn’t God let Pharaoh kill Moses, instead sending plagues and pestilence to free the Israelites? Why didn’t God let Laman and Lemuel kill Nephi, but sent an angel to stop them? What about Alma the younger, whose chosen life of sin was interrupted by a supernatural experience that was very difficult for him to reject? Do prophets get special treatment just because of their place in a larger plan? To me that seems more like a chess master with his pawns than a loving father with his children.
Personally, I can accept the idea of a God with a policy of nonintervention across the board more than I can accept one who selectively intervenes only when convenient for his own goals.
Arrakeen wrote:Why didn’t God let Pharaoh kill Moses, instead sending plagues and pestilence to free the Israelites? Why didn’t God let Laman and Lemuel kill Nephi, but sent an angel to stop them? What about Alma the younger, whose chosen life of sin was interrupted by a supernatural experience that was very difficult for him to reject? Do prophets get special treatment just because of their place in a larger plan? To me that seems more like a chess master with his pawns than a loving father with his children.
Those are all good examples you’ve mentioned. Though, one could argue that everyone still had their agency in those situations. Those who had heavenly interventions (Saul, Alma) didn’t become automatons. They chose to change themselves (granted, with a very clear warning on what would happen if they didn’t). For those who were ruined or killed (Pharaoh, Laban), they were given several chances prior to their downfall. But even still, I see your point.
Quote:Personally, I can accept the idea of a God with a policy of nonintervention across the board more than I can accept one who selectively intervenes only when convenient for his own goals.
I’m the opposite. I would rather have a God that selectively intervenes in favor of those who serve Him. Especially when His goals are ultimately in our best interests. And going back to the Holocaust, who’s to say He wasn’t aiding those who fought against the Nazis? Or who’s to say he was? I suppose that comes down to whatever someone chooses to believe.
I’m on the side of God allowing agency as being the reason for allowing suffering. Beyond the Holocaust and Stalin, both of which I do find abhorrent, there is unimaginable pain and suffering inflicted every day to people by other people. I find child, spouse, and elder abuse abhorrent as well, and it is pervasive everywhere in the world every minute of every day. If God gave us unlimited (free) agency, God can’t limit it or it’s no longer free. I do also believe part of our purpose here is to learn pain and suffering so we can appreciate joy (and I believe that is a key part of LDS theology). Thirdly I believe the commandment to love one another is all about this – not inflicting pain or suffering on others (not all pain and suffering is inflicted by humans, some is natural and/or natural consequences). Combined with some other beliefs (including universalism) this is why I lean toward Deist beliefs.
Arrakeen wrote:
PazamaManX wrote:In my mind, it comes down to agency. If He is a God that allows people to have the agency to do as they will, then it would make sense that He’d allow evil to be done on a large scale as well as small. Intervening Himself would take away the agency of every man in the SS. Letting the Allies fight the Nazis allowed it to eventually end while keeping everyone’s agency intact.
What about the agency of the victims? Would it not have been better to allow the innocent to live, having a full and rich mortal experience, exercising their own agency along the way? Isn’t God’s nonintervention in the end still depriving people of agency, just indirectly by allowing others to take it from them?
Also, it seems that most of God’s interventions in the scriptures violated someone’s agency. So why would God intervene in those cases, but not this one?
I couldn’t have said this better myself. God does intervene to help innocent people, the way he empowered Nephi to shock his brothers and prevail. He promises miracles. Surely, with the millions and millions that were exterminated under Hitler, he could have intervened.
I don’t buy the argument that allowing the SS to run its course was a way of holding them accountable — all it would take is the death of one person, or if that is too small a number, a few tens of thousands for there to be significant condemnation/accountability for their actions.
I have observed many Christian churches (and possibly Judeo religions but I have almost no experience with them) answer this question of evil in the world through the story of Adam and Eve and eating the fruit of the tree. The teaching goes something like this. Adam and Eve rejected God, His authority, and His wisdom by disobedience. The consequences had been declared and God never lies. However, God is loving and patient. He is inviting each person to voluntarily accept Him, His authority, and His wisdom and to reject the idea that humans can make it on their own with their own ideas, rules, and ways. By this thinking, all of humanity can be compared to the prodigal son. We rejected God for the freedom of doing what we want. Now we are facing the consequences. Like the father in the parable, God allows the prodigal son to depart and experience the consequence of living in a harsh and unforgiving word before ultimately concluding that God’s way is better and voluntarily choosing God’s wisdom and authority.
By this thinking, the Holocaust was a particularly ugly manifestation of humankind’s rejection of God. Someday the experiment will conclude and every knee will bow and every tongue confess that we tried it our own way and failed miserably. Then God/Jesus will forgive us and we will happily live under His authority forevermore.
I would take a different approach. As modern scientist has studied our universe one principle that is believed is that the universe is isotropic. This basically means that the laws of physics remain throughout the universe and that the universe is consistent. As we observe our own solar system, we realize that life as we know it is unique to earth. The universe is very harsh towards life as we think we know life. As abundant as life is here on earth – survival of life on earth is very tenuous. 99.9% of all species that have existed on earth are currently extinct. What is also interesting is that earth is so harsh towards life that it is believe that all life on earth has evolved from a single source of life. That there are no secondary sources. Even the single source of life is so difficult to establish that the popular notion now is that the origins of life started somewhere else and somehow got here to earth. Intelligent life is ever rarer. For hundreds of millions of years various species evolved on earth but only intelligent life has evolved in a matter of a few thousands of years. But now that intelligent man has evolved the primary threat to mankind is mankind itself. As I have read through this thread all of the travesties of justice are the sole responsibility of man. But the ill treatments of man to man is not a recent phenomenon. All ancient civilizations employed slavery. Religion has not been as reasonable as one would hope. The great Christina king Charlemagne spread Christianity to northern Europe with a brutal slash and burn method. If even one person in a city refused Christian baptism the city was burned to the ground and all its inhabitants murdered. Charlemagne killed more people in northern Europe than all the occurrences of the Black Plague.
As bad as Charlemagne was, he had a good side – he is the founder of universal teaching standards which is where the term University comes from in our modern society. For all of us that hold a college degree – we have benefited from his influence. He was also very influenceable in the Books that form the modern Bible. For all his doing he was pronounced by the Pope – “Defender of the Faith”.
When Europe came to the Bahamas, they discovered the Lucayan peoples. These people were so peaceful that they had no word in their language for war and the only weapons they used were for hunting. But the Lucayan people would not convert to Christianity – there is no record of even a single individual conversion. The result is utter and complete genocide – all the DNA traces of the Lucayan are gone.
We are told in scripture that our labors to survive and feed ourselves will not be easy but rather we will be met with torments. Our LDS doctrine explicitly informs us that the natural tendencies of mankind it the enemy of G-d, which I assume includes his compassion and mercy. In addition, the only possible outcome of life is death. But there is a caveat that there will be a restoration of life as a gift from G-d – we call the restoration the resurrection. This resurrection is made possible by what we call in modern English – The Atonement. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture that if we hope for Christ (G-d) in this life only we are of all men most miserable.
There is no hope without G-d and the only possibility of hope come through the resurrection of Christ. I believe this is the good spoken of concerning the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The evil is the suffering and death we experience so that one day we will stand before G-d with the complete knowledge of good and evil – I believe we will be able to honestly express to Him our agency to immerse or center ourselves in all that is good or choose some of the fun and popular things we experienced with evil.
One thing that might explain why God allows so many people to suffer, and allowed such abhorrent abuses such as the Holocaust and the things Stalin did, is his LONG VIEW. He sees the eternal view. As we readin the D&C 121: Quote:
7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.
9 Thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands.
So to God, suffering is a blip in the grand scheme, and he sees what is in store for the average person for eternity. Therefore, it’s easier for Him to allow such suffering to continue.
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