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I mentioned this life-changing event briefly in another post, but I want to talk more about it. It’s a story of love, mystery, and….well, just read. Early in the summer of 2009 I was living at home in California and I met a pretty girl who was home for the summer from BYU. I took her out and we hit it off immediately. We dated for the rest of the summer and had a fantastic time. She and I went on the most amazing dates I have ever been on. It was a truly magical summer. At the end of the summer, we both moved to Provo to apartment complexes on opposite sides of BYU. She continued at BYU and I worked in a cell phone store to gain residency in Utah (I had graduated from BYU and wanted to pursue another degree.)
Things had been going increasingly well with us. I was starting to fall for her, and she was starting to fall for me. Then one Friday night I took her to a comedy show on BYU campus, and we had a good time. We went back to my apartment, and after about a minute of being there, she said she felt something was wrong. I looked around the apartment and everything was normal. I looked at her, and she looked like she felt sick. Seriously, she looked
bad.Her feelings of sickness continued, and we decided to leave and take a walk. We took a walk around Provo, and at the end of the walk, she still felt ill. So I dropped her off at her apartment and went home. The next few days she didn’t text me much, and her feelings that something was wrong didn’t go away. In a few days she told me that we needed to talk. We met at the BYU bell tower, and she told me that it wasn’t right for us to be dating. She dumped me because she had a revelation that she needed to dump me. It was obviously hard for her to break up with me and it didn’t seem like she really wanted to. She seemed to be doing what she felt she had to do and she obviously still liked me.
I don’t think that she was lying to me or pretending to have a revelation that she didn’t have, and as far as I know she didn’t have any acting talent. I also don’t think that she had made a decision to break up with me and then conveniently received a revelation that confirmed it. She seemed to want to keep dating me, but clearly felt that she had a revelation to dump me. Here revelatory experience seemed to be genuine.
That was almost three years ago, and I haven’t had a girlfriend since then, though I’ve tried very hard to find someone else. She, on the other hand, is married and pregnant. I think she got married about a year or a year-and-a-half after she and I broke up. So I know the story she can tell in Sacrament meeting: “I was dating this guy, and the Spirit told me that I needed to break up with him, so I broke up with him, and then a year later I met my wonderful husband and we’ve been very happy ever since. I’m glad I listened to the Spirit. God really does love me and knows what’s best for me.” But my side of the story is very, very different. I would tell the story this way: “After struggling for awhile in the dating scene, I finally found someone I really liked, and she liked me. Just as I was falling in love with her, God took her away from me and gave her to someone else and left me with nothing. And after almost three years of looking for someone else, I still have no one.”
A few weeks after this breakup, I had an experience that led me to believe that God had another purpose for me, namely, to write a book about a certain topic in Church culture. I wrote a substantial amount and sent a few chapters to Deseret Book (they like an outline or a few chapters to be submitted,) and my book was rejected (I got the rejection letter this last December.) After this rejection, I finally gave myself permission to investigate all the problems in Church history and doctrine that I had been avoiding.
If there is a naturalistic neurological explanation for this girl’s revelation to dump me, then I can easily see how all spiritual experiences can be manufactured by the brain, because the experience was very real to her.
Though it is possible, I don’t think that this girl was lying to me about receiving a revelation to dump me, and a mutual friend of me and this girl confirmed that this girl’s revelation was quite genuine. If God was so concerned about helping her find the right person, why did God leave me out in the cold with no one? And if God made sure that this girl didn’t marry the wrong person (who was me, apparently) then why doesn’t God warn everyone who is about to marry the wrong person that they are about to marry the wrong person? If God always warned active LDS people when they were about to enter into a doomed marriage, there would be no divorces among active LDS people. But there are lots of divorces among active LDS people, indicating that God does not warn everyone who is about to enter into a doomed marriage.
I’ve been over the girl and the heartache of the breakup for a long time. But I’m still not really sure what to make of the whole experience. What do you think? What does this mean about God’s love for some and not others, for how God intervenes or doesn’t intervene in our lives, and about the reality or the biological nature of revelation?
We don’t know the rules that God uses to decide who gets revelation or not. There is some evidence in the scriptures that real intent to act on revelation, clean living, sincerity etcetera facilitates revelation, but personally, I’ve found God very mysterious about when and what he talks to me about. I can, however, confirm that I was on the same end of the revelatory and relationship “stick” as your ex-girlfriend. A girl had waited for me for two years on my mission, having dated me for two years previous to my leaving on a mission. We got along famously. But I had concerns about her personality and an aspect of her appearance. After my mission, I prayed about whether I should marry her and I was totally overcome with this depressive feeling. Kind of like Joseph Smith right before he asked which Church he should join — in the old First Vision video where he is seen clawing at the ground in growing darkness.
That describes how I felt, and when I finished the prayer, I knew I had to break up with her. Afterwards, I felt happy and at peace about it, although I missed her at times because she did meet some non-romantic needs.
I later met my wife, and got nothing when I prayed. We have not been really happy, although you might say that after 20 years there is still love and we have made it work. Kind of like a successful failure, if you know what I mean. My ex-girflfriend on the other hand, is reportedly very happy with her husband and all their children.
So, I confirm that God sometimes speaks to us about who to marry. In my case, I think the revelation was for the benefit of my girlfriend at the time who was too awestruck with me to be open to any thought of not getting married. And then I got left out in the cold when I prayed about who I personally should marry afterwards.
I don’t understand it. I refuse to rationalize it either, I just accept that this is where I am right now, and hope/trust things will work out in the end.
I had a very similar experience, except we were engaged, and it happened 4 weeks before our wedding date. she called up and told me that she had a spiritual experience that I wasn’t “the one”. I didn’t stop dating, though. i went out a lot, and diversified my portfolio with lots of experience. but something wasn’t right.
but for me, personally, given that i was devastated by what appeared to be god’s rejection of me. i went through profound and useless guilt for years, and when i dd get married, it wasn’t the same — i was more pragmatic and cautious.
so even if the event was over, and i reject, today, the idea that gd rejected me, the event still affects me.
SilentDawning wrote:I can, however, confirm that I was on the same end of the revelatory and relationship “stick” as your ex-girlfriend. A girl had waited for me for two years on my mission, having dated me for two years previous to my leaving on a mission. We got along famously.
But I had concerns about her personality and an aspect of her appearance.That describes how I felt, and when I finished the prayer, I knew I had to break up with her. Afterwards, I felt happy and at peace about it, although I missed her at times because she did meet some non-romantic needs.
Did you ever think that perhaps this whole experience was just a self fulfilled prophecy on your part? Psychologically and subconsciously you no longer felt that your personalities could mesh and her physical appearance was no longer good enough for someone with the title of RM.
Granted this was many years ago but did you ever really look back and think that it might have been you wanting to break up with your old girlfriend who took the time to wait for you?
LAMEFor Your Information I know this because the head instructor I interviewed let me in on the conversation.
There could be a number of reasons why she chose to end the relationship. One of them could have been that she just didn’t feel ready for a relationship. Maybe she had some growing up to do before she met her current husband.
Sacrament meeting talks and testimony is all about pretending to be humble while still tooting your own horn at the same time. She would love to tell the story of how humble she was to have to break up with a boyfriend only to find Peter
:sick: Perfect.:thumbdown: I wouldn’t worry about trying to find that perfect girl. Just enjoy dating for the sake of dating. It doesn’t have to be a long term relationship. Be open to blind dates. Be open to set ups. Just have fun.
GREEN[/color] “> APPLES[/color] [/size] This is really interesting. To hear the few stories here, the guys feel rejected by God (even when you were the one who broke it off), but presumably the girls are all feeling blessed. Of course, we’re only hearing this from the guy’s perspective. There’s an interesting study that shows that losing one’s spouse affects men significantly more than women – takes 7 years off a man’s life! And the reason for that is not spiritual but social. Women have stronger social connections generally speaking. They land on their feet better than men do. I suspect that’s what is really behind this. I also want to caveat two things: 1) I don’t believe there is a “the one” for anyone. People can be happy with many different choices, some are better than others, and 2) some choices are going to be bad ultimately for some reason or other whether or not that reason is apparent before marriage. Sometimes we are attuned to our own needs and self-interests, and sometimes we are not. Most people in the dating age are not 100% self-aware, at least not in my experience. And it’s hard to break off a relationship once we become invested in it. We seek confirming evidence of what we want.
When I think back on my own dating experiences, I had two college BFs that I could have married (aside from my actual husband). For me, no doubt I’ve ended up with the best of the 3 for the kind of person I am: my insecurities, my interests, my sense of humor, how I want to live my life, how to raise kids, etc. BF 1 I would have ended up resenting big time because his life was so mapped out for him and I would have felt like a piece of luggage along for the ride. I also always felt insecure around him, and he was a moody SOB besides (which I found far too attractive for my own good – later in life that would have possibly driven us both nuts). BF 2 was amazing, a great guy, but ultimately, I didn’t believe in him enough. I felt he would give up too easily rather than struggling on his own independently (he came from a more privileged life than I did), and I didn’t want to end up dependent on his parents. At the time, I could never have articulated these objections about the relationships. I didn’t have the self-awareness to even know what bothered me, and I was definitely in love with both of them (until I wasn’t). It’s hard to walk away when you love someone.
InquiringMind, I’m sorry for your sad experience. You are yet another casualty of one of Mormondom’s worst cultural ideas, i.e. “the one.” How has this become a part of our Mormon belief system? Why do we have so many young men and women out there looking for the “one?” The soulmate. The heart’s heart. The “circle of our love.” And it’s all a bunch of baloney. Quote:I also want to caveat two things: 1) I don’t believe there is a “the one” for anyone. People can be happy with many different choices, some are better than others
Absolutely. Marriage is not about finding the right person. Marriage is a process that comes after you find someone you like and are attracted to. Marriage is something you work at. Marriage is a construction not an end goal. I’ve been telling my daughters this for a while. But, boy, is it hard to get them to set aside those fancy-schmancy notions of romance and hearts and flowers and “the one”. I think there are couples out there who really click and spend most of their lives getting along. The rest of us have to work at it. I love my wife and we get along pretty well but the course of our married life has not run smooth by any means. There’s a great scene from the old movie “The Best Years of Our Lives” where the daughter is struggling with a romantic complication and declares that her parents don’t understand because they’ve never had any troubles. The mother smiles ruefully and says to her husband:
Quote:We never had any trouble.” How many times have I told you I hated you and believed it in my heart? How many times have you said you were sick and tired of me; that we were all washed up? How many times have we had to fall in love all over again?
Sorry to go on about this but it really hits a nerve with me because, first of all, it’s NOT doctrinal. And second, it encourages these young men and women to scamper around searching for a soul mate that they will never find and ignore the perfectly good potential mates that are right under their noses.
At first I was a bit offended by Greenapples statement that maybe it was me who wanted to break up…But looking at it honestly, there was some truth to that, looking at it objectively. She had been obese and was still well overweight which bothered me for some reason. People would tell me that was shallow but all that did was put me into a state of self-torment for not being spiritual. And she was clutchy. I never seemed to be able to have time to myself and it was hard to breathe. If I was available, she insisted on being part of my life, even if we had spent every waking moment together. But she met some very powerful emotional needs I had at the time and one of them was the experience of working hard alongside someone who is an intimate friend. And she had a number of phenomenal qualities that sort of compensated for her weaknesses, but those weaknesses, in the end, bothered me. But I also have to admit, when I prayed, I DID have that experience of overwhelming depression that came over me when I prayed. It was like an on/off switch. Perhaps it was just me, but at the time I believed it was God confirming that it was the right thing to break up with her. And how I felt afterwards — at peace, free, alive — confirmed it as well.
Whether God or not, it was a good decision. When I prayed about my current wife, I never felt depressed. I never felt confirmed either, just neutral and finally decided that in my late twenties I should move forward with it. She claimed to have confirmation, so that was enough for me. Now, based on our conversations, I still can’t understand the nature of her confirmations or if she just experienced some form of self-fulfilling prophecy herself.
I sometimes wonder if the relationship was good for her, and not great for me, but given the choices at the time, the Lord just left me to decide for myself. I know she stays in our relationship because I meet some of her most powerful needs very well. I also have endurance and resilience, and so God knew that in spite of the challenges, we would make it work…however, I speculate. Again, I say, we don’t know God’s rules, and he sees far ahead.
If I can draw an analogy from chess. When I play chess against the computer there is a setting on the computer called “Deep Thinking”. This deep thinking setting makes the computer capable of seeing many moves ahead and strategizing more effectively than I seem to be able to. When set at its highest or even middle highest setting, I find the computer almost impossible to beat. I can’t see how a move now, will translate into advantage later on for the computer. I often wonder if the revelations received, or not received, enter into God’s ability to see farther ahead, and seem nonsensical to me — precisely because he can see farther than I can.
Who knows. I believe that no amount of research is likely to turn up the variables we can can influence to ensure that God consistently gives us what we want in prayer. Nor can it uncover why some people get revelation and others can’t.
I’ve also been dumped in this fashion. Luckily we had only been dating for a few dates so it wasn’t earth shattering. I think that this comes from two things:
1) That we push marriage so hard (and marriage prep. and finding the right companion etc.) that LDS YSA’s are asking themselves, “is he/she good marriage material?” before the first date even begins. There are both costs and benefits to this approach, but it is what it is.
2) That we are taught about personal revelation. I never asked God what college I should attend or industry I should enter or whether or not to take my first big career job – but I prayed for weeks as to whether or not my current wife was a good selection.
One thing that is interesting is that there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between happy marriages and divine prayer confirmation. In fact, one interesting theory posits that sometimes God gives the prayer confirmation because He knows that reliance on that divine confirmation may be the only thing that will keep the couple together through the dark times ahead.
wayfarer wrote:i went out a lot, and diversified my portfolio with lots of experience.
I like this phrase. I’m gonna start using it.🙂 wayfarer wrote:but for me, personally, given that i was devastated by what appeared to be god’s rejection of me…so even if the event was iver, and i reject, today, the idea that gd rejected me, the event still affects me.
I’m not sure what “iver” is.At first it felt like I was rejected by God. That was hard. “What was wrong with me?” I thought. “Why would I be so bad that God had to warn a girl to stay away from me?” I really didn’t understand. I did find something encouraging in the belief that God had someone better waiting for me, a girl who was an even better match for me and who was even more beautiful. But I don’t believe that anymore. There may be other women that I may find, but I no longer feel I have good reasons believe that God will lead me to them.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I also always felt insecure around him, and he was a moody SOB besides (which I found far too attractive for my own good.)
This is one of the reasons I sometimes consider giving up looking for a wife and consider a typical college promiscuous lifestyle. I have a lot going for me and have quite an interesting life, but I don’t havethe rightthings going for me. The fact that women are wildly attracted to badly-behaving men who are all wrong for them and are bored by well-behaved men who would be good for them is one of the main reasons I stopped believing that God created us. Why would God create women that way? SilentDawning wrote:I believe that no amount of research is likely to turn up the variables we can can influence to ensure that God consistently gives us what we want in prayer. Nor can it uncover why some people get revelation and others can’t.
I was surprised to hear a few other stories like mine. I suppose that the full truth may never be known as to how real some of these revelations were. I wanted this thread to be about revelation, selective revelation, and the love and justice of God. Or the neurological nature of revelation and the non-involvement of God. SD, I find your comment to be both true and discouraging, which I’ll just have to live with.“iver” should be “over”. Quote:The fact that women are wildly attracted to badly-behaving men who are all wrong for them and are bored by well-behaved men who would be good for them is one of the main reasons I stopped believing that God created us. Why would God create women that way?
He didn’t. He created a world in which we are born subject to our mortal natures – and only SOME women fit the description above. Some (the majority, I’m sure) don’t.
In my defense, the well behaved ones weren’t asking me out at that time, but I did ultimately marry a well behaved one for that reason. I wanted to marry someone who was my friend first and who was as interested in me as in himself. Young single me, OTOH, had this dumb idea that depression indicated depth, at least in men who were so often unemotional. If one has no emotion that is actually a sign of depression. The bit of emotion felt could be caused by anxiety. I’ll give the more blunt and hard advice: You dodged a bullet, my brother. I’m sure you felt a lot for her. I can totally understand how hard it was to be rejected. I don’t think I would want to be married to a woman that made such huge decisions with so many consequences based on unconscious fears and dramatic personal revelation like that.
God doesn’t have a very good track record with those predictions IMO, to be quite honest.
Finding a new girlfriend or wife is a numbers game — gotta get out there and meet lots and lots of people. Don’t wait for God to create a rainbow in the sky pointing you to the magic one-and-only soul mate. It might be a long wait…
Brian Johnston wrote:I’ll give the more blunt and hard advice: You dodged a bullet, my brother.
I’m sure you felt a lot for her. I can totally understand how hard it was to be rejected. I don’t think I would want to be married to a woman that made such huge decisions with so many consequences based on unconscious fears and dramatic personal revelation like that.
God doesn’t have a very good track record with those predictions IMO, to be quite honest.
Finding a new girlfriend or wife is a numbers game — gotta get out there and meet lots and lots of people. Don’t wait for God to create a rainbow in the sky pointing you to the magic one-and-only soul mate. It might be a long wait…
amen and amen. I call it “Diversifying your portfolio…” Just don’t do it after you get married…Been thinking about this over the past week. My heart hurts for you just thinking about this. Yeah, there are a lot of worse things that can happen to people, but a broken heart just plain sucks. Top that off with intimations that this was really the hand of god effectively stabbing you in the back, and, well … I don’t know how I would deal with that. I guess I think that this kind of thing happens in all cultures, and while someone else might refer to it as getting cold feet or whatever, we have to invoke God … because that’s what we do. It’s how we process the randomness of the world that would otherwise be so scary. It’s an unfortunate fact that we don’t consider the consequences, as your post so clearly demonstrates.
Brian Johnston wrote:I’ll give the more blunt and hard advice: You dodged a bullet, my brother.
Maybe, maybe not. I think we’re all victims when we adopt this world view and I’d like to bet that she suffered from the experience as well.The rest of Brian’s advice was right on the money, though.
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