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Hello! I love all these discussions! I’ve spent hours perusing through them over the past month–better than Netflix.
I went down the rabbit hole of church history (starting with church published essays on Book of Abraham…), and thanks to some great books by Teryl and Fiona Givens, I found my way out the other side without completely losing my testimony–although it has definitely gone through a metamorphosis. Four of my siblings left religion altogether, and now I am here looking for reasons to stay. I want to stay for my husband and four daughters who, at least for now, love the church and it works for them. I see no benefit in disrupting a healthy status quo.
I struggle with the modern church that only seems to improve as a reaction to years of social and political pressures. I struggle with a church that doesn’t care for the science behind homosexuality, and still pushes individuals toward reparative therapy which has been proven not only to be ineffective, but damaging. I struggle to see how this church is God’s one true church when other religions seem to be better embracing true Christianity. I struggle in church weekly to not let my nuanced feelings “slip” out as I know that in my ultra-conservative ward, I would be ostracized. And if that’s happened to any of you–is it as painful as it seems like it would be? Or is it liberating? Or both?
The church is set up well for families who are living fully within the expected norms, but it can be a painful place when one no longer fits those norms. The temple recommend process alone has never felt so hard, and I perceive it as a Tree-of-Life type of dichotomy–a lesser of two evils. Either I avoid the recommend process altogether and my marriage suffers and my kids sadly ask why mom never comes along for baptisms for the dead anymore. Or, I suck up the cognitive dissonance and rationalize my way through it for the sake of happy home life.
Alas! Life was easier before all this seeking nonsense happened
I know there are others like me, and that is comforting. And can I just say, we need a symbol of our nuance so we can find like-minded members? Like the tapir pins or something…
Hi Rame! Happy you could join us. Best wishes on your journey.
I think what you said about the Church applies to most Christian religions. What do you mean by “embracing true Christianity”? That’d be something to think about. Moses and Paul weren’t any more lenient towards homosexuals than the Church leadership. Probably less so. But I think you can take hope that the Church is improving. They don’t preach rehabilitation for homosexuals any longer. And outside of acting on it, they don’t take any legal action against it. They also don’t take action against LGBT activists, even on BYU campus. So I think things are improving on that front, and I see no reason why they wouldn’t get better. Religions are often very slow to embrace “science” or societal standards. It’s to be expected.
Off the Rameumptom wrote:
And if that’s happened to any of you–is it as painful as it seems like it would be? Or is it liberating? Or both?
Depends on what, and to what extent. For the most part, if you keep quiet about it, and Church leaders on a need-to-know basis, you’ll be fine. Most comments and Sunday school will at worse be shrugged off, as long as you’re not trying to pick a fight. But deviating too much over the pulpit could get you in trouble. Pick your battles.
Off the Rameumptom wrote:
The church is set up well for families who are living fully within the expected norms, but it can be a painful place when one no longer fits those norms.
The church is a fairly homogenous environment. This can be comforting and bring a sense of belonging and community to those that fit the mold. Unfortunately, it can be unsettling and marginalizing for those that do not fit the mold.
Off the Rameumptom wrote:
I struggle in church weekly to not let my nuanced feelings “slip” out as I know that in my ultra-conservative ward, I would be ostracized. And if that’s happened to any of you–is it as painful as it seems like it would be? Or is it liberating? Or both?
I agree with the pick your battles advice. I try to limit my comments in the class setting to advocating for more charity and less judgment for all. I do get the feeling that my comments are not always appreciated. Similar to relationships, you can only have so many emotional withdrawals before your comments begin to feel grating. People go to church to revel in uniformity of belief and take comfort in certainty. They really do not want or appreciate me there providing counter examples.
Welcome and I hope to hear more from you.
Welcome, and I’m glad you found this safe place – and it is safe here. Dande did say part of what I wanted to say. Keep in mind that I am a huge advocate of gays in the church and totally disagree with the November policy and the way gays are treated by church members and leaders in some places. I will reiterate one thing Dande pointed out. The church does NOT push people toward reparative therapy and does not endorse it. And the church does agree with the science behind homosexuality in that it recognizes that people do not choose to be gay. My issue with the latter point is that I didn’t choose to be hetero either – but I am allowed to express my sexuality while gays are not. I honestly don;t see how the church can say on one hand “He or she didn’t choose to be gay, but they can’t get married.” I’m not meaning to be disrespectful, and I know there are people in the church who are unaware of or disagree with Mormon and Gay – but it is the official church stance (disagree or not – and it might be fun to get a TBM to admit they disagree with the official church point of view).
https://mormonandgay.lds.org/https://mormonandgay.lds.org/” class=”bbcode_url”> Quote:I struggle in church weekly to not let my nuanced feelings “slip” out as I know that in my ultra-conservative ward, I would be ostracized. And if that’s happened to any of you–is it as painful as it seems like it would be? Or is it liberating? Or both?
It happens all the time, but I do have some street cred. For a very short time it might have been painful but it is mostly liberating. It’s mostly not what is said but how it is said. Speaking calmly in Mormonese makes a huge difference, and most of all it has to be non-confrontational. It’s when I am feeling confrontational that I keep my mouth shut. Fortunately I am usually able to control that. And I never actually let it slip – I am deliberate about it even when it’s spontaneous – and it’s usually spontaneous . Despite your perception that your ward is ultra conservative, I promise you there are less conservative and even liberal thinkers there – they’re usually just more quiet than the sometimes louder orthodox (piccolos).
No time right now, but I want to welcome you. So . . .
Welcome!
Quote:I know there are others like me, and that is comforting. And can I just say, we need a symbol of our nuance so we can find like-minded members? Like the tapir pins or something…
I started wearing a small cross. No one has asked me about it, and my husband is very down on the idea and sees it as a reminder of gruesome death. But it helps me focus. I’ve kind of hoped it would catch on, especially since a common complaint is that we don’t focus on Christ. And, man, is that truer than ever in Primary, where I am now. The kids have done a ton of matching games on the Quorum of 12, etc. Weeks go by without mention of Christ. Not even around Easter time. But I’m getting off topic.
Hello and welcome! I’m so glad you joined us. This is the most marvelous place imaginable for LDS folks who don’t want to leave the Church but who don’t feel as if they don’t quite fit the LDS mold. I love how we can be so honest here. Nobody will ever condemn you. At the same time, you will never be put in a position where you’re encouraged to just leave and get it over with. Everybody here probably has different issues with the Church and different reasons for wanting to stay. But we’re all family — even those like me who don’t post quite as often as others. Off the Rameumptom wrote:I struggle in church weekly to not let my nuanced feelings “slip” out as I know that in my ultra-conservative ward, I would be ostracized. And if that’s happened to any of you–is it as painful as it seems like it would be? Or is it liberating? Or both?
I’m sure it’s very cathartic to many people on this forum. I just can’t do it myself. I feel so sure that people would judge that I just can’t risk it. If you can, more power to you. It’s probably the courageous thing to do, but as a 69-year-old woman who has been in the Church all her life, I just can’t face the possibility of either rejection or pity. Consequently, I have chosen not to “let my nuanced feelings slip out” in a church setting. Here, I don’t have to worry about my feeling “slipping out.” I can be honest and know that I’m in a safe place.
Welcome, OTR. I’m glad you found this place and look forward to hearing your added voice here.
On the topic of the Church’s stance on homosexuality (and same-sex-marriage), I believe the Church will come around eventually.
– Most importantly, I believe many members of the Church, even the faithful, non-faith-crisis’d members, are struggling with the hard-line-ness of the present situation. For a very long time, the premise of those who have opposed ssm, for example, has been the erosion of marriage as an important element of our culture/society. Now that ssm is completely legal throughout the US, I believe many are seeing no such erosion because of ssm. I mean, sure, the divorce rate seems sky-high compared to the past and people live together with a significant other and even raise children together without marrying, but that erosion has occurred completely outside the realm of ssm. I just get a sense that a lot of members are not as opposed as they were prior to prop-8 (10 years ago).
– But also, there is very low doctrinal backing to the idea that heterosexuality is the only way that is acceptable to God. Here’s what I’ve said about that before:
On Own Now wrote:
Also, as for same sex marriage. I dispute that it is part ofdoctrine! It’s not mentioned in the restoration scriptures (BofM/D&C/PofGP), either as legitimate or prohibited. The Bible does specifically list homosexuality among a collection of sins, but it also says women should never speak in church. I don’t believe any statement in the bible about it can be taken as definitive, because it simply reflects the society of the time. Paul mentions it in both Romans (1:26-27) and I Corintians (6:9-10), but neither is a clear doctrinal proclamation about it being wrong. Rather, it is listed as an
a prioriexample. To me, this means Paul, and his audience, already assume it is evil. Yet we know from our own experience that practice and assumptions are not necessarily doctrine. These statements reflect Paul’s belief that it is wrong, but not God’s declaration. We often hear that BY’s Adam-God “Theory” was his own opinion, and not doctrine. Same category here, as far as I’m concerned. The writer of I Timothy (1:9-10) likewise added homosexual behavior to a list of things that are “contrary to sound doctrine”. Again, listing something as an example is not the same as a clear divine commandment.
The most clear doctrinally-specific verse is Leviticus 18:22 (“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”) The problem is that this is Leviticus. We take Leviticus to be the specification of the Law of Moses. So, it’s cherry-picking to select the parts of Leviticus that you believe are eternal doctrines. Admittedly, just because something is found in Leviticus doesn’t mean it’s NOT doctrine. For example, the same chapter prohibits having sex with animals, and I would say, yeah, that’s probably doctrine, and it says not to have sex with your wife’s sister, which is probably sound advice, even if not doctrinal. But Leviticus also specifies rules for sacrifices, including eating a sacrifice on the same day or next day, but burning it after that. In other words just because something is found in Leviticus doesn’t mean it IS doctrine.
Bottom line: if Leviticus is our best source for doctrine on the subject, I would humbly ask our leaders to seek a modern revelation, and not just inspiration, before declaring on behalf of God that He only accepts heterosexuality.
You asked about how vocal to be before feeling repercussions. I don’t always speak up, but I often will about topics like devaluing women or hardlining on homosexuality. I treat that as a cultural issue and that there is room to improve ourselves in how we treat others. I don’t call people out. I don’t refute doctrines. I don’t make declarative statements. Usually, I’ll just talk about how we should strive to do better in how we treat others. I haven’t been ostracized yet.
If it’s a deeper doctrinal thing, I just let it go. There’s a guy in my ward, like him a lot. He’s a first-class human being and always at the ready to make sacrifices to help others… but he has a strong belief in the ability of the Devil to get in and really mess stuff up, so he often makes comments about avoiding the wiles of the devil, etc. Personally, I think the Devil is just a personification of an abstract idea: that we have an amazing capability to act contrary to the way we think is right and good, when called upon under pressure. I’ve made a point specifically not to raise my hand after him and refute anything he’s saying. He’s right from his perspective. He’s closer to true LDS doctrine. I’m a guest and I appreciate their acceptance of me and honor it by not being contrary.
Anyway, long, winding response. Bottom line: welcome, glad to hear from you.
On Own Now wrote:
– Most importantly, I believe many members of the Church, even the faithful, non-faith-crisis’d members, are struggling with the hard-line-ness of the present situation. For a very long time, the premise of those who have opposed ssm, for example, has been the erosion of marriage as an important element of our culture/society. Now that ssm is completely legal throughout the US, I believe many are seeing no such erosion because of ssm. I mean, sure, the divorce rate seems sky-high compared to the past and people live together with a significant other and even raise children together without marrying, but that erosion has occurred completely outside the realm of ssm. I just get a sense that a lot of members are not as opposed as they were prior to prop-8 (10 years ago).
The recognition that gay marriage did not destroy society was a bit of a turning point for me. I had always felt that God loved all his children, even the gay ones, and that there was little evidence (and no hard evidence) in scripture that gay marriage, or even gay acts, are sinful. I live in a liberal northeastern state (I know, redundant) which was an early adopter of gay marriage. My main opposition was financial – tax increases, higher medical costs, etc. Well guess what? The sun rose the next day, gay people I knew who were “living in sin” were still living in sin except they could call themselves married. After a few years are my taxes or health care costs more than they would have been anyway? Probably not, based on the rate of increase being about the same as before.
The other thing I think figures into a change of thinking even among more orthodox believers is that almost everybody has a close relative or someone else they care about that is (or was) a gay Mormon and they recognize the church really is not being fair to someone they love and who they know has a testimony. The gospel is for everybody, sometimes the church misses that point.
First of all, thank you all for the warm welcome. I’m sure it’s becoming an increasingly busy job with all the shakers and movers out there! Second, I am so happy to hear that the church doesn’t condone conversion therapy anymore, and I don’t know how I missed that announcement, but I just googled it, and it was official in March 2016. So, yay! that is an important step . . . I have heard of bishops recommending it in the last few months, but they may be going rogue. Because leadership-roulette.
I LOVE the ideas and suggestions on the speaking out and being authentic yet respectful. I have withheld from commenting in Sunday school altogether because of fear of either damaging others’ faith or being considered on the fringe. I LOVE the idea of drawing the line on culture vs doctrine and LOVE the idea of NOT speaking when feeling confrontational. It certainly would be good advice for my marriage too! My poor husband …
Again, thank you for creating and maintaining this forum. It is such an important place for me right now. Just knowing y’all are out there
And is there a good discussion on here regarding LDS co-parenting when one partner has changed his or her world view since becoming a parent, or should I start one? I didn’t find one in a search.
Off the Rameumptom wrote:
Second, I am so happy to hear that the church doesn’t condone conversion therapy anymore, and I don’t know how I missed that announcement, but I just googled it, and it was official in March 2016. So, yay! that is an important step . . . I have heard of bishops recommending it in the last few months, but they may be going rogue. Because leadership-roulette.
I believe that bishops are doing the best that they can with little guidance. At current a young person with SSA can A) commit to live a celibate life in the church,
get married to a person of the opposite gender but only if they feel some attraction for that person and never in an effort to cure SSA (sounds like this may be an option for people that are bi-sexual), or C) leave the church and explore homosexual companionship.I also believe that a fairly current and prevalent opinion is that SSA is a result of a fallen mortal condition that will be removed in the next life. Once again not much for a bishop to offer in regards to hope and fulfillment in this life.
Off the Rameumptom wrote:
And is there a good discussion on here regarding LDS co-parenting when one partner has changed his or her world view since becoming a parent, or should I start one? I didn’t find one in a search.
Please start a new thread on the topic. That way we can explore your specific concerns.
Welcome, OTR. I love the name, for sure. It reminds me of a time in EQ where our instructor, as part of his lesson, read the prayer from the Rameumptom in a Monty Python British accent. We were in stitches, and remains one of my favorite lessons of all time. I suggest this method to anyone reading that section of the BOM. One of my biggest issues with the church as an organization is how it lags behind on what I view as important social issues. On the gay front, I have a unique perspective of having relatives both in and out of the church. They have chosen different paths, and it’s been interesting to observe. That said, I have some definite opinions on the matter.
On feeling safe to speak up… I’m not there yet. But I’m close. What was a game changer for me is when I realized that the members in my ward are not as Orthodox as I thought. I’m fortunate to have a close cadre of friends with whom I can have real and critical dialogue. We often don’t agree but it works. Perhaps some day you will find like minded, or at least open minded friends that you can open up to. It’s literally changed my life for the good, it having to constantly internalize everything.
Again, welcome, and see you around!
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