Grace and Works

[Anonymous]

Here is the new thread Brian suggested we open to discuss grace and works. The focus should be what the general focus is here – solutions that help us reconcile things in a way that makes sense to us and allows to “StayLDS”.

I personally think the central question is about finding a proper balance that works for each of us when it comes to what is freely given and what comes as a result of our efforts to accept, follow, grow, obey, etc.

1) What are the central questions for you?

2) What questions do you have about this topic?

3) What solutions have you found that work for you?

As always, these are just starting point questions. You can address them or ignore them.

If anyone wants to review a previous discussion about grace and works, the link is:

“Grace – A LONG Initial Post” (http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=201&hilit=grace#p1616) – 32 comments

[Anonymous]

Generally, I have always loved the book of James which talks about “Faith without Works is Dead.” But, the way I relate to Grace and Works best, is in my role as a parent. I recently celebrated Mother’s Day and looked over my life as a mom, and read old cards my 3 kids had sent me. I realized that my children are just starting to understand some of the sacrifices I have made for them. BUT, I also realized they will NEVER totally understand everything I have done for them, NOR would they ever be able to repay me for all I have done for them. Nevertheless, their accomplishments, their phone calls, their cards (WORKS) mean something to me and are part of the development I want for them.

This life is like a school. We are learning new things and we are going to make mistakes. Some mistakes can be really bad like when my daughter got evicted from apartments and no one would rent to her and we gave her grace by co-signing for her if she agreed to follow our rules. Grace allows us to continue to grow and progress, even when we mess up.

[Anonymous]

Oh boy.

This topic always seems to be a firestarter.

For me, grace is something which you could never earn and never repay. It is God’s unmerited favor. I work because I have received grace, not so I may receive it. Paul taught that it is either grace or works, but not both, in Romans 11 and that grace is not an excuse to live any which way you choose in Romans 6. I think if you have received grace, or were “saved,” as it were, that your life would reflect gratitude for that gift of God, and not returned with a punch in the abdomen. Ephesians 2 tells us that it is the gift of God by faith, and not something we earned by our own works. This idea, though apparently not emphasized in the Church, is found in the Analysis of Galatians in the Bible Dictionary under the topic Pauline Epistles.

We all know the verse stating we are saved by grace, after all we can do. I take an approach to that verse as more of a “in spite of all you can do.” When it comes down to it, what is all you can do? Are we not all guilty of doing less than we could in one way or another?

At any rate, this is an argument that has been debated almost since the gospel was first presented and it is not likely one to be settled any time soon.

For my personal opinion, I think this sums it up: Justice is getting what you deserve. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. Grace is getting what you do not deserve.

[Anonymous]

My take — I generally agree that we need to do as much as we can within our frailties and resources and mental capacities in this life to help others to receive desired rewards in the next life. I may not be living it right now (a whole other story), but the concept rings true to me).

To me, it is seems incomplete that a free gift of salvation is given without requirements on our part. And I find the logic of the rest of the Christian world to try to reconcile free salvation with the value-for-effort concept extremely convoluted. Here is the logic I heard from several other proponents of other religions:

“Salvation is a free gift to all who believe in Jesus Christ. Those who are saved will naturally do good works. If you claim you are saved, but don’t do good works, then you are not saved”.

This seems to be a highly circular argument.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think that good works necessarily come naturally as a result of being saved, or receiving His grace. I do, however, believe that you would try your very best to forsake sin and do good continually. See, I DO believe that we should be involved and actively engaged in good works, I just don’t believe that they are necessarily what gets you saved, as it were. I agree with James when he says faith without works is dead, but he also says he will show he has faith by his works. Many people do the works, hoping for God’s blessing, without really having the faith to receive those blessings. Then again, he also said that if you try to keep the law (including it’s works), and offend in one point, you are guilty of the whole of it. I guess that sort of sounds like you’re damned if you don’t and you’re damned if you do. Ha…

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Here is the new thread Brian suggested we open to discuss grace and works. The focus should be what the general focus is here – solutions that help us reconcile things in a way that makes sense to us and allows to “StayLDS”…I personally think the central question is about finding a proper balance that works for each of us when it comes to what is freely given and what comes as a result of our efforts to accept, follow, grow, obey, etc.…What solutions have you found that work for you?

To me grace is a much more practical and worthwhile concept than the idea of “works” salvation because focusing more on grace wisely leaves it up to God to judge who really deserves to be forgiven or not but too much emphasis on works typically results in people becoming self-righteous and judgmental toward others. For example, I have known many active members that treat others terribly and are downright mean but they think they are already in good condition in terms of character and spiritual development mostly because they have a temple recommend, important callings, etc. and I have also seen many Jack Mormons act as Christ-like as anyone I have ever known but they are judged as unworthy by the Church simply because they drink, smoke, don’t pay tithing or attend church, etc.

I don’t mind the idea of some symbolic rituals like baptism and the sacrament as long as they are fairly reasonable in the amount of effort required from the average member to comply with these traditions. However, the problem is that the Church has taken unrealistically harsh monk-like ascetic ideals and made them expected requirements for everyone in order to earn salvation or even full-fellowship in the Church. For example, members are expected to achieve complete abstinence from any sexual experiences whatsoever before marriage and yet the majority of young men will never completely accomplish this unrealistic goal which can be very de-motivating. If you already think you are going to be condemned for something as prevalent and commonplace as masturbation and/or “lustful” thoughts then what’s the point of paying tithing, going home-teaching, etc.?

Basically, if you pay close attention to what the Church is really saying and take it all seriously then there isn’t really that much value in doing something half-way or better-than-nothing because that would mostly be a waste of effort that will never really pay off in terms of eternal rewards (Luke 14:28-30). Another problem with too much emphasis on specific works is that if you feel like some of these requirements are mostly man-made ideas and it doesn’t make sense why God would ever think they are so important then it makes it harder to trust any religious organizations that insist things like this are absolutely essential for salvation. That’s why for me the only solution to reconcile the Church’s teachings on this is simply to conclude that they are wrong about this and to ignore their continued emphasis on things like temple recommends because it looks to me like they are pretending to know which works are absolutely necessary when they don’t really know any of this.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

I personally think the central question is about finding a proper balance that works for each of us when it comes to what is freely given and what comes as a result of our efforts to accept, follow, grow, obey, etc.

I like how you put that Ray,

I personally am gravitating more towards grace but that is in part because I am realizing that my works are flawed and that I don’t and can’t deserve “heaven.” But neither can I rely on ordinances (I checked all the boxes so I must be ok) or church affiliation (I am a member of the true church so as long as I die a Mormon I’ll be ok) to get me there.

For myself I am fairly resolute that I remain a son of God. God’s capacity to love me, cheer for me, console me, and strive for me is beyond my understanding. I have faith that he will never abandon me. whether that means that I must endure a stint in spirit prison before I am prepared to take my place in His bosom, doesn’t bother me all that much because it would also signify that my Heavenly Father isn’t done with me – that He doesn’t give up.

So in reflecting on someone who emphasizes grace to the exclusion of works and may get a little lazy or in pondering the fate of the works based do-it-yourselfer that may be arrogant and judgmental, I remember that they too are children of my Father and that He will not give up on them because of their mistakes, character flaws, or erroneous doctrinal leanings. Indeed, charity never faileth!

[Anonymous]

The way I look at things is Grace before Works. Or as I have said flip the scripture around….instead of Faith with out works is dead, what is works without faith or works without Grace.

IMHO we can do all the work we can possibly do, do all the temple ordinances, keep all the commandments, live perfectly, but with out the Grace of the Atonement it all means nothing.

I relate it to a story in my mind. I am walking and doing all I can do, everything, kept every covenant, done all I can do. But at some point I come to a stepping off place, a place I have no idea about, but to progress and make it to my destination I have to take the step. Even though I have prepared and won my place until this point, proven I was worthy to get to this point, this point is the last and final test. And I can either rest on my laurels and say I’ve done all this work and stay right there……or I can take that one step into the mysterious unknown have the Christ reach out catch my hand and finish leading me home.

We can only go so far with works, they will be rewarded, but the last steps, the final steps home we have to put our hand in Christ’s and let him take us there, only he can do that and only we can put our hand in his.

That’s the way I see it. It is also why I love the song Amazing Grace, because it is amazing. People think that the atonement is the milk of the gospel, when it is not, it is the meat, everything else are side dishes. We can feast on the side dishes and they can taste good, but the actual meat is the Atonement. And one does not have to be a member of the church to partake of the Atonement, it’s available to everyone.

Yup I live in a different cafeteria

[Anonymous]

I love that Roy!

I think you have pointed out valid extremes on both sides where we stray from God. We cannot become so proud of our works that we err through self-righteousness. We also cannot become so complacent through relying on the gift of grace that we make no effort to exercise what Jesus taught.

To me it is similar to the chicken and egg dilemma, which comes first – grace or works? I feel more comfortable with a “good tree produces good fruit” analogy. It all boils down to the “mighty change of heart.” The fruit is evidence that the tree is good. Does the fruit “make” the tree good, or does the tree make the good fruit? I think it comes down to what the tree is at its core. When we’ve experienced the mighty change of heart the evidence will be that we want to do good – as far as any human can. But even after “all we can do” we’re still human, and technically will come up short.

So I don’t see works as the way we earn our reward. I see works as evidence of where our heart is — and we will be judged on where our heart is.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the discussion, everyone. I’ve enjoyed reading the comments.

I think the biggest issue, historically, has been the juxtaposition of faith/grace VS. works. I have never seen it that way – which is why I titled the post “Grace and Works”. That’s an important difference, imo.

[Anonymous]

Arwen wrote:

I relate it to a story in my mind. I am walking and doing all I can do, everything, kept every covenant, done all I can do. But at some point I come to a stepping off place, a place I have no idea about, but to progress and make it to my destination I have to take the step. Even though I have prepared and won my place until this point, proven I was worthy to get to this point, this point is the last and final test. And I can either rest on my laurels and say I’ve done all this work and stay right there……or I can take that one step into the mysterious unknown have the Christ reach out catch my hand and finish leading me home.

We can only go so far with works, they will be rewarded, but the last steps, the final steps home we have to put our hand in Christ’s and let him take us there, only he can do that and only we can put our hand in his.

What a great post, Arwen.

Thanks for that. I like the story, and see that even when we are taking those last steps based on faith…that is how we work out our faith. Again, the faith and works are co-mingled. The works can be done by faith and grace, not by the individual’s own strength…but they are also not done by doing nothing and hoping God does it all for you.

[Author]

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