Grace & Atonement

[AmyJ]

“I speculate that it was “how precious did that grace appear, the hour I first believed.” From what I read, it sounds like LDS treat grace and atonement like synonyms and I assume that some individuals would be bothered by the idea that someone can benefit from the atonement by just believing. There are steps to repentance after all. I think we LDS are similarly uncomfortable with the guy being crucified and Jesus says, “Today you will be with me in paradise.” We tend to identify with the brother of the prodigal son that was not thrilled when his brother returned from his riotous living and was welcomed with open arms.” – Roy

I dumped this into a different thread because I think there are some intriguing thoughts here from our theology:

A) “Grace” is Similar to “Atonement” – Are we talking about the human process of “atoning for a sin” (like restitution) or accessing the Atonement of Jesus Christ here?

“Just Believing” aka “Faith” in the Atonement of Jesus Christ can be a foundational start to changing one’s life and becoming more Christ-like (as a proper follower of Jesus Christ would be prone to do).

A theological problem is that accessing the Atonement of Jesus Christ can read as a limitless spiritual credit card to charge all human expenses and abuses against because it can be used to deflect “Accountability” and change.

– A quasi-related spiritual problem for women is that men in their presiding glory have more explicit to priesthood authority which gets transferred to more explicit access to the Atonement of Jesus Christ for their mistakes (so women “should forgive” the mistakes of males easier and NOT “make a stink” or demand change in this life (because it’s automatically “paid for” by the Atonement of Jesus Christ in the next life)).

Our theology is a reaction to the Protestant Reformation after all:)

– We are big on the “earn your way” perspective that we inherited from Capitalism and read back into the scriptures.

We can relate to the concrete anger and uncertainty that the older brother certainly felt. Where is the younger brother supposed to live after the father’s death? What responsibility does the older brother have towards his brother now that 1/2 of the inheritance is noticeably spent?

[Anonymous]

The big problem is that both “Grace”, “Forgiveness”, and “Access to the Atonement of Jesus Christ” are all seen as interconnected “get out of jail free” aka “Accountability” cards at the individual (person to person) level.

To me:

[Anonymous]

I am talking about atonement as in accessing the Atonement of Jesus. This was the AI summary when I started googling LDS version of Amazing Grace to find out what might have been written about the missing second verse.

Quote:

Key aspects of “Amazing Grace” and its relevance to Latter-day Saints:

Divine Grace:

The hymn emphasizes the concept of grace, which is central to Latter-day Saint theology. Latter-day Saints believe that God’s grace is the divine help and strength we receive through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. This grace enables us to overcome death and sin and to progress towards becoming like God.

Atonement:

The hymn’s message of redemption and forgiveness aligns with the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which is the core of the Latter-day Saint faith. Through the Atonement, Christ offers forgiveness and the opportunity to overcome our weaknesses and become better.

Enabling Power:

The hymn highlights the empowering nature of grace, enabling individuals to do good and serve beyond their natural capacities. This is similar to the Latter-day Saint belief that the Holy Ghost helps us grow and progress through the guidance and empowerment of God’s grace.

[Anonymous]

AmyJ wrote:

A theological problem is that accessing the Atonement of Jesus Christ can read as a limitless spiritual credit card to charge all human expenses and abuses against because it can be used to deflect “Accountability” and change.

I find this interesting because that is exactly the analogy that Stephen E. Robinson in his book “Following Christ” (follow up to believing Christ).

He compares the Atonement of JC to an infinite bank account and that when you enter into a covenant relationship with JC (symbolized by marriage) you merge your meager and overdrawn account with his infinite account.

Quote:

It’s like when Janet and I got married. I was overdrawn; Janet had money in the bank. By virtue of making that commitment, of entering into that covenant relationship of marriage with my wife, we became a joint account. No longer was there an I, and no longer a she—now it was we. My liabilities and her assets flowed into each other, and for the first time in months I was in the black.

Spiritually, this is what happens when we enter into the covenant relationship with our Savior. We have liabilities, he has assets. He proposes to us a covenant relationship. I use the word “propose” on purpose because it is a marriage of a spiritual sort that is being proposed. That is why he is called the Bridegroom. This covenant relationship is so intimate that it can be described as a marriage. I become one with Christ, and as partners we work together for my salvation and my exaltation. My liabilities and his assets flow into each other. I do all that I can do, and he does what I cannot yet do. The two of us together are perfect.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/stephen-e-robinson/believing-christ-practical-approach-atonement/

Now, I speculate that the book Following Christ (1995) was somewhat of a response to some individuals laying claim on the “easy grace” that Bro. Robinson laid out in his book Believing Christ (1992). Therefore, in Following Christ, Bro. Robinson takes pains to connect being a faithful spouse to JC and being a contributing member in good standing to the LDS church. He argues that members that are participating inherit perfection, because the church is the personification of Christ authorized to act in His behalf (power of attorney). He has also referred to the church and kingdom of God as a train and us as the crew. As long as we don’t jump off the train at some point we will all arrive at the destination of perfection together.

I feel that Bro. Robinson has further watered down his original scriptural argument for grace being a radical embrace and acceptance of us humans despite our failings and limitations.

In 2019 he wrote the following for LDS Living:

Quote:

I have a friend who always asks at about this point, “But when have I done enough? How can I know that I’ve made it?” This misunderstands the doctrine of grace by asking the wrong question. The right question is “When is my offering acceptable to the Lord? When are my efforts accepted for the time being?” You see, the answer to the former question, “When have I done enough?” is never in this life. Since the goal is perfection, the Lord can never unconditionally approve an imperfect performance. No matter how much we do in mortality, no matter how well we perform, the demand to do better, the pressure to improve and to make progress, will never go away. We have not yet arrived.

In this life we are all unprofitable servants, or to use a more modern term, we are all bad investments. (See, for example, Luke 17:10; Mosiah 2:21.) From the Savior’s perspective, even the most righteous among us cost more to save and maintain than we can produce in return. So if we’re looking for the Lord to say, “OK, you’ve done enough. Your obligation is fulfilled. You’ve made it, now relax,” we’re going to be disappointed. We need to accept the fact that we will never in this life, even through our most valiant efforts, reach the break-even point. We are all unprofitable servants being carried along on the Savior’s back by his good will—by his grace.

However, the Lord does say to us, “Given your present circumstances and your present level of maturity, you’re doing a decent job. Of course it’s not perfect, but your efforts are acceptable for the time being. I am pleased with what you’ve done.” We may not be profitable servants yet in the ultimate sense, but we can still be good and faithful ones in this limited sense. So if we are doing what can reasonably be expected of a loyal disciple in our present circumstances, then we can have faith that our offering is accepted through the grace of God. Of course we’re unprofitable—all of us. Yet within the shelter of the covenant, our honest attempts are acceptable for the time being.

https://www.ldsliving.com/how-latter-day-saints-often-misunderstand-the-phrase-after-all-we-can-do/s/91897

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

This is just so different from what he has written and said before.

I’m trying to meld these to approaches together.

Does Jesus marry us and join his infinite bank account to our meager and overdrawn bank account and then continue to keep a separate ledger and accounting to keep track of our performance? Does He say to us, “Given your present circumstances and your present level of maturity, you’re doing a decent job. Of course it’s not perfect, but your efforts are acceptable for the time being” ???

I’m really scratching my head on that one. I don’t think that this more recent position of Bro. Robinson is compatible with his previous position.

I speculate that the reason for this is, as Amy pointed out, that his previous positions “can be used to deflect “Accountability” and change.” I’m not sure if these changes in position were just organic evolutions of Bro. Robinson’s thought process OR if he faced pressure from BYU and church leadership generally to walk it back. I suspect the latter.

[Anonymous]

The Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonnhoeffer, who sacrificed his life resisting the Nazi’s, made oft-quoted comments about grace, differentiating “cheap grace” from “costly grace.”

“Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. […] Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. […] Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son […]” Discipleship, pp. 47-48

There are many who have, I think, misinterpreted Bonnhoeffer’s “costly grace” as advocating works as a way to “earn” salvation. I don’t see it that way. I take his “cheap grace” to refer to those who seek to be excused rather than forgiven, and there is a huge difference between being excused and being forgiven. If faith is not in some way transformative, then it is not genuine. Recognizing that there is nothing we can do to “earn” salvation, the recognition that we are under grace should make a difference in our lives. Of course, we are at all times indebted to grace whether we realize it or not. Our very lives are a gift. But the gratitude that comes of recognizing that should make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Didge wrote:

There are many who have, I think, misinterpreted Bonnhoeffer’s “costly grace” as advocating works as a way to “earn” salvation. I don’t see it that way. I take his “cheap grace” to refer to those who seek to be excused rather than forgiven, and there is a huge difference between being excused and being forgiven. If faith is not in some way transformative, then it is not genuine. Recognizing that there is nothing we can do to “earn” salvation, the recognition that we are under grace should make a difference in our lives. Of course, we are at all times indebted to grace whether we realize it or not. Our very lives are a gift. But the gratitude that comes of recognizing that should make a difference.

Maybe it looks like this:

“Cheap Grace” = Transactional, Personal “I Win” Justification

“Costly Grace” = Paying It Forward to others, Creating “Win-Win” environments

One of the things that I have learned about parenting is that “when it becomes about me” and “my self-righteousness”, I am likely to say or do something that is not safe for my child and I need to make choices dealing with my compromised situation – I cannot provide appropriate mentoring or discipline when I am appeasing myself at the expense of connection and collaboration with my child. I can take “cheap shots” at my child all day long to cover my nakedness or I can pay a higher cost to extend her the grace she needs in the situation to actually be mentored and access what I am trying to teach.

Sometimes, it feels to me that “Grace” costs me more now as a “Non-Christian” because I don’t have the security of trusting that “God has my back” and that the “Atonement actually works” and I have to work it into my ethical framework using the tools I have accessible to me.

[Anonymous]

I appreciate the thoughts.

One of the aspects that I love most about grace is that it gives me permission to trust God and not worry about my own reward.

As Amy expressed with her analogy about her daughter, I feel that having that worthiness weight lifted off of my shoulders can give me tools to help those around me.

Of course, there is plenty of good that is done in the world by people worried about their standing before God as well and I suppose it would be difficult to know as an outside observer what was the motivation for doing the good act.

I can only speak to me and my experience.

I know that God loves me. Period. Full Stop. There is no God loves me but … or God loves me and …

God loves me and I am choosing to leave my eternal fate in His hands and I am ok with whatever that is. This makes me very frustrating for local church leadership because I just don’t subscribe to the paradigm that God favors me when I do well or is disappointed when I don’t. God loves me … always.

[Anonymous]

Our actual doctrine of eternal progression, more and more GC talks, and the latest temple endowment versions are full of grace.

It is my own favorite part of the recent evolution in the Church.

[Anonymous]

I think the concept of grace presents a challenge to the very human sense of fairness. There’s a famousish quote that I’ll start my comment off with, not sure whether it applies but here goes.

“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”

In this case the people accustomed to privilege are the people going to church and making all the sacrifices and equality is when all the people that don’t do those things get access to the same blessings. It understandably screams unfair to the people that are making the sacrifices. So much so that many are willing to sacrifice their own access to grace at the altar to prevent the people that haven’t “earned” it from gaining similar access.

I think it’s led to the very paradoxical mindset at church that has people believing that grace must be earned.

There’s also a real worry by many that an increase in grace will lead people down the path of hedonism. After all, why try when you’re covered by grace or could do some quick deathbed repentance or something? This whole idea that people are inherently bad and the only thing keeping humanity from going all Lord of the Flies is threat of hell and damnation.

It strikes me that in both my examples, people are looking outward, not inward. People are worried what someone else is or isn’t getting or worried about what someone else may or may not do. People are looking to be dealt with fairly and comparing what others get or what others have to do factors heavily into determining what’s fair for them.

We could all use some spiritual horse blinders.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

It strikes me that in both my examples, people are looking outward, not inward. People are worried what someone else is or isn’t getting or worried about what someone else may or may not do. People are looking to be dealt with fairly and comparing what others get or what others have to do factors heavily into determining what’s fair for them.

We could all use some spiritual horse blinders.

Yes, it is a very human response.

[Author]

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