Growing

[Anonymous]

Like everyone’s story, mine could never be told in one post.

To keep it simple,

I was BIC in Utah Valley, grew up with a devout mom and mostly inactive dad.

Parents split in my early teens, mom remarried and off to Arizona we went.

Mid teens I stopped attending and partied a lot for about 6 years, in which time life experiences took me from atheistic agnostic back to having a strong testimony of the Gospel. I changed my ways a couple years ago, reactivated myself with the help of some really great elders, got married in the temple a little over a year ago. Have struggled with some testimony conflicts and also some drug use since. I truly believe in the Atonement and repentance, however my negative experiences through life (especially lately) with local leadership really makes it easy for me to turn away from seeking to confess to authority. Despite this trial I still talk to my bishop. Personality-wise, position or title doesn’t hold much water with me; it’s if you carry the Spirit with you, or not. Lately I’m having a hard time with leaders who don’t carry it. Trying to reconcile position vs true power (or lack thereof). I have a testimony of the Savior, Joseph Smith (albeit unorthodox), the Book of Mormon, the FP and Q12 and temple work and the whole shebang except sometimes certain bishops I’ve worked with haven’t been very forgiving or helpful in fostering the repentance process.

My single ward days were great. My bishop was so helpful. I really felt the Spirit and joy a lot then. Since my wife and I married we moved to a different town and the ward just isn’t the same. Granted I made some mistakes however I have since reconciled and confessed them, yet my bishop seems to think that the longest route possible is what’s best, and it doesn’t feel like he has the time to help me much.

Don’t mean to rant, and I don’t base my beliefs on other people, I’m very independent and strong, however it’s hard for me to see how this specific local leader is actually inspired in my case, and how the call that got him there was as well. This path leads me to wonder if the institution is really as divine as it claims to be.

Anywho, any insights would be greatly appreciated.

ps thanks mods.

[Anonymous]

Welcome quiet blue!

Yes, it’s difficult when we don’t always see inspiration in our leaders actions. All I can say is look for a little light at the end of the tunnel. I’m not sure about “as it claims” (even what it claims) but I do enjoy seeing bits and pieces of inspiration at church when they appear.

I hope you find your time here enjoyable!

[Anonymous]

Welcome Quietblue.

I am glad you found our community. I hope you can feel free to kick around some ideas and solutions with us. From what I read about your life, and the issues you brought up, it might be good to explore separating spiritual leaders from administrative leaders. They are not always the same in our Church (actually in all organizations).

[Anonymous]

Welcome quietblue,

There is a tendency in our culture to evaluate things on a scale, you know, the 1 to 10 thing. Usually 1 is rotten, while 10 rocks! I’ve been in the church for fifty years. I watched it carefully, interfaced with leadership, served a mission, saw the influence it has on my kids and grandchildren, and sought a personal relationship with Jesus when things got really difficult. I’d like to share a few stats with you:

Institutional Church (overall) – 6, ward leadership – 5, mission – 4, the influence with my kids & grandkids – 6, My walk with Christ – 10+

You will note that aside from my relationship with Jesus, nothing is especially high on the scale. And that is because Jesus is the only perfect man who ever lived. I have studied his teachings. I try to bring them into my life and HE alone has got me through the refiner’s fire. The people are the church. Are the people you know flawed? Yea right, well the church is flawed too, basically a Rough Stone Rolling. I would suggest you look inside yourself for the spirituality and forgiveness you seek. I have good self esteem now (didn’t always have) and I find people like me because I like myself. Try it with your ward leaders, you will be surprised. God loves you quietblue.

[Anonymous]

quietblue, welcome.

Forgive me for repeating a previous post, but I think these points are important, and item #3 is specific to your concerns with local (or maybe all) leadership…

To me there are a few really important truths to keep in mind.

FIRST: God is in charge. There is an order to heaven and heavenly things, but it is not typically limited as we are taught, or as we tend, to think it is. If God wants someone ‘saved’, then it is so. Regardless of our immature reasons as to why it shouldn’t be so.

SECOND: The Church is a facilitator and introduction to the realities of heaven. My personal belief is that it is the single best one on the earth today. Even so, it is not the reality itself. For every outward, physical ordinance (Baptism, Marriage, Priesthood, Endowment, etc.) in the Church, there is a inner, esoteric fulfillment to that ordinance that is the true essence of the thing. Everything we see & do is simply pointing to, or promising, or leading us to, the inner fulfillment.

THIRD: The weakness and limitations of the membership of the Church REQUIRES that Church leaders and leadership come not from the most spiritually in tune or Godly Saints, but from the men and women that the body of the Church can respect and look up to. Rarely, we get both types of ‘leader’ in one individual. The rest of the time, pragmatism wins, by the will of the Lord.

FOURTH: The Church and the Gospel are NOT the same thing.

FIFTH: Everything we hear in Church, everything in General Conference, in the Ensign, etc. is what the temple endowment refers to as “the doctrines of men, mingled with scripture”. ALL OF IT, even within the Church. The temple tells us where to get the ‘pure’ truth. There’s only one Source for that. “We are true messengers from Father”. “How shall I know…?” Etc.

SIXTH: The veil is BIG. And for very good reasons. A critical aspect of this is that God ALLOWS and/or REQUIRES us to misunderstand practically anything. Even His own revelation to us. Our task is to have clean hands and pure hearts so that the messages we receive are not distorted nor confusing.

SEVENTH: There never will be a bigger, more important key to living life than faith. Period.

HiJolly

[Anonymous]

Hi.

I don’t know if it helps to hear, but I have had concerns about the leadership of the church and have asked myself if they were using the power of the office, or even qualified for the power of the office. I had some difficult issues for a number of years. It took me a while to even understand the problems let alone explain them to a priesthood leader. I kinda assumed that they would “know” what I needed or that they would take the time to prepare within the Spirit to deal with my case. But sadly, there were many times when I was sure I was in the presence of a man and not a trusted leader and sure the spirit was not directing the course of things. And sadly, there was even times when these interactions were painful and made me question my testimony of priesthood all together. Even this last month, the bishop called and told me that the spirit directed him to call me in. So, I jumped to see what the Lord wanted. Once I got to his office, he had nothing to say to me and didn’t know what he was suppose to do. And many times I have found myself in a position where I had to educate my bishop so that he could attempt to help me.

It has taken me this last 18 months to even want to talk to a priesthood leader again. But, I think I am learning that this process is sometimes very imperfect because a lay ministry means that everyone is learning and sometimes blowing it in front of us. As a missionary, I blew it a few times. My mission president blew it a few times too. A stake president I still love and admire told me I was a liar ( bless his very blind heart) as he helped enable my husband to continue his denial and sinful behavior. Ouch!!! I wish I had the courage to send him a letter so that he could see the pain his judgment caused in our case. But, I am a chicken and I hope God has helped him with it.

But you know, at the end of the day, all of these inequities are swallowed up in the grace of Jesus Christ. Being called as a bishop, I am learning, does not mean that you know what to do all the time. It doesn’t mean that God is all the sudden doing the thinking for him and commanding in all things. Bishops can’t read our minds and they aren’t experts on lots of modern problems, so sometimes they are moving forward doing the best they can within their current state and sometimes very unaware that they are missing it.

In your case, I wonder if some more expansive communication with your bishop would help. The loving kind of course. Maybe it would help if you outlined your need set or explained how his neglect makes you feel. Perhaps some of it is your work to do without him, or maybe a good thorough conversation would help him open his heart to you. Or maybe, you can use the bishop for confession purposes only, and then seek peace directly from God. Our repentance is, after all is said and done, our stewardship no matter how wise our leaders are at the time, which in my mind is kinda cool because we have the power to make great things happen inside of ourselves. We dont’ have to wait on others.

Anyway, thanks for sharing and welcome. I would love to hear what you learn from your struggles. Maybe it could help me with mine.

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

FIRST: God is in charge. There is an order to heaven and heavenly things, but it is not typically limited as we are taught, or as we tend, to think it is. If God wants someone ‘saved’, then it is so. Regardless of our immature reasons as to why it shouldn’t be so.

SECOND: The Church is a facilitator and introduction to the realities of heaven. My personal belief is that it is the single best one on the earth today. Even so, it is not the reality itself. For every outward, physical ordinance (Baptism, Marriage, Priesthood, Endowment, etc.) in the Church, there is a inner, esoteric fulfillment to that ordinance that is the true essence of the thing. Everything we see & do is simply pointing to, or promising, or leading us to, the inner fulfillment.

THIRD: The weakness and limitations of the membership of the Church REQUIRES that Church leaders and leadership come not from the most spiritually in tune or Godly Saints, but from the men and women that the body of the Church can respect and look up to. Rarely, we get both types of ‘leader’ in one individual. The rest of the time, pragmatism wins, by the will of the Lord.

FOURTH: The Church and the Gospel are NOT the same thing.

FIFTH: Everything we hear in Church, everything in General Conference, in the Ensign, etc. is what the temple endowment refers to as “the doctrines of men, mingled with scripture”. ALL OF IT, even within the Church. The temple tells us where to get the ‘pure’ truth. There’s only one Source for that. “We are true messengers from Father”. “How shall I know…?” Etc.

SIXTH: The veil is BIG. And for very good reasons. A critical aspect of this is that God ALLOWS and/or REQUIRES us to misunderstand practically anything. Even His own revelation to us. Our task is to have clean hands and pure hearts so that the messages we receive are not distorted nor confusing.

WOW! BEAUTIFUL!

[Anonymous]

Poppyseed wrote:

In your case, I wonder if some more expansive communication with your bishop would help. The loving kind of course. Maybe it would help if you outlined your need set or explained how his neglect makes you feel. Perhaps some of it is your work to do without him, or maybe a good thorough conversation would help him open his heart to you.

I had a meeting with my bishop last night and was feeling in a good mood. The secretary is my HT and also a good guy so we talked for a little while before hand so that helped draw me out of my cave a little. Once I got to talking with the bishop, communications were really positive this time, and I opened up a lot more about certain questions and concerns and feelings I had (I am a thinker) and my bishop really did open up and I think he realized why I had been so closed for a while, and the conversation just got better. Things feel a lot better, I could actually feel the Spirit working while reading some scriptures with him this time. Funny thing is, I hadn’t read these responses until this morning, which tells me that your suggestion is truly wise

HiJolly, your outline is indeed very helpful, in a lot of ways it puts into words how I think and feel.

[Anonymous]

quietblue wrote:

Poppyseed wrote:

In your case, I wonder if some more expansive communication with your bishop would help. The loving kind of course. Maybe it would help if you outlined your need set or explained how his neglect makes you feel. Perhaps some of it is your work to do without him, or maybe a good thorough conversation would help him open his heart to you.

I had a meeting with my bishop last night and was feeling in a good mood. The secretary is my HT and also a good guy so we talked for a little while before hand so that helped draw me out of my cave a little. Once I got to talking with the bishop, communications were really positive this time, and I opened up a lot more about certain questions and concerns and feelings I had (I am a thinker) and my bishop really did open up and I think he realized why I had been so closed for a while, and the conversation just got better. Things feel a lot better, I could actually feel the Spirit working while reading some scriptures with him this time. Funny thing is, I hadn’t read these responses until this morning, which tells me that your suggestion is truly wise

HiJolly, your outline is indeed very helpful, in a lot of ways it puts into words how I think and feel.

I couldn’t be happier, quiet blue. Well maybe “not so quiet blue”.

[Anonymous]

To add a little more perspective, I’ve been reading about the stages of faith,

and I am finding myself shifting through phases 4/5/6, back and forth depending on the principle and experience.

[Anonymous]

Fowler would probably say you are where you are. But for us lay people, it’s hard to tell what stage we are actually in, so we call it variable.

It helps to keep in mind that the Stages of Faith are tied to real cognitive developments, so that in a very real sense, you can’t actually go backward unless you have an illness. Then again, maybe we do slip in and out of illness. 😥

Personally, I don’t want to be squarely in Stage 5 until I have developed unshakeable compassion for others. I don’t want my own sense of paradox and my own comfort to turn me into a cynical good old boy. Perhaps that is a value of the protracted development at Stage 4.

[Anonymous]

With that said, I would say that I’m mostly a 5

[Anonymous]

Thanks, quietblue for your post. I think we all find different leaders uninspiring. There are times when I think “that person doesn’t have the spirit,” but then I find that someone else really gets a lot from that person. I think that’s why local leadership changes frequently and why there is essentially an oligarchy leadership. To each his own.

[Anonymous]

HiJolly wrote:

quietblue, welcome.

Forgive me for repeating a previous post, but I think these points are important, and item #3 is specific to your concerns with local (or maybe all) leadership…

To me there are a few really important truths to keep in mind.

FIRST: God is in charge. There is an order to heaven and heavenly things, but it is not typically limited as we are taught, or as we tend, to think it is. If God wants someone ‘saved’, then it is so. Regardless of our immature reasons as to why it shouldn’t be so.

SECOND: The Church is a facilitator and introduction to the realities of heaven. My personal belief is that it is the single best one on the earth today. Even so, it is not the reality itself. For every outward, physical ordinance (Baptism, Marriage, Priesthood, Endowment, etc.) in the Church, there is a inner, esoteric fulfillment to that ordinance that is the true essence of the thing. Everything we see & do is simply pointing to, or promising, or leading us to, the inner fulfillment.

THIRD: The weakness and limitations of the membership of the Church REQUIRES that Church leaders and leadership come not from the most spiritually in tune or Godly Saints, but from the men and women that the body of the Church can respect and look up to. Rarely, we get both types of ‘leader’ in one individual. The rest of the time, pragmatism wins, by the will of the Lord.

FOURTH: The Church and the Gospel are NOT the same thing.

FIFTH: Everything we hear in Church, everything in General Conference, in the Ensign, etc. is what the temple endowment refers to as “the doctrines of men, mingled with scripture”. ALL OF IT, even within the Church. The temple tells us where to get the ‘pure’ truth. There’s only one Source for that. “We are true messengers from Father”. “How shall I know…?” Etc.

SIXTH: The veil is BIG. And for very good reasons. A critical aspect of this is that God ALLOWS and/or REQUIRES us to misunderstand practically anything. Even His own revelation to us. Our task is to have clean hands and pure hearts so that the messages we receive are not distorted nor confusing.

SEVENTH: There never will be a bigger, more important key to living life than faith. Period.

HiJolly

Outstanding, HiJolly. We should start to reference these teachings of yours as the book of HiJolly Cahpter 1, verses 1-10.

Quietblue, welcome to the group.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

There are times when I think “that person doesn’t have the spirit,” but then I find that someone else really gets a lot from that person.

Thank you for the insight.

Helps me to realize that I need to expand my awareness and stop being so selfish.

[Author]

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