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For a while, I have thought that God’s will is not DIRECTLY communicated to His prophets. It is communicated through the filter of their own experiences, understanding and (even) biases. I do believe that they are (like the rest of us)attempting to understand and do God’s will. It’s just challenging at times to figure out what His will is. I was looking for that quote that basically said that we do not need to trouble ourselves over things said by a single LDS authority, that things only become binding upon us as LDS when it is the combined voice of the brethren. Does anyone have that quote handy? How does that play into this prophet business? Is a prophet only a prophet when he is acting in unison with the Q15?
I half remember a quote along those lines but the one thing that is missing from the equation is doing things by common consent from the body of the church, not just the head. We’ve really gotten away from that, perhaps because of logistical difficulties? Ann wrote:I agree. Let’s have real discussions. Like if a teacher would asked, “Which prophet ended the North American slave trade?” – we would have an interesting discussion. We could agree that God’s will was done there, but how did it get done?
This. Assign all good on the earth to God’s hand and then observe the mechanisms and vehicles God uses to bring about good. When you look at the things that have effected the most good: (increased comfort, peace, health, life expectancy, equality, etc), it’s hard to argue that God works much through anybody
exceptscientists and engineers. Oh, and those pesky social activists. I’m not trying to be standoffish about Church leadership, but this is real world where these things can actually be measured and observed over time. How has God worked through prophets in the last 100-150 years to brings joy, love, and peace to his children? marty wrote:How has God worked through prophets in the last 100-150 years to brings joy, love, and peace to his children?
Many LDS families are blessed by the messages of the prophets, the General Conf type things like “Beware of Pride”, “Lengthen your stride”, “Be a light and example”, “Prepare”…
Perhaps they are not hugely earth shattering prophetic teachings, but if they help families be willing to serve each other and help others, it is the role the prophet is designed to do.
I think of Hurricane Sandy in New Jersey, or floods in New Orleans, or areas where disasters happen and LDS people respond in a very organized way. That says something about what prophets are teaching us.
I made some comments in class yesterday at church on this topic. “Are prophets fallible?” Consensus from the class…absolutely, the are mortals.
“Do we want to turn off our brains…when the prophet speaks, the debate is over?” Bishop was in class and made the point that our church absolutely does not teach blind obedience. It teaches faithful and hopeful obedience, sometimes it takes time to work through our faith and see the outcomes. But blind obedience doesn’t help us learn. Everyone agreed.
I think the scripture that helped was when we read D&C 21
Quote:“For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith” (D&C 21:4–5).
Patience and faith is needed to follow a prophet.
Sometimes….lots of patience…and lots of faith. Sometimes I need patience in myself … to give me time to think and study and work through how I feel before I can obey. Which means…sometimes there are periods I allow myself to withhold obedience until I can do it in the right spirit.
In other words…sometimes black and white, absolute statements about hard obedience leave out the timing of it, and it distorts things a bit.
I would venture to guess that AP would have been able to stay in our SS class about this material. The comments were pretty open and honest and uplifting. We even had one man (in his late 80s) tell us all TSM is NOT a prophet. He shared an experience where he was treated poorly and offended by TSM, and his testimony is that TSM is NOT prophet material in no way. This old man is kind of funny and makes off the wall remarks at times, but it made for good discussion in the class. I like that it can be shared in class.
Heber13 wrote:I think of Hurricane Sandy in New Jersey, or floods in New Orleans, or areas where disasters happen and LDS people respond in a very organized way. That says something about what prophets are teaching us.
Hopefully my comment didn’t come across that I don’t think the apostles and prophets are contributing to the betterment of society and enriching the lives of members (and non-members).
This is very subjective (measuring good), but I was thinking of really huge things that were inspired or created outside of the Church:
Abolition of slavery
- Civil rights
- Vaccinations (saving hundreds of millions of lives
- Women’s rights
- Medicine: transplants, drugs, etc
- Technology
I think the point was that it’s hard to argue that God does “nothing” except through prophets, when we’ve seen such massive improvements in ethics, health, and comfort from outside the Church. That’s a good thing, IMO. It opens the door for us to embrace more good from more sources.
marty wrote:Heber13 wrote:I think of Hurricane Sandy in New Jersey, or floods in New Orleans, or areas where disasters happen and LDS people respond in a very organized way. That says something about what prophets are teaching us.
Hopefully my comment didn’t come across that I don’t think the apostles and prophets are contributing to the betterment of society and enriching the lives of members (and non-members).
This is very subjective (measuring good), but I was thinking of really huge things that were inspired or created outside of the Church:
Abolition of slavery
- Civil rights
- Vaccinations (saving hundreds of millions of lives
- Women’s rights
- Medicine: transplants, drugs, etc
- Technology
I think the point was that it’s hard to argue that God does “nothing” except through prophets, when we’ve seen such massive improvements in ethics, health, and comfort from outside the Church. That’s a good thing, IMO. It opens the door for us to embrace more good from more sources.
Alternative points of view are that God doesn’t/didn’t of any of those things, that God doesn’t do anything at all, or that there is no God.
There DJ goes again with his trite “Sunday School answers” we hear every week at church! 
marty wrote:It opens the door for us to embrace more good from more sources.
:thumbup: And to consider some of the other options, too.
The bible dictionary reads:
Quote:In certain cases prophets predicted future events, such as the very important prophecies announcing the coming of Messiah’s kingdom; but as a rule a prophet was a forthteller rather than a foreteller.
The first, foretelling, predicts the future by announcing the will of God and his plans for his people. Foretelling calls the faithful cooperate with God’s holy intentions through prayer, patience, and faithful obedience.
The second, forthtelling applies to the present circumstances. Forthtelling calls God’s people to repentance and draws them back to the covenant promises and lessons of old. The Old Testament the prophets frequently served as social and political reformers.
I can see forthtelling as the role the prophet often has…reminding us of lessons of old. Even if sometimes it feels there has been less foretelling since the days of Joseph Smith, the forthtelling has been the greater part of the prophet’s role we have seen and heard.
marty wrote:This is very subjective (measuring good), but I was thinking of really huge things that were inspired or created outside of the Church
I agree Marty. Really big things have been happening throughout history outside of prophets. Even when GC talks mention that society is crumbling and we must hang on to our morals and our standards as the world drifts further away…I always think…”there has been greater progress in so many things, I would rather live now than ever before.”
So…it seems I have to take and digest what the prophet is teaching and apply it, without thinking so literally at the words.
Quote:Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
-Amos 3:7
That can’t literally mean god does nothing except speak to prophets. I guess unless all those great things Marty listed happen without God speaking to people.
Could that be true?
We may not need prophets to progress as a society. God may use prophets to remind us of things as he also lets us learn and progress without needing his help.
Maybe part of the lesson about prophets should be for us to learn as mormons we sometimes look to the prophet for everything, when that isn’t the role of the prophet…to speak on everything.
We can all figure things out in life as we learn truth and act in line with truth. Maybe God does nothing…and we shouldn’t expect more than that.
We also believe that God has been working through many religious leaders/reformers and inventors to prepare the groundwork for the restoration. If we take as literal that God will not do anything without communicating with His prophets, then we might end up with a much expanded definition of “prophet.”
agree…or that things happen without God doing anything. Heber13 wrote:agree…or that things happen without God doing anything.
There is certainly a double meaning to that phrase, and I realized that when I wrote it. It could be that God literally does nothing and is uninvolved (a premise I subscribe to). It could also mean that God doesn’t do things, he inspirespeople to and lets them do it their own way (a premise I also could subscribe to). The whole “see through a glass darkly” idea fits the latter. Joseph Smith may well have “stolen” Mason rites for the temple because God didn’t tell him how to do it, just what to do (as an example). There are several such examples in scripture.
Roy wrote:If we take as literal that God will not do anything without communicating with His prophets, then we might end up with a much expanded definition of “prophet.”
Yeah, interesting. I like that.
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