Had a FC break through

[Anonymous]

I have hesitated to write this, not because it isn’t relevant, but because my committment to return to church is not generally part of it…but it is a little.

I’ve listened to so many people talk about ways to resolve FC moments. Some have said: “Just believe”…or “You think tooo much!”. A few have said the only way back is listening to your own inner voice–your own inner beacon. That counsel is most intriguing, and is proving to be very important.

During a self improvement class I recently took, I was involved in an exercise were I went to a secret place inside my own mind. Owning to the fact I have a VIVD imagination (I can go to such places and engage all of my sense and describe in detail where I am), this exercise was more invigorating than relaxing.

To cut to the chase, in my mind I personified my own inner voice–my “inner knowing”–by imagining my dead Grandfather coming to me. He brought a woman with him, and you should know I trust my Grandfather: I don’t think he would lie to me; so he came to me and had a woman who he assured me I could trust. I asked her about polygamy.

Question: Why did God force women and men to participate in something they found detestable?

Answer: God respects agency and dearly loves his daughters. He will NEVER force them to do something they don’t want. There are many women who want exaltation, but don’t want to be in plural marriage. They will not be forced. Heaven is VAST: there is enough room for everyone. There are also enumerable men who want a single wife, and the pairing will occur to the joy and complete satisfaction/satiation of all involved. There are, however, some women who actually do want to participate in plural marriage. There will be allowance for them as well. The important thing is that God will not force.

The whole deal for me that comes up revolves around agency.

During this exercise, I loudly heard messages about the absolute love and respect from God and the message that Heaven is VAST—there is enough room for everyone. I felt intense love from this woman toward the daughters of God, and that their feelings and desires would be listened to–in fact, those feelings and desires would govern their very existence and future. If absolute joy would only be achieved in a single relationship there, then that is what would happen: a man and woman who are in harmony would be together. If there were mis-matches, those would be worked out to the absolute satisfaction of each party.

Now I claim no revelation on this. This was a mental exercise I did where I personified my own “inner knowing” with an imagined personage. BUT,…this was powerful to me. This was very powerful.

I share this because I feel like I have been presented a pathway forward. When, for example, I encounter doctrinal ideas (like the latest LGBT one), I have a choice of how to interpret it. If my own inner knowing disagrees, then I actually have a choice: accept the policy, or reject it. But, in the midst of that choice, I have some peace. Why?….because when all is said and done, the most important voice in this whole situation is my own.

You see, that same God who my inner voice recognizes?…He has absolute respect for the agency He gave me. My feelings, thoughts, desires, and needs MATTER. And he respects those.

And,…in my mind, He uses “persuation, meekness, long suffering and love unfeigned” to work with me. No force exists in Heaven. WE choose, and if those choices can be made to work, they are. Heaven is VAST….

I throw this out there to you folks in hopes that maybe it might help someone. I am going to continue along this pathway and see where it leads….

I believe completely that no force exists in heaven: we choose.

[Anonymous]

Rob, thank you for eloquently expressing your experience.

Sometimes it takes time or a certain experience or something that helps us see things differently than before and gives us hope we can move forward.

I also think it helps you grow compassion. Because now that you’ve had that experience and think through polygamy and heaven from a new light…you’ll find words and explanations to others who struggle with it inadequate to get them to see it like you do. They will just hear you say “Just believe…” or “You think too much!” …when really, they need their time to go through the emotions and get to the “inner knowing”.

But you can be an example and encourage hope for them that they can get through their painful, scary, doubtful times…and find light at the end of the tunnel.

I also think that once you see how you can resolve this issue through the inner mind and imagination…you’ll be able to apply the same exercise to other issues (like SSM, or whatever is on your “bugs me” list).

And by continuing to practice at this…you come to see that you really can return to church. You really can be there and be comfortable. And you know that things will bother you at church…and this is OK. You can be at church and be bugged at church and still go on. Because Heaven is big enough. Church is big enough. And it comes down to how we choose.

Your words are very poignant. Thanks for sharing.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for sharing, Rob. I agree with you – above all else I think God demonstrates His love for us by allowing us absolute free agency. I think agency is His “prime directive.” I often say I believe in a more Deist or “hands off” kind of God – but agency is why I believe Him to be that way. He did not save the Jews from the Holocaust because He wouldn’t interfere with the agency of those killing them. He doesn’t stop child abuse or suicides for the same reason. Viewing God from that point of view is all that allows me to believe in Him at all.

[Anonymous]

DarkJedi wrote:

Thanks for sharing, Rob. I agree with you – above all else I think God demonstrates His love for us by allowing us absolute free agency. I think agency is His “prime directive.” I often say I believe in a more Deist or “hands off” kind of God – but agency is why I believe Him to be that way. He did not save the Jews from the Holocaust because He wouldn’t interfere with the agency of those killing them. He doesn’t stop child abuse or suicides for the same reason. Viewing God from that point of view is all that allows me to believe in Him at all.

I also agree with this “hands off” circumstance as well.

One thing I didn’t mention (and I do NOT want to introduce a controversy that has been beat to death on this site–and I did some of the beating!) is why polygamy was introduced at all, and whether it is from God.

As you all know, I have wrestled with the idea of whether polygamy was from God in the first place, but if it was, then WHY!!!!!!!! and WHAT!!!!!!!!

From this experience, my perspective changed quite a bit! It appears that agency operates in heaven to the maximum extent possible: the only restriction is when it interferes with someone else’s agency. So, if that is the case, are there perhaps people who want to live in plural relationships? Interesting question. So, if JS were tasked with introducing a practice that would be allowed for those who wished, and he wasn’t given the “how” of that introduction–he had to do it the best way he could, even if he bungled it here and there–well, that changes the equation somewhat.

This is TOTAL speculation. But the perspective change is intriguing to me.

Now,…here is where I am with this. I do NOT know the significance or even authenticity of polygamy on this planet. The thing that concerns me the most is the after-life. And over there, dominating principles are respect for feelings, agency, and the widest possible expression/accommodation of those feelings to allow for exaltation to be broad and expansive, perhaps even infinite.

In my mind, as long as agency is respected and held supremely inviolate, then if someone wants to practice a different form of marriage, I am fine with that. But, that practice must also be kept in bounds so that it does NOT violate the agency of any others.

It is all coming down to agency for me folks. I could care less if JS had 200 wives AS LONG AS THEY WANTED TO BE THERE, and the rest were OK with that. And for that matter, it works for polyandry as well, or SSM.

Its ALL about agency…(at least for now).

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

I could care less if JS had 200 wives AS LONG AS THEY WANTED TO BE THERE

Which is part of the problem with the accounts we have…it looks like there was that manipulative agency and threats of salvation that make it feel icky.

“Emma, you can choose to disapprove if you understand that means you are damned for eternity, and your disapproval is noted but ignored.”

“Your daughter does have a choice to consent, and she doesn’t need to do anything without the spirit of revelation telling her, but just be aware your entire family’s eternal exaltation is at stake at getting that confirmation this is God’s will.”

…I’m completely paraphrasing…but that is kind of the feeling around the “agency” in that situation.

But I agree with you on agency has a lot to do with it. I think God knows we can work through things…He doesn’t NEED to intervene, and so He doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

Rob4Hope wrote:

I could care less if JS had 200 wives AS LONG AS THEY WANTED TO BE THERE

Which is part of the problem with the accounts we have…it looks like there was that manipulative agency and threats of salvation that make it feel icky.

We are on the same page here. The problem wasn’t the alternate relationship lifestyle for me; the problem was the coercion. Was JS commanded to introduce the practice?…perhaps; I really don’t know for sure. But, was the way it was practiced in accordance with how God operates? NO! Any type of coercion violates agency, and all kinds of scriptures are broken. The Book of Mormon makes a massive case for God being patient and respecting agency. So, how this all got going is wrong.

Heber13 wrote:

“Emma, you can choose to disapprove if you understand that means you are damned for eternity, and your disapproval is noted but ignored.”

Yep, her agency was violated. She made a choice to marry JS, but unless she retains the ability to choose, did she really ever have the choice in the first place? Did not Lucifer have choice, even up until he rebelled? So, at what point does someone choice end? Good questions.

Heber13 wrote:

“Your daughter does have a choice to consent, and she doesn’t need to do anything without the spirit of revelation telling her, but just be aware your entire family’s eternal exaltation is at stake at getting that confirmation this is God’s will.”

This is a good example of a type of shaming coercion. This kind makes me the most angry because of how wide-spread it is. Its similar to saying: “Well, you can choose for yourself, but remember you have been warned, and if you go to hell, that is what you chose.”

Such phrases–I’ve heard so much of this.

Heber13 wrote:

But I agree with you on agency has a lot to do with it. I think God knows we can work through things…He doesn’t NEED to intervene, and so He doesn’t.

I also think that God intentionally doesn’t intervene as well because conflict like this forces us to make choices. In my case, I am working on being forgiving and understanding,…but I have become more defensive of my own agency. Everyone better leave my damn agency alone. That part I will fight for until I TOO would be cast out.

Heber, can you think of anything more horrible than to be coerced by a benevolent God into something you detest, and then locked into it for eternity, and this is your reward? Its almost like many of the early leaders seemed to think that somehow if people would just change, it would all work out. Something similar to this train of thought happened during the SWK days when Gay men were told to “force” themselves to marry. I suppose SWK thought it would fix it. Well, it didn’t, and then there was the period of: “Well, if they just had more faith, it would have been solved. They just didn’t have enough faith.” …and now we are where we are again….

Its all agency.

I agree with someone else who posted on another thread. The church doesn’t fear stumbling and error. The church fears success that is outside what they prescribe.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope wrote:

I also think that God intentionally doesn’t intervene as well because conflict like this forces us to make choices.

I totally agree. If you want proof of this…just see how they build a new church building. They have enough money to make it huge…but will make it intentionally small so that it forces conflict and everyone has to get creative how you can fit a new ward into a building too small for it…and then in 5 years, make additions to it….when they could have just made it bigger to begin with and grow into it.

Conflict creates opportunity for interaction.

[Anonymous]

[Admin Note]: With a smile, let’s not make this a polygamy thread. 🙂

[Anonymous]

I actually don’t see this thread moving much further. I said what I wanted.

Polygamy has been thoroughly hashed out hasn’t it.

I’ve found a measure of peace around that specific topic and that was the point I am glad I got to share.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[Anonymous]

I’m glad you had the experience and were able to share it.

I will lock the thread, again, since you did so, but, fwiw, I think it is a good thread to keep open – if we can get away from polygamy and back to the actual post. If you want to unlock it, I don’t think anyone will mind.

[Author]

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