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http://brucefey.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-feeling-that-church-history-has.html?spref=fb This has a good synopsis of the various issues… some new info for me…maybe for the old timers it is all old news. It uses a lot of Pro-LDS websites (FAIR, Church newsroom) or references
Wow Johnh – you are a follower of Bruce’s. I knew Bruce in my teens, we grew up in the same stake. Cool. I actually just stumbled on to him tonight…but he seems pretty darn fair in his arguments Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2
Reading all of that in a row again, even from a faithful member with fair links, makes me feel like a blinkered dupe. Or maybe even a muppet! The FAIR excuse about the gold plates translation painting (boohoohoo, the painting wasn’t correlated) is annoying. If missionaries showed pictures of how it really happened, everyone would run screaming. Why not just admit it?
Having said that… I want to be able to believe that certain scriptural accounts are allegorical, not factual (Eden/Adam & Eve/Noah’s flood etc). Perhaps I need to let the church have their allegories too in order to teach a principle.
– There were Gold Plates
– Joseph dictated the words he believed through inspiration
– Oliver transcribed them
Now… how can we depict idea that all in one picture.Hmm… dose of cog dis again…
mackay11 wrote:
The FAIR excuse about the gold plates translation painting (boohoohoo, the painting wasn’t correlated) is annoying. If missionaries showed pictures of how it really happened, everyone would run screaming. Why not just admit it?
I wish we could focus on the personal experience of revelation instead of the mechanics. Some people may best experience revelation while stretched out face down on their bed, that image wouldn’t go over much better than a face in a hat but when you focus on the personal experience is it really any different? Humans are just strange all the way around. Does it really matter that we happen to be more comfortable with our societal norms than those of some native jungle tribe?
Oh the ironies in life! I just stumbled across his blog this morning (prior to reading this post). Very well thought out post! The article I posted I think his it on the nose.. If the church started with the story of a guy seeing Christ then feeling the power of his inspiring him to write the allegorical story of a people then there would likely be few problems. The mechanics would not matter….you could then say “for Joseph he put his face in his hat and started at a rock to get his mind in the right place to receive gods will. This was how he could focus “
But the active propagation of the mechanics as part of the history, the insistence on Leal belief and then saying believe it all out none of it..don’t be a slack jawed cafeteria Mormon slacker.
Now people’s critical thinking skills kick in…first thought…if Joseph didn’t look at them then why the hell did he need to get them? Did he make that part up? Why the quirky differences with the first vision…then use it to enforce doctrinal views..
They literally have made it impossible, without a lot of mental calisthenics to buy in if you are a critical thinker…which is why many are here…we are trying to learn how to be existentialist thinkers…even when the church says knock it off
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I liked this post. It was information I already knew but he had it well written and organized. I wish that it was required reading for all the church members. They wouldn’t have to agree with all of it (and that’s the beauty of it) but they would at least be aware of the issues and maybe understand were others are coming from. I really appreciated the part about many people wanting the truth. I rather have the truth and dealing with that than feeling like I have been lied to my whole church life. Just like I rather have my kids tell me what they did wrong than lie to me. I can deal with mistakes pretty well, but I don’t like cover ups. What ever happened to” the glory of God is intelligence” and ” the truth shall set you free”?
Yes it is a problem. It will take some time for the general membership to become familiar with it all. johnh wrote:…we are trying to learn how to be existentialist thinkers…even when the church says knock it off
Some people in the church say knock it off, perhaps the majority and yes even leaders — but for our personal sanity and framing our position for continued activity I think it is helpful to differentiate between what members say and what the gospel is. It is really nice when we’re thrown a carrot like Elder Uchtdorf’s recent talk that promotes individual seeking and thinking.
The Church’s top leadership doesn’t say to knock that off. Lots of members (including leaders) do, but the leadership doesn’t. It’s an important distinction to make.
church0333 wrote:…I rather have the truth and dealing with that than feeling like I have been lied to my whole church life. Just like I rather have my kids tell me what they did wrong than lie to me. I can deal with mistakes pretty well,
but I don’t like cover ups. This.
Yup, the cover-up is almost always worse. It bothers me that apologetic types say it’s not hidden. It is not taught in church/seminary/institute, it is not in plain site and it only exists as an occasional reference in talks/articles and mostly in the distant past. This leads to the shock and discomfort from many who discover it in a negative context. It isn’t hidden: it can be easily found on any number for anti-mormon websites that you are a sinner for looking at. Exactly. So now the is guilty of the sin of Omission and the Anti’s have the truth I wonder why the first emotion most of us felt was a sense of betrayal
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