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Our high council speaker gave a good talk yesterday mainly on recognizing the spirit. He finished with a story about his son who was driving back home and when he crossed into Idaho texted his dad where he was. Shortly after that the father, the HC speaker, had the distinct impression that he needed to pray for his son’s safety and even though he was about late for work spent the next fifteen minutes on his knees “pleading” that his son would be protected. Shortly after finishing he got a call from his son who told him that he’d been in an accident. He was badly shaken but had only minor injuries and then a highway patrolman got on the phone and told him that his truck had spun on ice and rolled four times. With each successive roll the roof was crushed further and the patrolman said that with a fifth roll, his son would have been killed. The point was that his father listened and acted on the prompting and what was left unsaid but understood was that the father’s pleading saved his son’s life. What I can’t decide for myself is if the father hadn’t heeded the prompting, would the son have died? If that was the case it would seem that God had set up a test for the father but I can’t see that happening. Another question is that if he hadn’t responded to what he felt was the Spirit and exactly the same thing had happened, would he feel guilt thinking that he could have affected the out come if he’d been faithful?
There was a time when even with the level of faith that I once did have, I’d have taken the story at face value. But now I really don’t know.
I have no clue, really, but I tend to think experiences like this are real in some way. I also tend to think the father’s actions didn’t change anything, but rather that he was given an experience that strengthened his faith, for whatever reason I can’t understand – since not everyone has that sort of experience. I don’t discount it, simply because I know of too many experiences that are similar in some unexplainable way – but I have no clue why they happen or why they only happen to some people. All I can say is that I’m convinced the reason for the difference has nothing to do with worthiness.
I’m with Ray on this one. Faith promoting experiences are just that – it’s hard to say whence they come, but they really do bolster your faith. I can’t imagine the prayer really resulted in his son’s life being preserved and he would have died otherwise. But who knows? I can also say that those family ties are very strong at times, and when a family member we love is in peril, those are times when I think we are particularly prone to spiritual experiences. Such a story could be faith-promoting, or shame-promoting. So many people have had terrible things happen, and “what if they could have somehow done something to prevent it?”
I do believe in prayer, but I also believe there’s a higher truth than we often realize.
Why didn’t the “spirit” prompt the son to pull over and rest? Why didn’t the “spirit” prompt the father to call the son and tell him to pull over? It seems the “spirit” is playing games. It knows what is going to happen, and can stop the whole thing, which it does in other faith promoting stories in the Ensign, GC talks, etc. In other cases it does not stop the accident, but keeps people from getting hurt. And in some cases people die. In every case it is a “faith promoting lesson”. How is this any different than there being no “spirit”, and things just happen? I also can’t imagine the father’s actions changing the outcome in any way. I try not to judge stories such as this too harshly, but from my youth I have held them suspect because of my first hand experience of some stories that have been told publicly. For example imagine a child being in the room when the father receives the phone call, then afterhe hangs up the phone he says “I had an uneasy feeling before the phone rang.” A short time later the story is told that he had an uneasy feeling and said a silent prayer before the phone rang. Even later the story is told in sacrament meeting the way it is written above. I know some people are anxious to have faith promoting experiences, but unfortunately when children observe the “wrong” things it only makes believing these stories difficult.
Like you, GBSmith, at one point I would have taken the experience at face value and shared it when I felt it was appropriate. Also like you, I now question it. As Sheldon alludes to, why does God “inspire” some people and not others, even in the same situation? My Grandmother (may she rest in peace) used to have “feelings” about such things – she knew when someone close to her was in trouble or danger. Not only was she not LDS (we have no monopoly on the “spirit”), she was not religious at all, but not an atheist. Her feelings were almost always correct, and I only qualify that because she may have been wrong and not shared, but I don’t recall a time when she was wrong (but sometimes she didn’t share that she “had a feeling” until after the fact). I won’t deny that your story actually happened, and in fact I’m pretty sure it did. But, as others have said, I don’t know why and I doubt his prayer had anything to do with the outcome of the incident – just as Grandma knowing had no impact on the outcome. Possibilities that I am comfortable with: 1) Some form of premontion or foreboding that we do not understand but does seem to occur to some people at some times. This could have meant that the accident already occured and the father was made aware of this through supernatural means.
2) Our perception colors every experience we have and several coincidences can be pieced together to form a miracle.
3) As Orson mentioned, sometimes the stories grow or take on additional faith promoting details over time. This is not always intentional.
I personally cannot allow the hand of God in this outcome because it would unravel certain foundational elements of my post crisis world view. This doesn’t mean that I am right – just that I am trying to take ownership for why my worldview has certain limits.
I honestly don’t know anymore. There are tendencies to broadcast to the world experiences like these where feelings and outcomes are in close proximity, and then remain silent about the times one has feelings and there are no associated outcomes. Ultimately what matters is the speaker believed it was God working in his life. And this belief will now direct his behavior in the future, presumably.
Roy wrote:Possibilities that I am comfortable with:
1) Some form of premontion or foreboding that we do not understand but does seem to occur to some people at some times. This could have meant that the accident already occured and the father was made aware of this through supernatural means.
I thought about that later and it seems a good possibility.
The other thing I’ve wondered about is if or even how much God intervenes in our lives unbidden. It seems like an agency issue. If God/the Spirit were stepping in all the time then what is the point of our having choice. My wife’s theory is that we have guardian angels that are ready to help but can’t unless asked. Then, of course, the help we get may be what we need but not what we asked for. Just a thought.
GBSmith wrote:Roy wrote:Possibilities that I am comfortable with:
1) Some form of premontion or foreboding that we do not understand but does seem to occur to some people at some times. This could have meant that the accident already occured and the father was made aware of this through supernatural means.
I thought about that later and it seems a good possibility.
The other thing I’ve wondered about is if or even how much God intervenes in our lives unbidden. It seems like an agency issue. If God/the Spirit were stepping in all the time then what is the point of our having choice. My wife’s theory is that we have guardian angels that are ready to help but can’t unless asked. Then, of course, the help we get may be what we need but not what we asked for. Just a thought.
I agree with you GBS, and will take it a step further. I doubt God usually intervenes even when asked, perhaps for the same reason. If God were to help one individual he may have to trample the free agency of another to do so. It could also be like the old sailor analogy – if a sailor heading west prays for wind to get him to his destination and his prayer in answered, the sailor heading east will have a more difficult time reaching his destination. I see very little of God intervening in people’s lives – but I do see lots of people who hope and believe he does.
DarkJedi wrote:I doubt God usually intervenes even when asked, perhaps for the same reason. If God were to help one individual he may have to trample the free agency of another to do so. It could also be like the old sailor analogy – if a sailor heading west prays for wind to get him to his destination and his prayer in answered, the sailor heading east will have a more difficult time reaching his destination. I see very little of God intervening in people’s lives – but I do see lots of people who hope and believe he does.
“Angels cheer for both sides.”
One possibility is that “the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.” -Luke 17:21 or 22
Maybe the spirit we feel in our own ways, can tap into the objective all-seeing truth of God and can shed light on things we are less aware of when we are in our usual “ego” state. There’s a tendency to think that everything I think or feel is a result of external forces, when really, I am the one thinking and feeling.
That’s not to suggest that “its ALL in our heads” – but that much of how we interpret things is – our subjective interpretation. I believe there is a God – a Heavenly Father and Mother, who love us enough to trust us to learn by trial and error – active faith, and that it will more likely be smooth, when we find ways to tap into the divinity within.
Before joining the church I had experiences that were difficult to explain, I put it down to premonition, a bit of ESP, a bit of intelligent guessing, etc. After joining the church I put it down to hearing or feeling the spirit as it was nice and easy to compartmentalise it like that. I like the direct prompt and outcome scenarios that happen to me -I can believe and trust in those
conflicted testimony wrote:Before joining the church I had experiences that were difficult to explain, I put it down to premonition, a bit of ESP, a bit of intelligent guessing, etc. After joining the church I put it down to hearing or feeling the spirit as it was nice and easy to compartmentalise it like that.
I think that at some point in all communication, accuracy is sacrificed for simplicity and conciseness.
Quote:I like the direct prompt and outcome scenarios that happen to me -I can believe and trust in those
I believe, & suggestions like “string theory” imply, that God or higher dimensions are made up of potential – possibilities.If believing something helps you – inspires belief, faith, trust in a higher power, that continues to motivate you in productive ways, then that is GOoD, IMO.
I realize this is an aging conversation, but I wanted to address the fact that these things happen to some and don’t happen to others. I don’t know how familiar everyone on this board is with near death experiences, but I have found they can teach some important principles. I don’t necessarily prescribe to any specific near death experience, however there are concepts that come up repeatedly in near death experiences across cultures, religions, and age groups. One of these is the principle that God uses the various things in our lives to teach us specifically what we need to grow. Essentially, some of life experience is shared because we all learn what we need from it, but each unique trial and blessing is turned to our benefit. Not that everything is necessarily predestined, but God uses each situation to teach us despite our good use or misuse of free will.
I find that principle consistent with the Mormon understanding of this life, consistent with my personal experience with God, and a principle that can explain why one person might have a certain type of spiritual experience and another doesn’t. It also helps answer the question of whether the father changed the fate of his son in that given situation. I believe that our prayers have the potential to change outcomes, but beyond that Heavenly Father provides us with situations to learn from. If the dad had not listened to the prompting to pray, would he have learned an essential life lesson through a different outcome or through the same outcome despite not acting on a spiritual prompting? Would the son have learned what he needed to through death or through continuing his life despite his dad’s lack of action? I believe the answer to those questions and other similar ones are the most telling in what the outcome might have been if the father had not acted on his prompting.
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