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What I always see as striking irony is how much your average Mormon (definitely including myself) is like the Pharisees that Jesus was always slamming in the Bible. We step past the truly needy in order to make outwardly apparent gestures at church. What if every Mormon began giving 1% to the church and 9% to the needy? Wouldn’t that be closer to literally giving money to God? I cringe when I think how much money the church spent on opulent temples in the past 10 years when we could have just as easily built utilitarian temples and given literally hundreds of millions to worthy causes. I know the church has some programs for the needy, but I know the charity fund isn’t nearly as well funded as the temple fund. We just built 2 extra temples in the Salt Lake valley. Add in Bountiful and the two in Utah county and we have 7 temples within a 50 mile radius. I have a hard time thinking about the hungry people in the world while driving past 3 of these on the way to work every day. observant wrote:“You can’t afford to cheat the Lord.”
What I have a problem with are the Legion of stories where people are physically blessed for their tithing sacrifice.
I am just waiting for the following inspirational story: Family must decide between payment of tithing or mortgage payment. Family chooses tithing. Bank forecloses on family. Family awaits promised blessings to come in the afterlife.
Or even this one: Family must decide between tithing payment or mortgage payment. Family chooses tithing. Family meets with bishop and secures church financial assistance to meet obligations. Everyone’s happy
:thumbup: Quote:What I have a problem with are the Legion of stories where people are physically blessed for their tithing sacrifice.
Are they making up their stories?
Quote:Or even this one: Family must decide between tithing payment or mortgage payment. Family chooses tithing. Family meets with bishop and
secures church financial assistance to meet obligations. Everyone’s happy Do you not think this one happens? Because I’m pretty positive it does. Pretty much a lot.
Or this one: Family does not pay tithing…ever. Family meets with bishop and secures church financial assistance to meet obligations. Everyone’s happy. Well, at least financial obligations have been met.
Which one do you think happens more often?
I actually am a believer that if people pay tithing they are more likely to be able to meet their financial obligations. Is that a blessing from the Lord or is it that they become more adept and careful with how they spend their money? I don’t know.
My quote was taught to me by my mother. I don’t take it very seriously and I’m glad we’ve had a good time and a laugh over it. But I would never discounts some else’s faith promoting tithing story.
Roy, fwiw, I’ve lived both of your examples – paying tithing and losing a house, and paying tithing and getting help from the Church to stay in a house. What about the other 99.95% of the people on this earth that don’t pay tithing to the LDS church. Do they get to keep their houses? If someone stops paying their tithing and gets a big bonus the next week, is that proof that god rewards those who stop paying tithing? If I pay my tithing and then get laid off, is god punishing me for paying tithing? If not, then why should I believe that someone who receives blessings after paying tithing is being rewarded or that someone who elects not to will be punished? It just seems so random. Quote:I actually am a believer that if people pay tithing they are more likely to be able to meet their financial obligations. Is that a blessing from the Lord or is it that they become more adept and careful with how they spend their money? I don’t know.
I’ve heard this, but I’m already responsible with my money. I always have been. So, for me, the math doesn’t add up. Unless some invisible hand moves the pieces on the chessboard to keep me employed above and beyond the level of employment my natural abilities can sustain, I don’t see how you can actually be better off financially by paying tithing.
For example, a family that earns $50,000 and is natively responsible with their money, irrespective of the influence of tithing. If they pay tithing on gross, they have $45000 to work with after paying $5000 in tithing. Does paying that tithing somehow make them so much more responsible with their funds that they recoup the $5000 they paid to the Church as they spend they remaining $45000? If you’re already responsible with your money, I don’t see how this is so.
I find most of my financial mistakes have been due to unforseen problems, not due to irresponsibility with my money (such as buying a house right before the financial collapse, for example). Tithing really only frustrates me most of my life because it stands in the way of my achieving my financial goals, and I no longer feel its voluntary because of the TR requirement.
And, the OP said they didnt’ want this to degenerate into a tithing discussion…I guess it’s hard not to since the opening title is a dyed-in-the-wool tithing argument….
brown, I don’t tie financial reward to the payment of tithing. I would be a hypocrite if I did. I don’t doubt some people’s experiences with really cool things that helped them pay their bills, but I don’t beleive it is the default for all tithe payers. The rain falls on the just AND the unjust, and financial hardship hits the tithe-payers AND the non-tithe-payers. I do agree, however, that those who contribute a significant part of their income to some cause tend to live more within their means – probably because they have to be more conscious of a budget.
Ray Degree wrote:Roy, few, I’ve lived both of your examples – paying tithing and losing a house, and paying tithing and getting help from the Church to stay in a house.
Thank you Ray. You inspire me, not because your experience is more “true” than the typical but because it is more varied.
Brown wrote:What about the other 99.95% of the people on this earth that doesn’t pay tithing to the LDS church. Do they get to keep their houses? If someone stops paying their tithing and gets a big bonus the next week, is that proof that god rewards those who stop paying tithing? If I pay my tithing and then get laid off, is god punishing me for paying tithing? If not, then why should I believe that someone who receives blessings after paying tithing is being rewarded or that someone who elects not to will be punished? It just seems so random.
Life happens. We interpret the events from the perspective of our own framework and we either attempt to find the pattern or sometimes even try to superimpose our pre-set pattern onto these events. We try to find causation in the stock market, the economy, natural disasters, news reports, and the ups and downs in our lives. We want to simplify and abbreviate very complex issues. The relationship between tithing and blessings is just one of these issues.
Silent Dawning wrote:I’ve heard this, but I’m already responsible with my money. I always have been. So, for me, the math doesn’t add up. Unless some invisible hand moves the pieces on the chessboard to keep me employed above and beyond the level of employment my natural abilities can sustain, I don’t see how you can actually be better off financially by paying tithing. For example, a family that earns $50,000 and is natively responsible with their money, irrespective of the influence of tithing. If they pay tithing on gross, they have $45000 to work with after paying $5000 in tithing. Does paying that tithing somehow make them so much more responsible with their funds that they recoup the $5000 they paid to the Church as they spend the remaining $45000? If you’re already responsible with your money, I don’t see how this is so.
I tend to agree SD, the potential (non-spiritual) benefits would seem to be on par with overpaying on your federal taxes as a forced savings plan and to avoid an unplanned tax debt later in the year. Another example could be to pay off consumer debt smallest to largest rather than highest interest rate first in order to get the emotional momentum of retiring debt.
observant wrote:But I would never discounts some else’s faith promoting tithing story.
I agree here as well. I do not doubt that it happened and they see it as miraculous and evidence that Heavenly Father is aware of them. Yet I experience these stories tragically, they trigger in my mind examples where individuals yearn for a divine intervention and seem to be denied. I draw different conclusions than some others, but I never belittle or discount their experiences.
This can also be an example of the difference on what you may hear from people at church vs what the church really teaches. I think the Church teaches it as a principle of giving and the willingness to commit to the Lord, and formalized it from D&C 119 to apply to baptized members. Then some people have put the little sayings on it to try to relay some thoughts, such as to remember that all things come from God, so if you look at it that way, than being willing to give 10% back may be more palatable. But that doesn’t really capture the full meaning behind the principle of tithing (which is a spiritual law, as all things are), IMO.
So if that helps some people, good for them. It doesn’t mean as much to me, and I let it go. As stated in other posts, it can begin to build expectations in people’s minds about influence on the world outside them or about God’s intervention in their lives, and some expectations will not be met.
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