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hawkgrrrl wrote:
1) I don’t believe there is a “the one” for anyone. People can be happy with many different choices, some are better than others
I’m wondering how this paradigm would have worked during the polygamy era . . .
Girl #1: She’s the
oneGirl #2: She’s also the one!
Girl #3: Uh-uh, she’s
notthe one! (or one of the ones? 🙂 )Girl #4: She can be one of “the one” too!
Each of these was, of course “confirmed!”
How many “ones” do I have now?
😆 Sorry, I thought this would be Mormon humor that only we would get! I at least thought it funny myself!
:crazy: 😆 :clap: 😆 :clap: 😆 :clap: 😆 :clap: Instead of looking at it as God rejecting you as a potential husband just look at it as something where, for whatever reason God stepped in because he has a sense that this girl wasn’t right for you or your future. i have had two premonitions after i married that my marriages were doomed to fail.
we have to use our intuition when we date and prayer can be that last step we take to decide whether to continue or not in a dating relationship.
as Hawkgirl pointed out we might be too inexperienced or just too dumb to be intuitive in our dating decision making.
i had one experience where i felt God wanted me to marry a certain someone and in the end it just caused or lead to highly unpleasant social situations at church that lead me to a faith crisis.
I’m not really sure where all these people are who are looking for their soul mate. Maybe it’s more of a girl thing. I’ve had many RM roommates, and none of them have ever said to me that the were looking for their soul mate. They pursued women as best they could with varying degrees of success. I actually thought that the idea was dead in Mormon culture because I have never heard any of my peers- male or female- mention it. The only people who talk about soul mates are religion and institute teachers, and they mention it when they are trying to repudiate the idea. Yes, God has a pretty poor track record in making predictions about who people will marry and whether or not people will have a happy marriage. Maybe it was best that I not marry that girl. Maybe I dodged a bullet. Maybe she and I would have been happy. I don’t have any answers for those questions. But I do know that after three years of me dating and working hard to find someone else, I am alone and she is married. I don’t think that I can believe anyone who says “I want to thank God for my wonderful wife/husband/fiancee.” Why would God give spouses to some and not to others? Why would God sentence someone to a life of celibacy while selecting others to experience marital bliss (or hell, whatever it is, I’m not really sure, because I’ve never been married)? I’m moving towards a biological (rather than metaphysical) explanation for why some people seem to be luckier than others in matters of love and marriage. The explanations from geneticists and evolutionary psychologists are making a lot of sense on this topic, while the view that God is the allocator of all marital blessings is confusing and problematic.
I have two female friends who believed that it was revealed to them who their husband would be. They were both wrong. One of the men in question is married to someone else now and the other one said he would never again want to date the girl who thought she had a revelation that she would marry him. If divine revelation really does exist, it appears to be far too indistinct from our own emotions for us to be able to identify it, especially when people are smitten by strong feelings of love or infatuation. It’s just impossible to tell the difference if there is a difference.
One of the reasons I hang on to this experience with this girl is that it’s one of maybe two experiences I have that give me a decent reason to believe in God, or that there is some supernatural power greater than humans. But maybe I was wrong, and this experience is not a good one on which to base a belief in the existence of God.
InqMind – I think the belief in soul mates was false doctrine perpetuated by Saturday’s Warrior. I only just recently saw the Saturday’s Warrior DVD. It was at the public library ironically. Just think of the reactions normal people would have it they had randomly picked that DVD up 😯 or:crazy: or😆 or:sick: I have met plenty of people who actually do believe in the ideas of Saturday’s Warrior. Everything is destiny and we made promises to certain people in the pre mortal life. Our families were put together and chosen before we were even born.
I agree that all this is false doctrine. Pre planned families, promises, fate and destiny are all in direct conflict with agency.
IMO, the romance of courting potential mates or marriage relationships is largely a modern invention to sell greetings cards and tickets to romantic comedy movies. Take a look backwards 100 years in western culture, or look at a modern culture that still does arranged marriages. People more often got married for extremely practical reasons … and romance was a perk when it happened. There wasn’t so much the concept of finding the 1 person in billions that was your magical destiny from the gods. It was more like this: there were 2 dozen other single people of the opposite sex within a couple days walking distance. That was your pool of choices. Pick one. 
The fireworks wear off. It takes effort and mutual agreement to make it all work after that. I’ve been married 22 years. The dear wife tolerates me still, most days. That’s true love
😆 My vote is on the bologna side. With cheese. First, my heart goes out to you. I know what it feels like when you have “evidence” that you are one of God’s second class citizens. My experience was not on the getting dumped side, but I have had much experience of being thrust back into hell over and over because it was better for someone else. You do start to think “and what am I? Chopped liver?” As GreenApples said, I think she is hiding behind God. Classic Mormon move. Some Mormons know they are doing it, some don’t. They have a subconscious wish that for what ever reason they are not comfortable with or don’t want to take ownership of and God makes a convenient scapegoat.
InquiringMind wrote:We went back to my apartment, and after about a minute of being there, she said she felt something was wrong. I looked around the apartment and everything was normal. I looked at her, and she looked like she felt sick. Seriously, she looked
bad.Her feelings of sickness continued, and we decided to leave and take a walk. We took a walk around Provo, and at the end of the walk, she still felt ill. So I dropped her off at her apartment and went home. … I don’t think that this girl was lying to me about receiving a revelation to dump me, and a mutual friend of me and this girl confirmed that this girl’s revelation was quite genuine. It probably was a real experience for her. I doubt she was consciously making it up. But subconscious things are very powerful and most people have ZERO connection with what is going on down there in that dark and symbolic place. Probably something cued some bad feelings, but I highly doubt it was God. Maybe it was something at the show, or something she saw on the way home. For whatever reason, she had an anxiety attack. I have had them, triggered by seemingly nothing, and I wouldn’t say I suffer from anxiety. Once every few years maybe, other than that I am normally very stable. But people can’t accept the “triggered by nothing” part– including me. We always look for reasons. The truth is, she probably had been having some doubts about you. (Sorry.
As far as feeling like you were getting along perfectly great, and not seeing her having doubts… I will just say this. For both of my husbands I was the perfect wife for them. If they made a check mark list to crossed T’s and dotted I’s, it would fit me. I was totally the right woman for each of them. But they were not the right guys for me. There were some needs I could get met, and some times I chose to concentrate on the things that made me happy (even when they were almost non-existent.) If you were to ask them how I felt, they would have been absolutely shocked that I was not 100% completely happy. In fact, if they knew the truth of how positively miserable I was with them, they would not believe it. They had no clue at all. I am not saying you are bad in any way. Probably the unhappiness she felt wasn’t even all that apparent to her at that time. She might not even have known what it was that she needed/wanted. I am just trying to illustrate that sometimes even in very close relationships, we project our happiness onto the other person. We see what we want to see. And as a result, if she was having doubts she never spoke up about, you would probably remain clueless about them. Also, she probably did not want to break up with you, she probably did have real feelings for you, and after all that time invested with you. It is quite normal to feel that way when abandoning a relationship, even when you know you should or many parts of you wants to.
In my dating-after-my-first-divorce stage, there were multiple men I met who had the “revelation” that they should marry me. And there were sooo many reasons why that was so off base. And through my life I have met very, very many divorced people whose marriages make Dante’s Inferno look like Disneyland… and these people struggle so much because they all said they had very perfect and clear revelation that they should marry that person. I have seen people struggle with revelations of other types after reality unfolds, including me, because the revelation when held up to the events of life and time were wrong. I have come to the opinion that it’s all bologna. The prayers that are answered in this way are really just a reflection of our subconscious, and it’s wants and fears. if you are pretty stable mentally and emotionally and don’t have many scars and past hurts that get in the way, these subconscious communiqué can lead you in the right direction. The subconscious sees the things you don’t in your conscious mind and it knows if that person is not the best for you. On the flip side, if you have mental or emotional issues, deep hurts and scars, your subconscious is not so functional. It goes about trying to repair its hurts in very ineffective ways, often going against what the conscious mind would want. This is where people like me get into trouble and we choose bad people trying to fix childhood hurts that can’t be fixed in that way. Then, any communique from the subconscious is not to be trusted.
Try not to feel too bad anymore. You have beat yourself up enough. I agree with Brian. You don’t want to be tied to someone who gets thrust around like a yo-yo on the whims of her subconscious and then uses the “but God told me to do it” excuse. It can lead to very bad life experiences. I do not think it was God who thought you were less. I know when you have a broken heart it’s easy to feel you are broken. Just try to remember that just because you didn’t fit her puzzle piece needs that does not mean you are deficient.
Just keep swimming…just keep swimming… -Dori “Finding Nemo”
greenapples wrote:I only just recently saw the Saturday’s Warrior DVD. It was at the public library ironically. Just think of the reactions normal people would have it they had randomly picked that DVD up
😯 or:crazy: or😆 or:sick: I have met plenty of people who actually do believe in the ideas of Saturday’s Warrior. Everything is destiny and we made promises to certain people in the pre mortal life. Our families were put together and chosen before we were even born.
I agree that all this is false doctrine. Pre planned families, promises, fate and destiny are all in direct conflict with agency.
In my generation, pretty much everyone raised in the church believes exactly that crap… as doctrine. I never saw the video growing up but was taught all that stuff as doctrine in Sunday school etc. It was very much perpetuated. I think that this kind of crap causes many many faith struggles, and people DON’T KNOW it’s not doctrine. We have been hearing it all our Mormon lives! Anyway, finally watched the video a couple of years ago at FHE. That video should be burned. 1-The false doctrine it teaches can really mess people up and 2-As a Mormon I am completely embarrassed by it. Let’s make a parody of it… Oh wait, it already seems like a parody… no one would be able to tell which is the original!
I think that in my generation the idea of soul mates has been replaced by “The List.” It seems that almost every girl I knew started this list when they were beehives of all the traits their perfect husband would have. As they got older they just added more and more things to the list. I heard of Bishops and YW leaders promising that if they made their list they would find the right guy who satisfied everything on their list. I think this can create problems because 1) it objectifies potential spouses, 2) it sets up unrealistic expectations, and 3) it takes our already complicated idea of romantic love and makes things inflexible.
When my wife and I were getting our temple recommends to be sealed (in 2005), my stake president actually brought up Saturday’s Warrior. He talked about how wonderful it was, but admitted that there were some doctrinal errors. My response was, “So you’re saying it’s a good movie, except for that one bad part?”
Inquiringmind,
Getting dumped stinks, and people get dumped for all kinds of reasons. There’s a lot of randomness in dating.
I agree with Brian that you dodged a bullet. I thought it was a little odd that she would bring up a revelation for the reason for breaking up with you. If I had an intense spiritual experience that led me to end a relationship I wouldn’t bring it up. I would just end the relationship. Some people aren’t confident enough to make their own decisions and outsource everything to God.
On a less serious note, I’m a pessi-optimist. If I can dream up a worse situation than what I’m living, I feel better. If I were in your shoes I would tell myself, “At least the Spirit didn’t tell her to chop off my head, put on my clothes, go to my apartment and steal my stuff.”
So, is there a mutual belief here that her “revelation” was more human caused than divinely issued? It seems clear from the OP that SHE believed it came from the source, but there are those who have posted who seem skeptical that it was God who was the one who actually told her to do “the dumping” for a myriad of reasons they provided including being her unconscious manifesting itself in her actions, working according to commonly-held Mormon cultural mores, having too high of expectations, physical manifestation of a purely emotional reaction to a certain stimulus that could be explained physiologically, etc. But I want to shift attention back to the “issue” that brought her (and us) here. Was it revelation that she received? People in history have had problems or accepted “revelation” depending on many factors:
- It is/it is not convenient
It goes against/confirms something I already believed/wanted to believe/did not believe
How “revolutionary” or counter-established norms it is (does it break Tevye’s “TRADITION!”?)
How it affects the majority/the minority/individual
Of course, this is simply the “practical” side of believing a revelation is genuine. These do not factor in the belief state of the person encountering the “revelation” and deciding for themselves whether it passes their personal test. Revelations have been quoted throughout the history of the world for charting new (sometimes good, sometimes destructive) paths through people’s lives and have been used to justify both ultimately uplifting and horribly inhumane things. No question – people everywhere, no matter the religious affiliation, believe SOMEONE received some kind of revelation, inspiration, insight, or whatever you want to call it.
So, did it happen here? It certainly wasn’t “popular” for at least one of those affected. One seemed quite sure of the source, the other not as sure. It was life changing. These are frequent results when any “revelation” is claimed to be received by one person, but only one can claim the originating experience for themselves (cannot be corroborated). From outward appearance, it could sound like that is what happened here, but many do not believe it was a bona fide revelation.
It sounds very subjective to me, and not the best basis for revealing “truth” to specific people when others cannot (by design) have the same experience. It seems more an emotional base than an objective one. How does one judge? Was this an example of “personal revelation” or “personal- personal revelation (a.k.a. self-fulfilling prophecy)?” Can one outside of the “revelator” know?
I have no idea if it was revelation from God or not. I could believe either version, but there is absolutely no way for me to know. However, given my belief that we really are divine and “gods” (that the kingdom of God really is within and among us), I do think unequivocally that it was “revelation” to, for or from her. That’s enough for me, so I believe strongly she was “right” to do what she did – no matter the objective source of the action.
In the Young Men’s program with both ideas of soul mate and the list. Realistically in either case anyone can make a self fulfilled prophecy to make their boyfriend/girlfriend be
THEONE!The list can be altered. Even if the list isn’t altered S/HE could easily say good enough for certain ideal traits and place a check in the box.
RagDollSallyUT wrote:It probably was a real experience for her. I doubt she was consciously making it up. But subconscious things are very powerful…Probably something cued some bad feelings, but I highly doubt it was God… For whatever reason, she had an anxiety attack…Maybe she didn’t even consciously know which doubts she was having and why. One anxiety attack, seeking reasons for it, finding some excuses, God takes the fall, and you are out in the cold. I am so sorry, That sucks.
…I have come to the opinion that it’s all bologna. The prayers that are answered in this way are really just a reflection of our subconscious, and it’s wants and fears.
I think that this is the best solution to this puzzle. I accepted her experience as revelation for a long time, then I started to question it. Now I think that I finally have a good explanation, and the explanation does not involve any direct revelation and instruction from God. Thanks for explaining the unexplained.I was her first boyfriend, and when things were starting to get a little serious with us, it seems natural that she would get scared and nervous. Perhaps she had some doubts about me and perhaps she wasn’t ready to leave the single lifestyle. So she had some kind of anxiety attack because of her anxieties, and the experience was powerful enough to seem like a revelation from God, so she thought it was a revelation from God, as many (but not all) TBMs would do. So she did what any reasonable person who believed that they’d received a powerful revelation of that sort would do- she dumped me.
So her “revelation” was probably just her own feelings. I can’t know what happened with absolute certainty, but I think that is the best explanation. It’s both very relieving and deeply unsettling. It’s relieving because I don’t have to wonder why God loved and cared about her so much more than me and why God would make sure she found the right person while leaving me out in the cold. It’s unsettling because it demonstrates how easy it is for people to mistake their own feelings for revelation from God. It also reiterates for me the reality that there is a good chance that we are all on our own in this life, at least in the sense that no divine being is making sure that the chips fall the right way for people and no special divine safety net exists in this life for the faithful and obedient.
Earl Parsons wrote:I think that in my generation the idea of soul mates has been replaced by “The List.”
It seems that almost every girl I knew started this list when they were beehives of all the traits their perfect husband would have. As they got older they just added more and more things to the list. I heard of Bishops and YW leaders promising that if they made their list they would find the right guy who satisfied everything on their list. I think this can create problems because 1) it objectifies potential spouses, 2) it sets up unrealistic expectations, and 3) it takes our already complicated idea of romantic love and makes things inflexible.
I agree. I admit that in the past my list (written or mental) has contained a number of trivial items that have now been removed. I bet that I get immediately disqualified by at least half the women I meet because I’m shorter than 6’3″ and don’t have a motorcycle. I posted about this in another thread: it seems to me that the high expectations YM/YW and YSAs are given for their future spouse is largely a retention effort- the promise of an ideal spouse in exchange for obedience and activity in the Church. A few people do get that smokin’ hot girl or guy, but I’d wager that it isn’t always the most obedient person who winds up with them, and everyone else is left to try to puzzle out what happened.Earl Parsons wrote:On a less serious note, I’m a pessi-optimist. If I can dream up a worse situation than what I’m living, I feel better. If I were in your shoes I would tell myself, “At least the Spirit didn’t tell her to chop off my head, put on my clothes, go to my apartment and steal my stuff.”
Thanks for this, I laughed out loud😆 wjclerk wrote:So, is there a mutual belief here that her “revelation” was more human caused than divinely issued? It seems clear from the OP that SHE believed it came from the source, but there are those who have posted who seem skeptical that it was God who was the one who actually told her to do “the dumping” for a myriad of reasons they provided including being her unconscious manifesting itself in her actions, working according to commonly-held Mormon cultural mores, having too high of expectations, physical manifestation of a purely emotional reaction to a certain stimulus that could be explained physiologically, etc. But I want to shift attention back to the “issue” that brought her (and us) here. Was it revelation that she received?…
It sounds very subjective to me, and not the best basis for revealing “truth” to specific people when others cannot (by design) have the same experience. It seems more an emotional base than an objective one. How does one judge? Was this an example of “personal revelation” or “personal- personal revelation (a.k.a. self-fulfilling prophecy)?” Can one outside of the “revelator” know?
This is what I was trying to get at, and I think that a good answer has been reached.Brian Johnston wrote:IMO, the romance of courting potential mates or marriage relationships is largely a modern invention to sell greetings cards and tickets to romantic comedy movies. Take a look backwards 100 years in western culture, or look at a modern culture that still does arranged marriages. People more often got married for extremely practical reasons … and romance was a perk when it happened.
I’ve done a little research on the history of courtship, and the practice of “dating” grew out of urbanization and the industrial revolution in the late 19th Century. The word “date” as we use it in this context doesn’t appear in print until the second half of the 19th Century. Dating as we know it is a recent invention, and for thousands of years men and women have found each other, gotten married, and had children just fine without the practice of dating.I love Ray’s answer: Quote:I have no idea if it was revelation from God or not. I could believe either version, but there is absolutely no way for me to know. However, given my belief that we really are divine and “gods” (that the kingdom of God really is within and among us), I do think unequivocally that it was “revelation” to, for or from her.
This to me is a big part of understanding Stage 5 – your authority coming from within, not just external. Anyway, I thought it needed a shout out.
On the Saturday’s Warrior, there was one prominent family in my home ward so invested in its version of the Plan of Salvation that they would actually quote it as if it was scripture. My reply was along the lines of “Are you mental?? It’s false doctrine! We don’t believe in pre-destination.” But there was absolutely no convincing them.
- It is/it is not convenient
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