God, the universe, and us

[Anonymous]

I just finished browsing the 21 pages of topics here in the support forum. I didn’t find what I was looking for that has already been discussed, so I’m going to open this up.

First off, I feel very mortal. If I start to ponder the case of infinite regression of Fathers/Sons, worlds without number have been created (populated with spirits, I assume, just as numerous as what was required to fill this world with 6 billion current inhabitants plus more for history), whether Jesus is the savior of just this world or all other worlds too, etc., my head starts to explode. The one scripture that I can totally understand that still comforts me with its message on this topic is:

Moses 1

35 “But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you” . . .

36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

I am curious with Moses as to all that has been created, but if I were able to understand about this earth and how we personally relate to the creator, then I would be content. So dealing with anything outside of this realm just boggles my mind and doesn’t help me. I don’t need Joseph to open the heavens and pull back the curtains and “Lectures on Faith” and “King Follet Discourse” explain to me about generations and things I just cannot comprehend. I just need to understand me, and the person standing next to me, and how we relate to each other, this earth life, and where we came from.

I am having difficulty being able to believe in God as I understand him. Ignoring the “worlds without number” issue, I can’t understand why he would create us. We are supposedly less than the dust of the earth (in terms of our obedience – at least the dust obeys him!), and yet at the same time we are his “children” and he cares deeply and personally about each of us. Yes, for all 6+ billion of us with our own individual needs, desires, experience, challenges, and potential, a life has been custom designed for EACH one of us to help us achieve our personal divine potential to become like our Father who sired us. On top of that is all the animal life (not even a sparrow falls without being noticed), plant life, weather patterns, tectonic movements, and more that is minutely monitored and MANAGED so every thing that happens is exactly what is SUPPOSED to happen according to God’s “will,” the plan for everything. So not only is everything happening in this life working together to fulfill the minutely all-encompassing plan for this earth, but for all other earths at the same time, everywhere! (which I already said I wasn’t going to deal with! )

How can someone be able to believe in this? How can there be a being who both is aware of every particle of the universe and has command over each speck SIMULTANEOUSLY, and yet despite being so immense and powerful, can and wants to have a personal relationship with each one of his billions of children (just noting those on this earth). Not only does he want a connection with them, but he wants to help them personally become a god like him (as many as are willing/able)! How many gods, kings, and priests does God need to fill all his creation/universes? What hope does a small, frail, mortal with all kinds of problems and imperfections, not even in the same league with an Adam, Noah, Moses, Isaiah, Joseph Smith, etc. have for a personal relationship to the Lord of Everything? I could see connecting with intermediaries, but each person gets his/her own connection with The ONE, just as Jesus, the prophets, and other great and chosen mortals did? I just can’t wrap my head or my heart around it. It seems much more likely that the Great Clockmaker would have designed the clock and its pieces, wound it up, and then left it to run as designed without actively running each cog and gear and interfering/interfacing with all the parts at all times, not to mention not worrying about the clock itself becoming a new clockmaker!

I am just so confused. It used to be easy for me to believe in God, the Celestial order of his kingdom and his plan, and all that goes with it, but I have a hard time rationalizing faith in something that seems so fantastical that must be ENTIRELY believed based on what other people (JS, prophets) have told us about it. There are so many competing ideas out there as to what God, Allah, Brahman, Buddah, human nature, divinity really encompass. “What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?”

😯

[Anonymous]

wjclerk wrote:

…If I start to ponder the case of infinite regression of Fathers/Sons, worlds without number have been created (populated with spirits, I assume, just as numerous as what was required to fill this world with 6 billion current inhabitants plus more for history), whether Jesus is the savior of just this world or all other worlds too, etc., my head starts to explode.

…I am having difficulty being able to believe in God as I understand him. Ignoring the “worlds without number” issue, I can’t understand why he would create us. We are supposedly less than the dust of the earth (in terms of our obedience – at least the dust obeys him!), and yet at the same time we are his “children” and he cares deeply and personally about each of us. Yes, for all 6+ billion of us with our own individual needs, desires, experience, challenges, and potential, a life has been custom designed for EACH one of us to help us achieve our personal divine potential to become like our Father who sired us. On top of that is all the animal life…plant life, weather patterns, tectonic movements, and more that is minutely monitored and MANAGED so every thing that happens is exactly what is SUPPOSED to happen according to God’s “will,” the plan for everything.

…How can someone be able to believe in this? How can there be a being who both is aware of every particle of the universe and has command over each speck SIMULTANEOUSLY, and yet despite being so immense and powerful, can and wants to have a personal relationship with each one of his billions of children…Not only does he want a connection with them, but he wants to help them personally become a god like him (as many as are willing/able)!…I am just so confused. It used to be easy for me to believe in God, the Celestial order of his kingdom and his plan, and all that goes with it, but I have a hard time rationalizing faith in something that seems so fantastical that must be ENTIRELY believed based on what other people (JS, prophets) have told us about it.

CS Lewis talked about the idea that humans can seem relatively insignificant when you consider the sheer size and age of the universe as a common atheist objection to religion. The general idea is that if humans are so important then why would God go to all this trouble to create everything we see and take so long to create people rather than just create humans and the minimum environment for them to live in as soon as possible? Sometimes it seems like it would be a huge waste of time and effort for God to set things up exactly the way we see if it was really supposed to be all about us. I can’t remember exactly how CS Lewis answered this but it seems like it was something to the effect that there are different ways to measure significance other than just relative magnitude. For example, humans are very unique compared to anything else we see at this point so by that measure they are very significant. The closest animals in terms of DNA are chimps and compared to them we certainly look god-like so it turns out that a few physical differences have ended up making all the difference in the world in terms of practical significance.

I definitely don’t believe God is controlling everything like a huge puppet show or that he set everything up ahead of time to happen exactly the way it did in every case. It looks to me like some events are mostly random and almost everything could have easily happened very differently than it did especially when it involves so many independent choices people make but I don’t see why it couldn’t be by design that there should be some luck and struggle involved with life. Rather than assuming that we know God is supposed to be a certain way and then trying to figure out how everything fits around that idea I prefer to start with everything I know about and then ask whether God helps explain what we see or not. In the case of the development of life in general and humans in particular I still think God is a better explanation for what we see now than pure chance and completely random evolutionary changes but I can also see why atheists could easily come to the opposite conclusion based on their own background and experience.

[Anonymous]

wjclerk, I agree that much thought on the topic can tend to explode the brain. I decided a few years ago that what we have – what has been said on the subject is at best different forms of human interpretation and expansion of what may be the smallest glimpses of revelation. It is bound to get all twisted up in that case. As a result I have given up on the attempt to nail down any “real” type of knowledge on the subject. When we’re talking physical knowledge or verification, I can’t see that it’s within my reach.

I have learned to take physical (or scientific) answers to physical qustions, and spiritual answers to spiritual questions. It has helped me gain a degree of peace in my life that I would not otherwise obtain. I agree that when we step back and look at the grand workings of the universe, it looks more like a “clock maker” set the wheels in motion and it’s doing its thing. I don’t see that as out of harmony with the core principles of the gospel. It works for me, it makes the most sense. I don’t worry about “absolute” truth in areas where it cannot be “known” physically. Spiritual truths lie in the personal/subjective realm, but that does not make them any less real. Live your truth, that’s all any of us can do.

[Anonymous]

wjclerk wrote:

we are his “children” and he cares deeply and personally about each of us. Yes, for all 6+ billion of us with our own individual needs, desires, experience, challenges, and potential, a life has been custom designed for EACH one of us to help us achieve our personal divine potential to become like our Father who sired us. On top of that is all the animal life (not even a sparrow falls without being noticed), plant life, weather patterns, tectonic movements, and more that is minutely monitored and MANAGED so every thing that happens is exactly what is SUPPOSED to happen according to God’s “will,” the plan for everything. So not only is everything happening in this life working together to fulfil the minutely all-encompassing plan for this earth, but for all other earths at the same time, everywhere!

Orson wrote:

I agree that when we step back and look at the grand workings of the universe, it looks more like a “clock maker” set the wheels in motion and it’s doing its thing. I don’t see that as out of harmony with the core principles of the gospel. It works for me, it makes the most sense.

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I definitely don’t believe God is controlling everything like a huge puppet show or that he set everything up ahead of time to happen exactly the way it did in every case. It looks to me like some events are mostly random and almost everything could have easily happened very differently than it did especially when it involves so many independent choices people make but I don’t see why it couldn’t be by design that there should be some luck and struggle involved with life.

I tend to agree with DA and Orson on this, not because they are right (sorry guys)- but because their answers are better suited to my personal needs than the “individually personalized plan” approach.

One of my pet areas of interest is how various people of LDS backgrounds deal with tragedy. I have found several case studies (one where 3 of six children came down with a degenerative genetic disorder that became an increasing burden on the family and is always fatal in the end and the other dealing with a child’s mental illness and suicide) where the concept of God personalizing the trials in such a way as to maximize the most growth and gain for all the participants was a great comfort. It seems to answer the “why me?” question and sidesteps the destructive questions of “where did we go wrong?” and other guilt inducing lines of thought. This approach does not work for me but I can understand why it is so helpful to others.

I feel that I have taken somewhat of a compromise road where God does not necessarily alter any of our realities but is aware and concerned with us and may send us increments of hope, love, patience, compassion, or other forms of “tender mercies.” This path is embodied in the following statements: “It is not so much the trial that is tailored to the individual as the tutelage.” And, “Perhaps God’s hand is not in all things but rather is upon us as we face all things.”

wjclerk wrote:

How can someone be able to believe in this? How can there be a being who both is aware of every particle of the universe and has command over each speck SIMULTANEOUSLY, and yet despite being so immense and powerful, can and wants to have a personal relationship with each one of his billions of children (just noting those on this earth). Not only does he want a connection with them, but he wants to help them personally become a god like him (as many as are willing/able)!

As implied previously, I do not believe what I do because it is any “more true” than the other approaches. I believe it because it speaks to me or resonates with my soul. It allows me to continue to build a mental framework that while not always internally consistent is at least internally honest. Your journey and the tools required to get you through will be unique to you.

As my signature line indicates: “It is not the function of religion to answer all the questions about God’s moral government of the universe, but to give one courage, through faith, to go on in the face of questions he never finds the answer to in his present status.” TPC: Harold B. Lee 223

Someone here recently said to “live your truth.” I not only seek to live my truth but that my life (and the lives of those I may touch in my journey) will have been more meaningful for it. This for me answers this statement “I just need to understand me, and the person standing next to me, and how we relate to each other” and leaves me with enough to do in this short lifespan that I too am “content.”

[Anonymous]

The request of God that tends to fail in the long run: Reveal yourself to me the way I want you to appear.

The request of God that tends to disturb us, but causes us to stretch and grow: Reveal yourself to me as you are, and fill me with wonder and surprise.

Our problems with believing in God usually have more to do with our expectations and assumptions and less to do with the nature or existence of God. Atheists tend to really be rejecting a specific definition of God — that of a magical, white-haired old man wearing a toga sitting on a throne directing the universal traffic that created the universe with magic words. That might not be God. I actually agree it isn’t, but I still believe in God (just not that one). I don’t know anymore for sure, but i’m OK with that.

[Anonymous]

Sorry I posted such an impossible question for my first post. I know what I asked is tantamount to asking to pull back the veil on this life and know beyond doubt what exists on the other side. I don’t think God or what is beyond earth can be revealed by a little dog pulling back a curtain to expose the man speaking to those on the other side (no disrespect intended drawing an analogy between God and the wizard of Oz). It is perplexing to me that God requires so much of mankind in instructing them through mediums to find him, then makes it so hard to be found unless we rely on the word of those who tell us they have succeeded in the search.

My own search often seems fruitless. I don’t seem any closer to understanding than when I began. I know this is just perception, but it really feels lonely down here sometimes.

[Anonymous]

have you read “the kolob theorem”? it’s available on the web. a lot of what you posted reminds me of what’s in that publication.

i have studied ufology and alien phenomena and one ufologist who fascinates me is Clifford E. Stone. He believes in God and he’s had first hand experience with “the veil”. he was interviewed by a female host at http://www.conciousmedianetwork.com . it use to be free to view but now you have to pay. i found out about this interview from youtube.com .

i feel a lot Clifford has said about alien life (some of which he has had first hand experience witnessing) only supports what is said in the Pearl of Great Price as it refers to life elsewhere in the universe. He even says there are quite a few of the alien species out there that look humanoid in appearance. some look very much like you and myself and could walk among us and you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference except for things that they could do that we aren’t capable of doing (for example, walk in a dark room, touch a dark object and tell you what color that object is, or a heightened sense of sight, touch or smell)

I posted a video on youtube of him if you are interested in viewing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLL4rpJXkA” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLL4rpJXkA

Mike

[Anonymous]

wjclerk wrote:

My own search often seems fruitless. I don’t seem any closer to understanding than when I began. I know this is just perception, but it really feels lonely down here sometimes.

I can understand the sense of loneliness. Yes. It can feel like that for people. I don’t know that you are farther from understanding though. You are narrowing down things that are not working for you, and now doing this consciously and with purpose. Determining what doesn’t work is just another way of getting closer to what does work. It depends on how you look at it.

Sure, many of us (all?) on some level mourn the loss of innocence we experience in our transition. We once had answer given to us that might have felt sure and safe. That is taken away. The rug is yanked out from under us. It takes time to come to peace with this, but peace can be had. In a hopeful and positive way, we need to be disabused of our false notions — our personal “false doctrines.” It stretches our soul in sometimes painful ways, but it makes us stronger and more mature in the long run.

Some describe a change of relationship: from child of God to friend of God.

[Anonymous]

The way I look at it is that the most brilliant minds that ever existed have never been able to figure it out…so I have no shot at it! :wtf:

While that sounds self-deprecating, it is just reality, I can accept that. But that doesn’t mean I give up hope or effort. I have tried for a while to not care about thinking of deep things like how involved God is or isn’t in the billions of His creations, and the vast expanse of the universe… but it doesn’t leave me easily. Maybe its the way I was raised as a mormon and the constant eternal progression I was taught from primary. But whatever the reason, I find that I can’t just turn it off…I wonder, I doubt, I search…and I believe I will never figure it out totally, but I will benefit by continuing to push myself to understand more than I know today.

The trick is to put enough time and effort into it to see my world differently today, while allowing myself to park the racing thoughts and questions at times, so I can give my brain a rest before it explodes. Like everything else, there is a middle-way, a balanced approach, and it is OK to go at a steady pace with patience and diligence, and never find the whole truth. :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

wjclerk wrote:

Sorry I posted such an impossible question for my first post. I know what I asked is tantamount to asking to pull back the veil on this life and know beyond doubt what exists on the other side. I don’t think God or what is beyond earth can be revealed by a little dog pulling back a curtain to expose the man speaking to those on the other side (no disrespect intended drawing an analogy between God and the wizard of Oz). It is perplexing to me that God requires so much of mankind in instructing them through mediums to find him, then makes it so hard to be found unless we rely on the word of those who tell us they have succeeded in the search.

My own search often seems fruitless. I don’t seem any closer to understanding than when I began. I know this is just perception, but it really feels lonely down here sometimes.

Or we can apply the idea that the simplest explanation is likely to be the correct one. IN this case it is easier to say it is all made up in the minds of a few individuals. Sort of anticlimactic I know but it explains more than all the guessing and pondering ever will. It is like wondering what is at the top of a mountain because no one has been there. People speculate that there if a pot of gold, others say there is a passage to another dimension. A few say they have had a vision and they have seen the top of the mountain and it is glorious. ONe day you finally make the trip to the top of the mountain and find dirt and rocks. BIg let down but should you not have realized this from the evidence you had around you. Why assume there is something fantastic before you actually have experience or evidence of it.

[Author]

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