- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I’ve lurked on this site for close to 4 years, and I appreciate all that I’ve learned from everyone. I came to ask about experiences with going back. I grew up in a very small SE Idaho Mormon town. I’ve come to realize that I will never not be Mormon. My husband and I found out it wasn’t true in 2020 and left Idaho the next year. The church played a large part in that decision, however, child SA in the extended family was the straw that broke the camel’s back. We couldn’t see a future for our family in SE Idaho and needed distance to protect our young children. We sold our hobby farm and moved to an area where we thought we had the best chance of building community.
We had two small kids at the time, now 3. My kids attend a Japanese language immersion school, as both my husband and I speak Japanese. We didn’t know anyone here before we came, but we have made some friends, though I’m troubleshooting on how to make deeper connections. I’m a SAHM and am largely still living the Mormon lifestyle. Most women in my area work. I have decided not to work until my kids are all in school. I don’t think that working would solve my longing for community for my children, though it may give me some work friends.
The local ward has reached out now and then, and we’ve attended a few social events. We’ve invited some members over for dinner and board games, and have been invited over a few times as well. I have also given and received invitations from people at my children’s school. The friendships from school are less deep in general, even though we see everyone much more often.
To cut to the chase, I miss it. It’s my culture and just so much easier to make friends that are willing to cooperate and pool resources, especially among the SAHM group. I can’t decide if it’sike pulling in a pair of comfortable sweat pants, or a dog returning to its vomit.
I miss socializing with people who are in a different stages of life, the community rituals and singing together, and having a place where people seem to genuinely be interested in building up a “kingdom of God,” if you will.
My kids are not Mormon, and they are the reason why I don’t go back. Is it possible to be a non-believing member with children? Is it possible to get the benefits of the community for children while also avoiding the indoctrination? I wouldn’t pay tithing or agree to teaching callings, and it may just end up being painful for my kids. My gut feeling is that teenagers would be more ostracized even though younger children may not be.
I went to an RS activity and babysat some kids from the ward. I can’t believe how integrated I am, considering how little effort I’ve put into it. We’ve tried other churches, one in particular for 3 years, and I still haven’t found a way to connect with people. I feel like the other churches are so large that people aren’t as invested in the individual people and community. Or maybe it’s that they rely on the paid clergy and so are less personally invested in making things work? I honestly don’t know.
I would like to ask how things have turned out for some of you, especially if you have children who are a little older now.
God, I miss it. There’s no going back to Eden, but can you hang around outside of the walls? Is being a non-believing Mormon any worse than being a non-believing member at another church?
Thank you for your time.
Welcome to the forum. There are definitely people here who can relate to your situation, especially regarding the “tribe” connection you miss. Mormonism for most people is more than a religion or church, it is a lifestyle and there are social aspects that aren’t easily duplicated elsewhere (I’m not sure they can be exactly duplicated). Your questions are complex. Can you be a nonbelieving member? Sure, but it ain’t easy and you will likely always feel a bit on the outside. Your kids even more so because they aren’t actually members. Members/leaders tend not to let that go and will want your kids to be members and active. You don’t say where you live (which is fine) but whether you live in a predominantly Mormon area can have an impact on how the church and church members may act and react. Outside the Mormon Corridor and places like California members tend to be more accepting of diversity in points of view, but nowhere will you likely ever feel fully accepted. This is just my opinion, but I do not think your kids can be involved in any way with the church and avoid indoctrination – it’s what they do and it’s what Sunday meetings are set up for (even in these days of home centered/church supported gospel instruction).
I hope you find the peace you seek.
I navigated those spaces as a non-believer taking my tween and toddler to church up until 2020. I found that assuming that I owned my church engagement, was very specific in what I contributed to and what I would walk away from, and was proud to be a “Christmas and Easter” Mormon in essence make that possible.
There are books written by Christian Kimball and Patrick Mason that may be helpful. The podcast “At Last She Said It” may also be useful to you.
The book “The Art of Gathering” may inspire you in your community connection efforts. There is an “Uplift Kids” website and movement that focuses on/champions wisdom and values for our children from a variety of sources that might also help you.
Your local library may have a sharing resources community vibe. Some of them have gotten more creative and include shared community resources (instead of just books).
I do not feel comfortable going back this last year because there is a 6 year age gap between my kids. The youngest is almost 8 now and would absorb a lot of black and white thinking that she would dump onto her older sister (who would treat it as being shamed and react) and then my youngest would display the self-righteous indignation common to that developmental period. Whether this was on more conservative mindsets championed by the the church, the importance of the temple (and related worthiness), to authoritative statements on the characteristics of God (that I don’t agree with) being points of arguments – whatever. For me, I could not scaffold ahead of time the conversations with my youngest that would cover the disparity of ethics between the ethics I uphold and the church’s ethical standards and expectations of the members. It was a more sustainable choice for me to set very specific very limited standards of engagement with church activities (parties & service activities pretty much).
I have friends from the stake that I cultivate relationships with on mutual terms. I usually proactively set the boundaries, but I do pay attention to setting up our friendship environment so that I am not going against their ethics in my boundaries.
Mormonism is my heritage. One of the values that stabilized my faith transition was the personal adoption of the motto, “God may Fail – but Charity Never Faileth” – [NOTE: My faith transition took a deeper dive into the existence of God – which was totally a “me” situation. Most individuals in faith transition don’t wind up going there] which I wouldn’t have had if I hadn’t been engaged in with Relief Society. I do miss the support of the community, and I mourn that my path took me into a place where I have to build community instead of just walking into it.
It has always been my view that this life is meant to be a “classroom experience”. As we move through this life we have our successes and our failures.
It was never meant to be a smooth transition.
Me and my family were inactive for about 8 years. Frankly, I missed church, the members & the culture.
We came back on our own terms. Slowly at first & than picked up involvement along the way.
We started off in the “inner city” branch. We were the minority. It was a great experience. The branch
was later combined with the suburban wards.
My wife is more active than I am. She plays piano & directs music. I like family history & working with computers.
My teaching (which is rare) is one on one. There is no classroom or class. Family history is not a priority in our
corner of the kingdom. That’s fine with me. And the closest temple is 3+ hours round trip. Needless to say, we don’t go.
I go to the temple recommend interview & tithing settlement now. We didn’t when we first came back. I can answer all
the questions & not feel guilty. (I have no idea why I have a TR or attend tithing settlement.) That may change.
All (3) of our grown children are inactive. Some have joined other churches. All seem to be happy & involved in
their community. I am very proud of them.
To answer your question: yes we are back. And we’ve made it work on our own terms.
It is not the same as when we were all in. I like it better this way. I won’t change a thing.
Welcome to StayLDS. I never really left, other than taking a nice long break during the covid years. In my experience it can work but as I adjust my boundaries I’ve found that I have to also adjust my expectations of what “working” means.
Disheveled_chonmage wrote:
My kids are not Mormon, and they are the reason why I don’t go back. Is it possible to be a non-believing member with children? Is it possible to get the benefits of the community for children while also avoiding the indoctrination? I wouldn’t pay tithing or agree to teaching callings, and it may just end up being painful for my kids. My gut feeling is that teenagers would be more ostracized even though younger children may not be.
That’s a tough one.
If your kids are at least 9 years old the missionaries and other ward leaders are probably going to ask after whether they want to be baptized and take the discussions. If they’re less than 9 it will come from Primary leaders. I hesitate to use the phrase apply pressure because I do believe their motives are altruistic but it can feel like unyielding pressure to people on the receiving end.
I’d also expect that this pressure would be applied to both you and to your children, meaning your kids would be subject to some of that in classes and in hallways when you aren’t around. Again, I don’t assume any bad motives by anyone at church, it’s just what happens. I don’t believe anyone is plotting, “Let’s work on her kids when she’s not around.” I believe their motives are pure and that it’s a persistent concern with many members. It’s instinctual.
I truly don’t know whether it’s possible to get the benefits of the community while avoiding the indoctrination. Everyone’s experience is different but my experience has mostly been that the indoctrination is the only thing that remains of the community. I’ll reel that back a little and say that things have been better for me in recent years than say 10-15 years ago. Back then the mantra was every community event had to have a gospel purpose. I don’t hear as much of that anymore.
That said, I’ve seen what used to be YM/YW camp being a week long campout with some gospel elements turn into a three day day-camp at the stake center with workshops that are all about indoctrination. I get the impression that church leaders are very concerned about youth retention rates and unfortunately their method of addressing the issue has been to decrease the fun and increase indoctrination. They might believe that youth leave the church because they never developed a testimony, so many youth activities are geared towards getting kids to develop a testimony.
I’m sure every ward/stake has it’s on culture within a culture, but that’s been my observation.
If you’re good at setting and maintaining boundaries and your kids are good at doing the same, it can work out. Even then, I’d be concerned with unbaptized kids attending church. They may get no pressure at all from leaders but feel an inward pressure to conform. They’ll see friends go to the temple, pass sacrament, go on missions, etc. and may feel some pressure due to being the odd man out.
Not that there’s anything wrong with your kid wanting to join the church, go on a mission, etc., I’m just putting it out there as a possibility and to be prepared for something like that.
Disheveled_chonmage wrote:
Is being a non-believing Mormon any worse than being a non-believing member at another church?
I went through a period of time where I visited other churches once a month. I never attended one church long enough to feel like a part of their group. Maybe the discomfort comes from feeling like you’re a member of the group but also feeling like you’re not accepted by your tribe. I never felt like any other church was my tribe, so not believing their doctrines never became an issue.
Shooting from the hip, I think it’s probably harder to be a non-believing Mormon than being a non-believing member at some other church. Other churches don’t typically exclude people from events based on their standing with the church. Like with Mormonism where you have to have a temple recommend to do participate in certain events or hold specific callings.
I get the sense that it would be much harder to make a new connection with a church where you didn’t believe vs. the scenario where the connection is pre-existing and you didn’t believe.
It’s like going to the pound to adopt an old dog with lots of demanding medical issues vs. going to the pound, adopting a puppy, the puppy growing old with you, and then the dog develops lots of demanding medical issues. It’s easier to take on the demanding medical issues when there’s already a relationship whereas demanding medical issues may serve as a deterrent to adopting the older dog and ever developing a relationship.
There are people that are fine with adopting the older dog. At least they know what they’re signing up for.
I had partial success… After I crossed the line into disaffection/unbelief, I was asked to teach Gospel Essentials. I felt like a bit of a traitor doing so, as it was inauthentic in certain lessons. But I was very successful at it. The Gospel Doctrine attendees started flocking to my Gospel Essentials class to the point the Bishop mandated that you had to be in the Ward mission or with an investigator to attend. So, I was getting a ton of positive feedback for my work as a teacher which took the edge off what I was doing. Then, suddenly, I was released and it blew my bubble entirely. I think if the Bishop had’ve known about my posts here at the time, and how I was on the edge of activity, he might have not released me. He affirmed that I did nothing wrong, though, when I asked. It seemed odd to me I would be released when it was working so well, and they had nothing else to call me to.
I continued attending but it was kind of a hollow experience. And then, I found out from a naive but well-meaning member that the leadership was very negative about me behind my back.
We then started attending a different Ward due to bullying of our daughter in our home ward. They accepted us, surprisingly, but my unwillingness to serve really ticked them off, and eventually they dropped us.
Where did I get my community then? From my hobbies. I ran a small music production company for 10 years part-time, and I forged a lot of good relationships with the other musicians. Not all, but there was a core of them who were good friends. We didn’t get deep into each other’s life issues, but there was comradery and there was a single mother who played keyboard that I sort of took under my wing, checking in on her during hurricanes and helping her wherever I could.
I also started volunteering in the community in a quasi-government entity meant to revitalize an area of town near where I lived. Here, I made a whole bunch of new friendships and relationships. I saw that many of the problems we face with volunteerism in the church exist in other organizations, and I also learned that in many ways, church members are exceptional. They tended to gossip less and and be more interested in relationships for their own sake than the people in the non-profit where I worked. This work also got me noticed in my full-time work, with my boss offering me a leadership position saying “people have been watching your work in the community, and the success you had there couldn’t have occurred if you didn’t have leadership skills”.
So, based on my experience, I would suggest getting involved in a community service organization of some kind. There you can serve as much as you want as there are no expectations drawn from temple covenants, and there is greater respect for your agency in service. There you will find yourself part of a community and can invest your time in meaningful projects that help the local community. Also, the results “return on investment” was higher for me in the community service context than in the church. A lot of what I did in the church didn’t bear fruit, while in the community, I had a lot of tangible results. Stuff that I look back on today with fondness.
Disheveled_chonmage wrote:
I miss socializing with people who are in a different stages of life, the community rituals and singing together, and having a place where people seem to genuinely be interested in building up a “kingdom of God,” if you will.My kids are not Mormon, and they are the reason why I don’t go back. Is it possible to be a non-believing member with children? Is it possible to get the benefits of the community for children while also avoiding the indoctrination? I wouldn’t pay tithing or agree to teaching callings, and it may just end up being painful for my kids. My gut feeling is that teenagers would be more ostracized even though younger children may not be.
I went to an RS activity and babysat some kids from the ward. I can’t believe how integrated I am, considering how little effort I’ve put into it. We’ve tried other churches, one in particular for 3 years, and I still haven’t found a way to connect with people. I feel like the other churches are so large that people aren’t as invested in the individual people and community. Or maybe it’s that they rely on the paid clergy and so are less personally invested in making things work? I honestly don’t know.
I would like to ask how things have turned out for some of you, especially if you have children who are a little older now.
God, I miss it. There’s no going back to Eden, but can you hang around outside of the walls? Is being a non-believing Mormon any worse than being a non-believing member at another church?
Mormon community can be really great when it works. I remember inviting kids to my kid’s birthday parties. The response rate from the LDS families was almost 100%. One family had a prior commitment but even dropped off a gift with well wishes and regrets that they could not attend.
I have been in the same ward for about a decade and have not paid tithing. I have worked with several bishops in their attempts to have me do so. I have held and performed callings but a few years ago they called me as ward and temple family history leader. Then after about 6 months, I was told that the SP said that this calling required a TR and I was being released. Far from being thanked for the work that I did in this calling there seemed to be palpable resentment that this calling did not inspire me to start paying tithing and hold a TR again.
[Side note: I have been pretty circumspect about my true feelings and level of testimony lest full honesty might close the door to church privileges in the future but I’m currently wondering if I haven’t chosen the route of death by 1000 cuts rather than a more swift separation. I’ve chosen to give church leaders hope and maybe they feel led on.]
I have not had a calling since. We attend church about every other week and my priest age son blesses the sacrament. We do not go to second hour. My son has been challenged to go to second hour and to attend Wednesday night activities (He attends the Wednesday night activities that he wants to and doesn’t attend the ones that don’t interest him). My son self reports as a full tithe payer and my daughter self reports as a part tithe payer.
Lately, I have begun to feel ostracized from the LDS community. We went to a scholarship luncheon and we were assigned a table with another LDS family with a child going into the same field as my daughter and it was a super awkward, almost painful experience. Not only was there not a feeling of comradery and bonding over shared experiences but ultimately my wife and I felt that it would have been better had we been seated with complete strangers.
There was a stake youth activity with a bunch of parents that were on the sidelines. I tried to make conversation but it was not picked up. Maybe it is just in my head, but I feel like I have been written off by the local LDS community. They tried and tried to get me to more fully reactivate and now they are done with me.
In contrast, I recently went to a Spanish language FHE that the missionaries invited me to. Although some of those present live in my same town, they all attend at the Spanish language branch that meets an hour away. It was like switching on a light switch, everyone was so warm and welcoming.
In summary, I believe there will always be a tension for people like us that may attend the LDS church and not be “all in.” There will be people pushing you to be all in, you will need to establish and maintain boundaries, and then people will be suspicious of you and your motives and they may distance themselves from you.
Epilogue: My children and I have diversified our social groups pretty well in the broader community. I sit on a community board for the city development commission and I coach for the Special Olympics team. My wife is on the board for the Homeschool Association. My children are co-chairs for the library teen advisory board and we/they volunteer a bunch in the community. We participate in several churches and part of the reason my son doesn’t always attend the LDS activities is that he is considering the activities offered at the other churches who compete for his attention. At the same time that we have many diverse friends from different social groups, it does feel that there is not the same depth of connection that we once felt as “all in” LDS members.
Roy wrote:
In summary, I believe there will always be a tension for people like us that may attend the LDS church and not be “all in.” There will be people pushing you to be all in, you will need to establish and maintain boundaries, and then people will be suspicious of you and your motives and they may distance themselves from you.This above sort of summarizes my own experience. But note that Roy has a strong service experience in the community and elsewhere. I think it’s good to find those relationships in the community which provides another place to belong. And it’s a lot more friendly to people who set boundaries around their service.
The short version: I never have left, but I continue on my own terms. That is a constant balancing act, and it helps a lot that I know how to speak fluent Mormon-ese.
Disheveled_chonmage, what are your thoughts or ideas? Have we been any help? For example, I personally don’t have a problem with anyone who comes to church Sunday services or
a cultural event for just the social contacts. You never know, you may find someone who feels the same way
you do.
I apologize for the late response, I am still figuring out the forum and wasn’t aware I had gotten replies. Thank you so much for your welcome DarkJedi, and for your thoughts. Your uncertainty about duplication of social aspects outside of the church has been on my mind as well. I think you are right about the indoctrination, too. That’s kind of the whole point of the church, isn’t it?
Just for reference, we live out in the Midwest, with not a lot of members nearby. I would say that there is an underlying “unease” with the members that we interact with, which probably can’t be helped. But yes, I think that since we are outside of Utah or Idaho, there seems to be a little more tolerance for our current activity level.
Thank you again.
Thank you AmyJ, I will look into these resources that you listed, I am unfamiliar with them. I very much appreciate your perspective on children’s development that comes with different ages. My oldest is 7, so I don’t have much experience with older kids. But absorbing the black and white thinking is a good point, and kind of ties into that indoctrination element. I certainly relate to feeling at a loss at scaffolding conversations so that my kids could benefit from the community without trapping them inside of it. I guess I’m influenced a bit by Richard Rohr here, in believing that there’s a different sort of faith in the second half of life.
I’m happy to hear that sticking to social events allowed you to continue friendships beyond your believing years. I will give some thought to your personal motto this week, I keenly feel a yearning for some great Good. Maybe charity is a fitting description for that.
Thank you for your time and for your insight about your experience as a parent.
Your experience is very interesting Minyan Man, I appreciate hearing your story. Your wife is very active, but not as a TBM, is that correct? Did you teach your children a more nuanced sort of faith, or just let them form their own opinions based on what they heard at church and their own observations?
I assume that you are answering temple questions in a nuanced but affirmative way, or did I misunderstand?
.
I am very happy to hear that your children are happy at where they are at in life now.
Your story is very interesting to me, thank you so much for your response.
Thank you nibbler, I thought that your dog adoption analogy was very insightful. I will be chewing it over this week. I agree with you about the pressure to go through the Mormon rituals. And yes, I think that people would be well-meaning. I do think that there is importance to community rituals that I don’t quite understand yet, so I’m not sure what to make of it. Some Mormon rituals are more costly than others (mission and temple requirements), but others seem more benign and help to build a social contract of trust among the members. But you’re right, the pressure would be there, for sure. I agree that not going through the rituals would make my kids feel left out as well.
I have wondered if the community aspect of the church is on a downward trajectory. The decline of the YM/YW program is a concern, and it sounds like that has been your experience, especially with camping.
Again, I appreciate your analogy. It’s a slightly different way to view the issue of going back. Thank you for your thoughts.
I am not able to respond tonight to the remaining comments, but hope to be able to do so tomorrow. Thank you everyone for your time and your thoughtful responses.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.