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or the original routes almost killed the Church in its infancy and new routes are the only way to continue the journey There certainly are things that bother me about some of the routes being suggested, but I would pay my life’s savings to avoid the routes my pioneer ancestors took.
DBMormon wrote:mackay11 wrote:DBMormon wrote:When Joseph was with his brother Hyrum and other leaders , Hyrum asked Joseph to tell everyone how the BOM was translated. He said it was not for the world to know.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1997/01/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng
Cough, cough, cough.
Perhaps there’s a principle in that. It would probably be better if we had no idea at all how it happened, just turned up with a book one day.
Unfortunately Joseph didn’t reckon on avid historians pouring through eyewitness journals and the advent of the internet to piece it all together.
Reality is that we have a better than perhaps Joseph ever intended. Now that the cat is out of the bag, the church needs to deal with it and get on with it. Or they can bury their head in the hat (sorry… sand) and hope the majority don’t look into it too much.
What do you see as the problem with how the translation occurred that is damaging to you? While I agree the Church is not anxious to shout seer stones from rooftops but I don’t see how the seer stone version is any less miraculous. I am curious of your thoughts
Because through most of my early faith crisis, the Book of Mormon was my rock solid foundation.
The more I realise it could be out of his head/hat, the harder it becomes to stay.
Much as I try to convince myself otherwise, if the book of mormon is an 19th C creation (even an inspired one) the less likely I think staying will be.
Head in hat isn’t the only issue, but it’s one of many. And the list seems to grow.
DBMormon wrote:eman wrote:By the way, I tend to lean towards the plates being a tool JS devised to foster faith from others. It just seems to me that for JS the ends justified the means.
While some evidence leads one to see it in that light, there is also a lot of evidence that says something outside of that perceived paradigm is occuring. For it to be a hoax, it has to be perhaps the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind which also makes it highly unlikely. Either way it is a stretch to make the facts fit any one particular view. So I see it as being what he claimed it was as just as likely as he fabricated plates and conned Sidney Rigdon into having part in the D&C 76, made cowdery feel he was really being ordained by angelic visitors, make Harris sign over the farm, have cowdery see Jesus in the Kirtland Temple, make the witnesses hold to their testimony despite their disaffection….. Produce a chapter long chiasism in Alma 36, and a 100 others… when added up together, fabrication also becomes unlikely
If it was a hoax then Cowdery was in on it. His role in the 1830s church was very prominent. If it was a hoax why would he stay quiet after being ex’d? Shamed if he did, shamed if he didn’t.
I also have an issue with chiasmus in light of a ‘loose’ translation being needed for large parts.
eman wrote:I’m missing something. I seem to remember the ark being where they kept the 10 commandments… Regardless, JS seemed to do okay in receiving the book of Moses without plates. And if the purpose of the plates was to inspire faith, why only in JS and a dozen others? Couldn’t the presence of the plates have inspired faith in countless others? I don’t know. I guess in keeping with the purpose of this site, believing the plates existed and were a catalyst of faith is a better explanation than all the inconsistencies of a fake set or falsified testimonies.
This might have been answered already, but I’m halfway through reading the thread.
The Book of Moses is one of the big chunks of the JST of Genesis and is a more detailed account of ‘what was said next’ after the burning bush event.
I’m surprised more isn’t made of it as it has some impressive parallels to some ancient documents, including an old Hebrew one (Apocalypse of Abraham) that didn’t exist in English until 1898 when the church realised what the implications were and translated it for the improvement era (by way of evidence).
Little scraps like that keep me going…
DBMormon wrote:johnh wrote:Hey Hawkgrrrl
But the years of claiming it as anti mormon propaganda, covering up, sanitizing, then mix that with changing doctrines like tithing to help pay for leaders bumbles and then stopping full disclosure to hide those bumbles then pushing a culture of “shut up and follow the bretheren” creates a situation like the church is seeing now.
The church didn’t call it anti mormon propaganda. Bad apoligists and uninformed defensive members did.
Didn’t Elder Uchtdorf warn of the crazies in print, online and with strong following and compare them to the loons who believe some celebs are aliens.
Reality is, the church has no official source to fully discuss these things. There are titbits in ensigns occasionally but they have generally run away from it.
The correlation movement in the 70s and 80s might well bite them in the 2010s and 2020s.
DBMormon wrote:I also don’t see the church stretching the truth on most occasions, but rather retracting it. Only sharing 10% of the story, the basic faithful facts and leaving the troubling stuff out. The new Testament also does the same. As well as the old testament, as well as the Book of Mormon, and for that matter my journal, or the american history books. In fact it seems we all tell the story in a way as to help readers come to the conclusion we want them to including the critics. That is human, and the church is ran by humans…. so why expect any different? Were the israelites without drama becasuse they had moses the prophet leading them? were Jesus’ disciples reassured at every turn and by his side on every step because he was always making faith easier… contrary…. faith when worked on will be a virtue that must be chased. Faith is hard and it is meant to be so.
Very true. If you were to read my letters home during my mission they were not a full reflection of what actually happened. There were no lies in my letters home… I just wanted them to promote faith, help my parents feel good about their part in the financial support and encourage my younger brothers on a mission.
It excluded the days playing Risk due to sheer demotivation, the elders who had a fist fight, setting our apartment on fire, having frequent ‘double date’ situations with two beautiful 17-18yo girls who were barely ‘investigators’ (nothing happened…), the elder who had a porno deck of playing cards, the elder who was an artist and would draw naked women on request… and mine was considered an obedient mission. You should have heard the rumours from over the border!
Those stories don’t even exist in my journal. This might be their first time in writing. Other than that they will live and die in my head because, unlike Joseph, I don’t have an army of saints and critics following me around writing (subjective) memoirs about me.
Unfortunately the whole blog has been deleted. Did anyone take a copy of the post before it was deleted? It looks like it was active until last month. I’ll see if I can find something else. The Internet archive or google cache might still have it. I wonder what lead him to delete it. He approached with a fairly faithful attitude. Maybe he’s had a tap on the digital shoulder. Or maybe he’s just decided to get rid of what might have been a stumbling block for some.
I know that sometimes I hesitate to raise a question or historical issue as I don’t want it to lead to someone else on the other side of the works losing their faith on my account.
what are we looking for? What site is no longer up? DBMormon wrote:what are we looking for? What site is no longer up?
This blog that was linked to in the initial post:
http://brucefey.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-feeling-that-church-history-has.html?spref=fb
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