- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
My name is James. The unraveling of my long-held belief system started a while ago, but has been intensified in the last few years, and especially the last few months.
The straw that broke the camel’s proverbial back was the church’s online statement about its history with blacks and the priesthood, posted last month. It just sent me over the edge, to a point where I have, over the past week or so, gradually deconstructed virtually everything I thought I knew about the church and my belief system.
Who are these supposed “prophets” and what is their real role for us in our lives? Does modern revelation, in the “man standing on the watchtower” sense really exist in our day? My initial reaction is that the church leaders today are not actually leading the church. Not the way the prophets of old led it, as far as I can tell by the scriptures. Prophets of old said “Thus saith the Lord” and were the literal mouthpiece of God. I do not recognize that mouthpiece function today. I see incredibly flawed men who rely on really crappy public relations strategies in order to keep members of the church faithful tithe payers and temple goers and home teachers.
Do I sustain the prophets, as it asks in the temple recommend interview? I really don’t know that anymore. And what exactly does it say about the system of our church that the fact that I’m not sure if I’m “worthy” of a piece of paper sitting in my wallet makes me question my relationship with God, as if he cares that much about a piece of paper based on a profession of loyalty to MEN, not HIM.
I read Matthew 23 and it so perfectly describes what I see so much of in our church leaders, and what I have seen so much of in my various callings. Straining at gnats while swallowing camels.
So why am I here, on this forum? Because I have a beautiful, compassionate, but very frightened wife and two beautiful, amazing but young children. And I know that my decisions don’t just impact me. They impact our whole family. What does it mean to navigate a faith crisis while you are bound to people who do not share that crisis with you? Can I reconcile my deep, haunting concerns with my desire to still support my wife in her church attendance? What does that mean for our children and what they are taught? I think of them singing what seems now to be the incredibly hypocritical “Follow the Prophet” primary song and I shudder to think they are being systematically conditioned the same way I was growing up.
I don’t have all the answers. Which is exactly why I am here. To commune with a group of saints and sinners and humans who think the way I do and who (I can only surmise by reading other posts) will welcome me, as the Savior would, with open arms.
With love.
Welcome James. Your story is common here. There are many who have a spouse who remains all-in with the Church. Mine is still faithful and active. My faith transition began long ago (Bill Clinton era). We’ve been able to make it work. You mentioned that she is ‘frightened’. That’s a great way to put it and would have been an appropriate description for how my wife felt, too. Some important concepts that have helped me: – As long as she has faith in the Church, I support her. It is her faith, not mine and I would not want to force her to relinquish for my own convenience.
– I established quickly that I wasn’t going to stop loving her or being a good person. It’s a real fear, and it is completely and totally understandable. The bottom has dropped out from under you. You don’t know where you will wind up. Imagine being in her shoes. She has even less of an idea of where you are taking this. Reassure her. Make sure she knows that your love for her and for your family remains the most important thing in your life and that you are not giving it up. If it seems obvious to you, that’s a good sign, because I’ve known plenty of people who have ended in divorce after something like this.
– When you still have a spouse that remains faithful, it puts some burden on you. You can’t really leave the Church in the glorious fashion that you might want to and still be fair to her. You will need to find the good in the Church. That’s not always easy, but it gets easier when you start to recognize that people are just doing what they believe to be right. You referred to the “incredibly flawed” leaders of the Church. I agree that they are flawed, but I wouldn’t say incredibly so. Truth be told, I think the Church is full of really good leaders, both at the top, and at the local levels, that are better people than I am. They can make mistakes, sure, but they are hardworking, faithful, honest, and good people (vast majority).
– I have found that it works for me not to get into doctrinal discussions with her. The only purpose that would serve is to convince her that she is wrong. I am always respectful of the Church, because it is ‘her’ Church. I will discuss cultural concerns, but not matters of faith.
Welcome! Sometimes the “indoctrination” bugs me too. Our ward has a problem where fast sunday all the kidos go up and testify of the things they “know” (as their parent whispers in their ear). On the bright side I have an opportunity to increase my will power and patience. 
So, the latest items posted on LDS.org have not increased your faiths and settled your mind? It hasn’t for me either. Like mentioned, our stories are very similar and now I find myself dreading Sundays because I attend but many of the talks and most of the lessons upset me much more than uplift me. But my wife want me to go and I feel I have a duty to go and I like many of the people. I have been in ward and stake leadership my whole time since moving here 15 years ago. In the last year I have been more opened to expressing some of my thoughts and I have felt a sense distrust from many of the most conservative members but I have also been approached by others because they have the same thoughts but are to afraid to say them in public. It sound like you will fit in here very well and I can assure you that this is a safe place to express your ideas and thoughts.
Quote:So why am I here, on this forum? Because I have a beautiful, compassionate, but very frightened wife and two beautiful, amazing but young children. And I know that my decisions don’t just impact me. They impact our whole family. What does it mean to navigate a faith crisis while you are bound to people who do not share that crisis with you? Can I reconcile my deep, haunting concerns with my desire to still support my wife in her church attendance? What does that mean for our children and what they are taught?
That you are aware of her feelings about this is good. It is not fun for anyone. I am the more TBM of our marriage but am more NOM than TBM so we are able to discuss many issues. It is a difficult place to be and I can say that I am better now regarding all those unknowns now than I was a year ago. The unknown was/is the most difficult for me. It is a hard thing. On Our Own had some great advice.
Welcome and I hope both of you find peace.
I understand — completely. I don’t beleive in our leaders as oracles of knowledge anymore either. They are managers — they implement policy, and at the higher levels. form policy. They attach the habits of our religion to success in the church and salvation when there isn’t a direct link, in my view. I go each week with my family but I use the time to read my Kindle, reflect, and skip out of priesthood meeting for other more interesting experiences….that is how I cope.
Hi, James – Glad you’re here. It’s a good place to get your bearings; I’ve learned a lot. jhp33 wrote:
And what exactly does it sayabout the system of our church that the fact that I’m not sure if I’m “worthy” of a piece of paper sitting in my wallet makes me question my relationship with God, as if he cares that much about a piece of paper based on a profession of loyalty to MEN, not HIM. Good question. All I know is that what I thought it said a year and a half ago isn’t the same as what I think it says now. If negativity about the temple is a hole in my “testimony,” the hole is smaller than when I started, but it’s also deeper.
After living with me for a year and a half in full crisis, my husband is less guarded and defensive. He sees that I’m not going anywhere and he’s a little more willing to talk.
Welcome James! I can relate to much of what you express. It does take some time to sort through everything and rebuild a personal belief that is compatible with both your view of what church is and your view of what truth is. For me my view of what church is has grown into something greater than it has ever been. I used to be a little embarrassed to tell people I was Mormon, not anymore. I don’t assume anyone can know much about my personal beliefs simply from my religious affiliation.
I see a big key in your last sentence. Yes, Jesus would welcome all regardless if he had major differences with them. I don’t teach my kids to follow the prophet. I counsel them to carefully
listento the prophet and consider his advice, but always followthe example of Jesus. Welcome, James. As someone else pointed out, your story is somewhat common here. Of late, since coming here a few months ago actually, I have been working hard at rebuilding my faith brick by brick. The rebuilding has meant throwing some bricks away since they don’t fit or are useless. I concentrate on the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the scriptures, particularly the Bible, not the gospel as taught by the church. In the process I have come to recognize that while the church is not the perfect organization I once thought it was, there is much good and truth therein. In conversations with my wife now (which are admittedly still rare) I concentrate on that which I do believe and hold in common with her and my other believing loved ones. I can sustain the president of the church as the duly appointed CEO who, with his cohorts, makes church policy, and I’m fine with that. I do believe he has the ability to receive revelation for mankind, but I don’t believe he does so regularly and I don’t believe he is the only one who can do so. I believe I am honest in answering the question of sustaining him without necessarily believing every word that comes out of his mouth is revelation or inspired. The priesthood ban thing does complicate matters, but on the other hand it proves my belief.
I am actually uplifted by the church being more open, honest, and clear about such things as the priesthood ban and think it’s about time. Couple that with statements like Pres. Uchtdorf’s conference admission that leaders have made mistakes and there is still room for those of us who doubt and question and I find hope. Please come stay with us for awhile, share, and take in the love and goodness in our little online community.
You guys are amazing. Seriously. Just hearing “I know how you feel” multiple times is a huge support. I have some other things I want to talk about, but I’ll leave this thread for what it is meant for…introductions. I appreciate each and every one of you for reaching out and showing me a hand of fellowship. I stand in need of comfort now, and I know you are all here to help. As I continue to grow and learn, I hope I can provide that same level of comfort and support you have shown me.
James – Welcome. I am the more believing spouse. I attend the most, and function as traditionally as I can at this point. I’ve been your wife, though my kids were older, the panic is the same. I was a bit unorthodox, though, I was sure he just needed my guidance to straighten him out. I dove in head first reading material, re-explaining it to him and so on. It was a bit crazed in our home. But I do know the hurt. She and you will go through many phases in this process. None of them will be exact or even chart-able. It is a grief, there is no other word for it. You both lost something dear and precious. Those 5 phases of grief do apply – anger, numbness, despair, sorrow. They will be yours and her companion for a long time. Over here we are going on 6 years. One thing that I encourage faith crisis spouse’s to do is visit
http://www.faceseast.org/forum/ . It is a forum for believing, practicing spouse who have chosen to remain in their new style marriage. Your wife may not fit the exact mold, but visiting it and trying to read the world from their point of view, may help you select how you approach the road ahead.Like everyone has said, your story is like most of ours. We are glad you found us, and wish you luck as you navigate the terrain.
Glad to have you here. Of late I have been reminding myself not to inhale when it comes to this stuff at church. If you don’t internalize it, you can view it objectively and it doesn’t affect you the same way. There are so many things I find objectionable, but I also find a lot of things objectionable about American culture, about the area I live in, about values of people around me in general. I just have to keep remembering I’m myself, not them. I am an individual with my own ideas and feelings. Sometimes that is enough. Sometimes it’s not. Looking forward to your further ideas.
I second hawk girls approach. Indoctrination can and will get you to change yourself even when you know about it and try to work against it if it is repeated enough and you internalize it… It will change who you are or want to believe, act or think. For about 15 years of my life I have fought indoctrination in government, advertisement and business and schools. Educating people on the various stratifies used and how best to cut through them and decipher what they mean and so and why and how they work. I was so confirmation biased on my own religion and family though that I never saw there.
Only after some years of specialized therapy could I help to erase the conditioning there, a North Korean specializing in this field. I was amazed to see and here similar tactics they go through being used in our own government and church, it frightened and scared me for awhile. Until I learned how to properly block it from entering my mind and internalizing. Internalizing is the key, find ways so you can cope and not internalize it or repeat what was said or taught that you have found harmful in your life. For children it’s much more dangerous, many repetitions can and will change them from who they are into something else almost always.
Best option is to present different alternatives and offset repetition for them with material that isn’t or represents various positive wats of looking at things so they don’t have just one way endlessly repeating to condition them but several balanced ways not as repetitive. While I believe in much good that is done, that doesn’t mean indoctrination is ok and I avoid repetition now and do balanced approached to reading from multiple perspectives so as to try and not to let others accidentally or otherwise re-indoctrinate me. Stopping repartition is a huge key. Especially in places where they have you constantly repeating things to yourself. There are various techniques I was taught to help combat this, not just at church but in marketing and government as well.
Anyways, that should help with going to church as well as other places once you learn not to constantly repeat it internalize things taught. You can remain more at peace instead of fighting it in your mind.
I hope things get better for you. In my life right now it’s more of learning to brush off outside pressure as I tend to be a person that tries to make others happy even at great sacrifice and negative effect to myself. But I have to ask why they would ask me to so things that would result in that to begin with.
I can relate a lot but have gotten past the history, just not the present, which will always matter to me. I can bit stabs ideally by and watch even strangers get emotionally or physically harmed. So I have to ask myself how I can positively do great effect help people who needed help inside the church without raising radar since I regularly see so much I know that has a history of leading or currently causing negative emotional fruit while maintaining positive atmosphere on both sides. Seems impossible at the moment, but one thing is for sure I can not allow someone to be trampled or emotionally harmed in my presence. It’s just guilt to extreme to live with. To many people do nothing and that is all that is needed for evil and injustice to prevail. Find a way that let’s you cope with yourself, for that is the only thing you have real control over.
Hi James. I know how you feel. My trigger was different but the disillusionment was the same.
I remember after the initial phase of my FC, I found an approach to the gospel in the book Believing Christ that was so invigorating. I was alive with hope that maybe I had just individually “looked beyond the mark” and that now I that my eye’s had been opened all would be well again. I would have loved for it to be just my error, just my shortsightedness. Instead I found that the church leaders had downplayed and even criticized the perspective taught in Believing Christ in official church publications. I had believed as I did because that is how I was taught by the institution and now that I had found a view that gave me hope … it was unsettling to accept that it was an alternative viewpoint – not the party line or majority LDS opinion.
My journey over the last several years has been an exercise in building a personal faith.
StayLDS has been particularly helpful in giving me ways to tether or build bridges between my personal faith and the institutional teachings. Many times the institutional teachings are much more fluid than I had supposed. There are many unexplored corners of our membership tent. We are awash in “alternative viewpoints.” There are ways that I can be uniquely me in my faith and still be authentically Mormon.
Welcome to the group!
A couple pieces of very good advice that I received that have made a huge difference for me: 1) Go slow. Keep doing what your doing until you are confident of your path forward and the ramifications of taking it. 2) redefine what your new values are and live according to them. I still need to exercise self control if I want to be happy. For me, I don’t believe the church is true. But I realize that people need a supportive community to be happy. The church is a actually a really good community/tribe to belong to. Although it is possible, most people don’t replace this function that the church plays in their lives when they leave. I stay in for my wife and kids, and to keep my friends and supportive community in the church.
I’m a year into my complete loss of faith. My wife is understanding, but doesn’t agree with me. Our compromise is that I don’t tell the kids the church isn’t true, but we slowly introduce some of the non-faith promoting issues in FHE without bias. The goal is to help the kids know that the prophets and apostles are men that don’t always speak for God, and thus some of the church teachings are open to reinterpretation.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.