Happy to see so many of us

[Anonymous]

I don’t even know where to start my intro…

I am a lifetime member, RM, married in the temple etc. I have three wonderful daughters and a wonderful husband. Over the past few years a seed was planted and started to grow. It is hard to say what started it, but among other things, there was prop 8, being a moderate/left leaning member in a red state(Texas), reading Rough Stone Rolling, two close family members leaving the church(one after coming out as gay and the other because of issues with history/doctrine), and my studies in history and world civilization unearthing facts about history that contradict our church and religion in general.

My husband grew up with a member mother and non-member father. He never really was active until he went to college and then decided to serve a mission. As our discussions about life, history, and politics evolved over the years, I began to realize that he was feeling the same way I was. We sat down one night a few months ago and just let it all out. It was so wonderful to finally acknowledge that we were both having reservations about the church. We both decided though that we loved enough about it to stay.

Here it is in a nutshell:

Acknowledging these things about the church and realizing that there was so much about my previous way of thinking that was flawed was like setting a bird free to fly. Suddenly all that “Mormon guilt” was gone. I wanted to do good for the sake of doing good and not because I was afraid of the consequences. I lost the desire to judge others and didn’t care if others judged me.

These are the some of the great parts of what I have been going through.

The down side is two halves of me fighting with each other over how to deal with my realizations.

Suddenly paying tithing is harder- but I do it out of habit and knowing that the church does do many great things with it (unfortunately that stupid mall project in downtown SLC funded by the church has given me reason to question even that).

I enjoy the peace the temple brings, but the rituals don’t mean anything to me any more (and things I learned about them bother me like parts they now leave out) and I find that I can find peace in other ways so I struggle with wanting to attend but I still have my recommend.

Garments are starting to annoy me. I hate to say that. I have no desire to dress provocatively, but dang I have some cute outfits that garments don’t quite work with. Just that edge popping out is enough to drive me crazy sometimes and without the religious conviction behind it, I find it hard to want to wear them, but I still do.

Our children are entering adolesence. I want them to have the moral compass that the church gives and I want them to know the scriptures so they can choose for themselves so I do want them to attend seminary.

One of the best things of all is our ward. We have a fantastic ward. We have been in this ward for 11 years now and they are our extended family. They are low maintenance, the gossip is minimal, and they genuinely love and care for one another. We do have our interesting and zealous ones, but man I couldn’t ask for a better group of people. There are also many educated, progressive, and open minded thinkers there and I really appreciate that.

I served as relief society president for two years and found that I couldn’t do it any more and asked to be released almost three months ago. I told my bishop that I was struggling with my testimony and that I felt that I wasn’t fit to lead the sisters of the ward any more. I told him I had no desire to leave the church and that I love our ward dearly. He was so supportive and understanding. I was released the following Sunday and I haven’t received another calling yet. I wonder if he has stopped some efforts at other callings that he knows I would struggle with.

I have taken up yoga in the past 6 months and fallen in love with it. I have found an alternate way to connect with God, find peace, and take it above and beyond just the strengthing and stretching. I have no desire to become Hindu, but I appreciate so much many of the mantras and inspirational teachings it embraces. Yoga will forever be a part of my life now as a result.

So, I am on top of the fence teetering back and forth. I want to build a nice comfortable platform up here and set up camp. My husband and I liken it to those who are raised in and practice for life the religion of their ancestors. Like they say in Fiddler on the Roof – it is tradition! I love getting together with our extended family for baptisms, weddings, and other LDS milestones. It is in my dna by now. I come from pioneers on both sides- it is a rich tradition even if it is flawed. It has become a love/hate relationship.

My biggest concern is answering our daughters’ questions. I don’t want to divulge too much but I don’t want to lie. They are smart. Their questions delve much deeper than mine did at that age. Luckily, they know we are not the zealous type and they appreciate that. I just have to hope the right words will come when those occasions arise.

There is so much more, but I will leave it here by saying that we are staying and hoping that we can continue comfortably in the middle.

[Anonymous]

Openmind, what a great introduction. You’re going to fit right in.

Keep in coming.

Mike from Milton.

[Anonymous]

Welcome. I think it’s great that you and your husband have found that you can work together on this, and that you feel comfortable staying engaged in the church. What a great blessing to be on the same page with your spouse. I can relate to your new-found lack of motivation to do some things that used to be taken for granted.

[Anonymous]

openmind17 wrote:

I have taken up yoga in the past 6 months and fallen in love with it. I have found an alternate way to connect with God, find peace, and take it above and beyond just the strengthing and stretching. I have no desire to become Hindu, but I appreciate so much many of the mantras and inspirational teachings it embraces. Yoga will forever be a part of my life now as a result.

welcome. i love your avatar: Om.

i agree that yoga is a Way to connect, especially as you get beyond hatha yoga. i became familiar with it shortly after my mission 35 years ago, and spent the past two years in india. there is much to appreciate. there is also much that is foreign and man made in it. i have worshipped in some the most sacred hindu temples, yet, when you get to the deepest rituals, they can make our temple ritual appear quite conventional, simple, and far more edifying by comparison.

i don’t know how familiar you are with sanskrit, but “yoga” means union/unity. it is a state of mind (yogastah) where your thought and action re one with the universe. yoga con mean oneness of body (hatha yoga), of breath (prana yoga), of knowledge (gnana yoga)… the point being the centered alignment of body, breath, mind, and spirit leads to an enlightened unity (buddhiyogaad). the actions (karma) we do on this enlightened state, absent attachment (sangam tyaktva), becomes natural action.

these principles are present in all belief systems. Christ taught of the Way, Truth, and Life…a light to the world. these words are equivalent to buddhiyogaad. The Way is called Tao in chinese.

what i appreciate in joseph smith was that he was syncretic, adopting other brliefs into his agenda for mprmonism. we need more of thart today. more and more reading of the book of mormon dies not get us there. religion is like a shattered holographic picture of the ultimate reality. all religions point to a Way or two, like fingers pointing to the moon. once we see the moon, the fingers may no longer be necessary.

[Anonymous]

Openmind,

Welcome to the group! I identified with several things you mentioned in your introduction. I too don’t feel much meaning in rituals and ordinances within the church. The other day I was in the temple and I couldn’t help but think, “Does this even matter?” However, I do enjoy the peaceful environment the temple has. One thing you mentioned has been on my mind a lot.

Quote:

My biggest concern is answering our daughters’ questions. I don’t want to divulge too much but I don’t want to lie. They are smart. Their questions delve much deeper than mine did at that age.

I don’t have kids yet, but ever since I have entered this transitional process of relearning what I believe in I often wonder how I will raise my kids in the church and how I will deal with teaching them and answering questions. As a person I value truth and honesty. I try to be as truthful and as honest as humanly possible. It seems like a difficult balance to maintain. How do I educate my kids without forcing my perception on them? I want them to have an understanding of the problems within the church. However, I sometimes look at the pain and loneliness I have had to endure and wonder do I want them to feel this way? Hard to know. Let me know–if you are willing to share–if you find a good way to talk to kids about this kind of stuff.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for sharing your story. Like so many of us here, it sounds like you are balancing the great mixed bag of the good and the unnecessary many of us see. It’s really nice your DH is on the same page. That really helps. It also helps a lot to be in a highly functional and loving ward. Glad to have you here in our virtual ward too.

[Anonymous]

Welcome! I enjoyed reading your intro.

openmind17 wrote:

So, I am on top of the fence teetering back and forth. I want to build a nice comfortable platform up here and set up camp.

I can relate to this. I also found myself atop the fence – and after a while started to realize I didn’t like the fact that there was a fence there. I started looking for ways to bring it down, and at the very least I want to put in a gate.

[Anonymous]

Loved your intro. And I think you gave your own reason to stay – it’s the reason I’m staying, too:

Quote:

I wanted to do good for the sake of doing good and not because I was afraid of the consequences.

For me, the church has primarily become about serving others, and allowing my family to be served by others. I think that’s the biggest thing the church offers: a vehicle for us mortals to learn how to love and serve one another. Sounds like you’re very lucky to have a great ward that’s a tight community. Not that my advice is worth much, but I’d keep on finding ways to love and serve them, and allow them to love and serve you back.

[Anonymous]

I very much enjoyed your introduction. Welcome – although I feel a big unqualified to say that being a newbie myself.

You comments and thoughts about your children caught my attention. Specifically your indecision on what to say and your comment about wanting them involved for the “moral compass.” A lot of the reason I am writing this is that I am in a similar spot – I’ve got a 16, 14, 10 & 6 year old so I’m looking at some of the same issues and this is helping me think through it for myself.

First, the moral compass thing. I hope I can get my meaning across here – sometimes it’s difficult where there is no body language. I agree largely with the sentiment of what you are saying, but to me there is a big caveat.

I agree that it provides a structure to try to help keep your kids out of trouble. It can strengthen many values that you have and hopefully help your kids to stay away from drugs, alcohol, risky sex, etc. It may also help engender things like service, etc.

However using the church as a moral compass concerns me somewhat. In my observation the core principle is obedience. It would be a fairly long explanation of why I have come to this conclusion – so here’s a brief example. I’ve observed that every other law is subject to change other than obedience. For example the two laws that would seem the most immutable would be “though shalt not kill” and “thou shalt not commit adultery”. However you don’t have to look far to see counter examples – Abraham for example slaughtered a city after they were circumcised and had children other than with his wife. Nephi being told to slay Laban in another example.

So at the core the only “moral” you can count on is obedience. The problem with obedience is it is neither moral nor immoral it is amoral. An extreme example would be those who followed their priesthood leaders in the mountain meadow massacre. They were obedient yet extremely immoral. It depends what you are being obedient too that determines whether your action is moral or immoral – another example of immoral obedience would be the Nazi’s following orders to slaughter Jewish prisoners.

Within the LDS culture you can find things that will teach both moral and immoral things. For example, in my opinion a religion campaigning to legally deny civil rights of gay marriage is immoral. Likewise you can easily find self-righteousness and being judgmental found and taught in LDS culture – not always but it is often there even in subtle ways.

So my point is: Yes, your children’s involvement in church may provide a framework for getting them through the tumultuous teens – and if you don’t have that structure what would you use? However, don’t trust it to be a true moral compass. Make sure you don’t abdicate that – some of what they learn may not be in line with your definition of morality. (I recognize I may be reading too much into the phrase “moral compass”.)

Second the what do we tell the kids thing.

I don’t think the right answer is to show your new beliefs down their throat. However, I think it is important to be honest and direct with them. I think they should be very aware that you don’t literally believe it and that you are staying involved for other reasons. At a minimum they should feel they have an invitation from you to discuss what your beliefs are without forcing them to change theirs. It may be a concern that you will “confuse” them. Kids handle these kinds of confusion better than adults in my observation.

I hope things continue to go well for you. I always love to hear stories of someone who had a testimony, was living the gospel, wasn’t offended, and just realized things don’t add up. This flies in the face of the TBM view that anyone having their testimony lost does so because of sin or laziness.

Also, I hope you recognize how fortunate to be on the same page as your husband. That is a wonderful luxury that I’m a bit envious of (in a good way – I’m happy for you.) I’m also glad for you that your bishop handled things apparently quite well. My bishop was very hostile (I was elder’s quorum president at the time and he had all the passwords changed, immediately told me to stand down and wouldn’t even shake my hand. He physically had me hand over my temple recommend in our meeting, etc.) Granted I may have been a little more direct in my telling him I didn’t believe, but you are fortunate that your bishop has allowed you to keep your recommend, IMO.

Good luck on your journey!

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for your kind welcoming comments.

First to Wayfarer: I am studying a few types of yoga under different teachers. I study Ashtanga under a deeply devoted yogi who has traveled the world and spent the past 10 years becoming deeply involved in Ashtanga as a way of life. The eight limbs of Ashtanga include among other things, not harming others and not lying. The repitition of Ashtanga is also very comforting. I also study Vinyasa under a native Indian. She shares mantras and thoughts in each class and has a theme to the practice each time which is both physical and emotional/spiritual. I also do Yin and Yin Yang on occasion. These help you develop patience and becoming introspective as you hold the poses for 3-5 minutes. I have also read The Science of Yoga and have been fascinated to learn not only how yoga benefits me, but the interesting history of it. How fun to have spent time in India. I hope to be able to go some day. I love the Om symbol because it signifies diety and the omnipotence of God. How wonderful to have this be part of a daily fitness routine.

To Orson: I love the idea of bringing the wall down or putting in a gate. It makes you down among it instead of above it and not really involved. Thanks for that visual.

To bc_pg: Wow, I never really thought about all of the intricate branches of the moral compass analogy. I guess what I meant is that I would like what you said in the beginning that it can help them avoid dangerous things and instill a sense of service and love for others. My oldest is just getting ready to enter high school so I will ride that roller coaster and cross each bridge as I come to it. I definitely believe in being open and honest with my kids about my feelings about the church and they already know that to a small degree. One small example is a discussion we had about green tea. We all drink green tea in our home and there are others in the ward and in the church in general that believe it is in violation of the WOW. It was a great teaching moment. We discussed the fact that the church deliberately leaves many of the tiny details up to us so we can use our agency and do what is right for us. This is a great segue into future discussions about other doctrine and we have had a few already. When they were wanting to go trick or treating on Sunday for instance, my oldest said “Mom, I think it’s like the green tea thing.” She already knows that she can make those smaller decisions and is not worried about what others think. It is a good start. I have to admit (if any of you live in Utah, I apologize) that I am so glad I left Utah. My sister still lives there and is constantly giving me details of the goings on there. I like being out here in “the mission field.” I felt so much more judged and surrounded in Utah. My kids have wonderful friends in different faiths who share their similar values. I even let them go to church with those friends on occasion if they want so they can have that exposure. When I left Utah at age 15 I was scared to death. It was a whole “us against them” attitude that I was fed. I didn’t even know the difference between Catholics and protestants. Crazy. Anyway, I hope it all continues to go as well as it is now…we will see. Parenting is such a simultaneously scary and wonderful thing isn’t it?

Thanks again for all the wonderful welcoming remarks. I enjoy hearing so many different stories and points of view.

[Anonymous]

Just finished 12 hours on the road, so this will be brief, but I wanted to thank you for your introduction and welcome you here. I’m looking forward to learning more from you.

[Anonymous]

Kumahito wrote:

For me, the church has primarily become about serving others, and allowing my family to be served by others. I think that’s the biggest thing the church offers: a vehicle for us mortals to learn how to love and serve one another. Sounds like you’re very lucky to have a great ward that’s a tight community. Not that my advice is worth much, but I’d keep on finding ways to love and serve them, and allow them to love and serve you back.

Reading this reminded me of the talk “Why the Church is as true as the Gospel” by Eugene England. It talks about how the experience of serving and being served by imperfect mortals is as much a catalyst for growth as any concept in the Gospel. You can find it here:

http://eugeneengland.org/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/1999_e_004.pdf

Openmind,

Welcome – I loved the green tea teaching moment. Sounds like a perfect analogy of “personal adaptation.” :thumbup:

[Anonymous]

openmind17, I truly have enjoyed reading your intro. Especially the part about letting your kids go to other churches. Since my husband and I are converts, this fear was not in us and it makes perfect sense if we would like other people’s children to come to church with our kids, then it should go both ways. We have taught our kids to look for the good in all faiths and to focus on what things you have in common when you are in their services. We have been confident in our own beliefs as we have worked through beliefs of other faiths. Not to say our beliefs would necessarily be accepted by all others in our stake! 😆 We do think differently and are known to be different! And it’s a good thing!

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