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Hello to all. I am anxious to become an active participant on the site. Let me start by telling about myself and my situation. I am hoping that many of you can offer me some good advice because I am sure many of you have dealt with my exact situation. I was raised in the church by an extremely true believer mother and a father who I thought until recently was completely dedicated and fully believing, only recently he has shared his doubts with me and it has been wonderful to learn that he is struggling in exactly the same way as I am. Anyways when I was 18 I decided that I had to “know” for sure if the church was indeed the one. So I took about 6 months to read the BOM in its entirety for the first time and was earnestly looking for an answer. The night that I finished reading Moroni 10. I prayed and prayed for hours and felt nothing. I remember feeling extremely upset at God for not giving me an answer because I was following the formula that Moroni layed out. I read and reread his promise many times to ensure I was doing everything correctly, and I certainly had real desire and faith that the answer would come, but still after several hours no answer came to me. That night for the first time I considered the possibility that maybe it wasn’t the one and only truth as I had been led to believe my whole life, but I could not accept that resolution and wanted so badly for the church to be true. Honestly I was afraid to think that maybe it wasn’t. So I kind of suppresed my doubts and told myself that God would answer me in due time.
Over the next several months I had my first exposure to the problems with church history as I was researching online about gaining a testimony, and at the time i chose to ignore all of it and relied on the explanations of numerous apologist sites. Like I said, I could not accept in my mind that it was not true. One day I was at church with my family during the Christmas season and the choir was doing a special presentation. The music they were performing was selected portions of Handel’s Messiah(which I consider the most beautiful piece of music ever composed in the history of mankind) Anyways as the choir was singing I felt my emotions stir, the hair on the back of my neck stood up and I felt good and peaceful. I took this at the time to be the answer I was looking for. I convinced myself that God had answered my prayers.
I went on to serve a mission, and truthfully hated the whole experience. I did not see the sense in many of the rules such as no communication with my family, and I felt that in my mission the leaders were far too pushy in their approach. I hated the constant pressure and feelings of guilt that occured when I didn’t baptize. I don’t believe the Lord works that way. Sadly it took 1 1/2 years for me to figure out that as long as I was giving an honest whole hearted effort the Lord would be pleased. Only after I realized this and ignored the constant pressure and forced guilt did I begin to actually feel like I was doing the Lord’s work.
Well I finished my mission and actually met my wife while I was there, she was a missionary as well and we went home at the same time (honorably, if you’re wondering). I’ll spare the details, although I feel no need to justify myself in having married a fellow missionary, I know it conjures up negative thoughts in most Mormon minds. Just know that we did nothing wrong other than chat over the phone for the last couple of weeks we were there. And if that is a sin than yes I am guilty and feel no shame for having done so. Anyways my wife is wonderful and I love her she has helped me to be a better person. So after we got married we always went to church, never questioned anything and tried to serve with our whole hearts. Then some point in the last several months I began to question that testimony experience that I thought I had received. I realized that many times I felt the exact same feelings while listening to other beautiful music outside of church, or watching good movies, or reading different things, and I realized that because I had wanted an answer so badly I had convinced myself that God had given me the “burning in the bosom” when in fact it was simply emotion because I was listening to the most beautiful music ever written and it’s about Jesus.
I then started to look into church history again and trying to find a real answer. I still continue to pray for answer, but maybe I will never get it because as it is right now, I don’t believe God will ever give me the burning in the bosom about Mormonism. I clearly have no desire to leave the church which is why I am here. I love the principles the church teaches. I believe the principles are the best that are found in organized religion. The church teaches us to try and become like the savior, to love and serve others, to give of ourselves, free agency, W.O.W (although, I really think I would enjoy the occasional glass of wine), and so many other doctrines that I feel are of God and help us to live better lives and become better people. Thankfully for many years I have realized that God does not judge us according to our acts or works, but according to who we have become because of our acts.
Anyways now I find myself no longer able to ignore the problems with our history, but not wanting to leave at all. But now I question how in the world I can reconcile my doubts and my desire to stay. I have read the essay on the main page and found it extremely helpful. But my question to all of you, and hopefully some of you may have good input for me is what to do about my wife and about giving priesthood blessings. My wife is still very much a true believer, I have shared my doubts with her and her reaction is to cry for days. I tell her that I feel I have been enlightened, she tells me that she thinks I have been deceived. This is obviously causing a huge wedge between us, but I refuse to pretend that everything is rosy and I am a true believer. I love her more than anything and do not want this separation that now exists between us. She asked me the other day about how I feel about giving priesthood blessings and I did not know how to answer. I question wether I really have any special authority. How can I possibly give blessings? Also what about the kids? I would like to raise them in the church, but with open minds. I cringe to think of them standing up in sacrament meeting and saying, “I know this church is true, I know Tommy is a true prophet, etc..”
How can I possibly raise them to be open minded, but still take the good principles from the church and partake of the buffet as I am currently doing when my wife thinks completely opposite of me. I don’t know what to do about this. Please help with any suggestions or experiences. I look forward to hearing from all of you and thank you for having this site wherein we can come and speak our minds freely.
Welcome. Your story certainly is one to which many here can relate.
First suggestion: Read the existing post on the topics of Priesthood blessings. It is entitled “Honest Faith vs. Just Being Nice” and can be found at:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=509 There are some really good thoughts there. Feel free to comment on that thread, which will bring it to the top of the “active topics” list.
Welcome to the site! You can bless your family if you have faith. I second Ray’s comment – that thread should be useful to you! I had the same experience in terms of Moroni’s promise. But over the decades, I have noticed very small but very significant promptings, thoughts, ticklings of the mind that together point to the usefulness of the book, in helping me understand not only God, but my own condition.
It took you six months to read? I know people that did it in a day or two. I don’t think I’ve ever done it in less than two months, myself.
It is easy to miss the ‘tender mercies’ of the Lord, when we are looking for God in the storm, the lightning, the quake, the thunder. I hope that is not what you are doing. As members of the Church, it seems the setting of impossibly high expectations is the norm. That’s been my experience.
HiJolly
Welcome!!! Hi Believeroftruth I guess all of us here feel a great deal of sorrow when reading your post especially the separation that you are feeling between you and your wife. We will all be having a lot of conversations over the next while but I would like to suggest a few things.
1. You fit the pattern of a questioning member almost to a T, which means that you are not alone and that lots of people have gone through this and come out the other side. There are a batch of podcasts available on this site or through iTunes (you don’t need an ipod or player to hear them, just get them downloaded to your computer and use your computer’s media player). I would suggest that you listen to John Dehlin’s story (the first is #26). Then listen to the full set of Fowler’s stages of faith. You are in stage 4 and hopefully edging towards stage 5 while your wife is firmly seated in stage 3 (committed believer), it will help to understand that you are in a process and that you will have a stronger, more nuanced faith when you come out the other side.
2. Music is one of the major ways that the Holy Ghost touches all human beings. The feelings that you have are real and honest and true promptings of the spirit. In my quirkier moments I quite happily argue that the creation of the universe was done by singing everything into existence.
3. Sadly, this “burning in the bosom” business is way too strong in the early “indoctrination” of our children. It can happen, yes, but the more important sign is a deep feeling of peace and a sense that something is simply “right”. It can be easily missed but there is no need to wait for a tumultuous body wrenching event to feel that the Holy Ghost has spoken. Remember he/she is the “still small voice”. This feeling comes over me most often out of the blue and I think when reading the scriptures it is more important to pray before you read that the Holy Ghost will be with you and ask sincerely for wisdom in interpretation, and then just get on with it. It will come, it is kind of like riding a bike I suspect, if you think too much about it you start wobbling and fall over but once it is ingrained it starts to happen.
So that’s all I have to say for the moment. Welcome, this is a good place to share, we are all struggling and with different issues. Love your wife, express that love openly, care for her, serve her and serve others it will all help.
Welcome here, BoT! I went through experiences very similar to yours. As a teen, I read the Book of Mormon and (how presumptuously!) prayed for an instant answer. At age 15 (my first conversion) I knew the Book of Mormon had brought me closer to God (or a growth in faith). Begin
Stage 3–Synthetic Conventional faithFowler Stage 4–Individuated Reflective faithA couple of years later I had been working as a Wikipedia editor and administrator as well as with a group of Colorado City (FLDS) child bride activists, and “seeing that which was good among them,” I began to open my heart to people of all stripes of faith including atheism. At this point words fail me as I recall what happened to me spiritually on October 27, 2003 and thereafter. Suddenly I had a faith, a vision, a reality that was huge, uncontainable, indescribable. It wouldn’t fit in any container. No organization or person could do it justice. It applied to everybody, and it applied to me.
So you see there is more for you yet. And there is more for me. Onward at our own pace toward
Fowler Stage 5–Conjunctive FaithTom
Welcome, believer!! You have definitely found the right place.
I’m going to contradict the previous posts a little. I think it’s fabulous that it only took you six months. I’ve needed six months to get through 1 and 2 Nephi!
Also, I think that feeling “the Spirit” is different for everyone, partly because, in my mind, it’s not coming from an external force but rather an internal one.
Your comments were exactly how I felt and where I was a little over a year ago. The one difference is that my wife wasn’t raised really hard-core orthodox so, as we communicated openly and honestly, we made progress towards accepting each others differences. This wasn’t easy and there were long crying sessions till 4 in the morning, sometimes.
And, I think, that’s the key. The orthodox TBM view is that husband and wife have to be one: in thought, in action, in spirit, in testimony, etc., etc.
This is damaging at a variety of levels, not the least of which is that this thought comes at a price; usually it means the couple stops communicating in open, honest ways, stops sharing intimate thoughts, and begin to resent each other for not being able to be open and honest and intimate.
I have no idea how your relationship with your spouse will turn out, but I do know that there are choices to be made, choosing each other and your love for each other instead of ideology or image or whatever is holding that love back.
That doesn’t mean one of you needs to cave to the others thought process, rather that each of you need to discover the beauty in differences, the joy in diversity, the peace of following the “light” inside each of us, even when it means something different to each of us.
Your spot is tricky at best, but I have to assume that your participation here on this forum could be an enormous help to you.
Good luck!
Welcome BoT! You have come to a good place. You can read my intro if you want, but as a quick note, I am TBM (although unorthodox), while DH is not. He went through his crisis of faith back in May. When he told me, I was devasted. I cried alot. He told me he would not interfere with DC’s religious instruction, and he knew that to do that, he would have to remain active in the church. I had no idea how that could even be done. So, I went searching and found John’s essay, and this site.
One of the posters here directed me to FacesEast, which is a site for LDS believing spouses whose partners are not believers. It helped me alot. StayLDS has also helped us both tremendously. We have made it through the toughest part, which was learning how to love and accept each other without conditions. I had to come to the realization that DH had done nothing wrong, that asking questions was not a sin.
We had to decide that our marriage was more important to us than anything else, and then act accordingly. I guess the best way to describe it would be as though DH and I are like a trapeze team. There we were, doing our tricks, lots of long tosses and the like. I was never afraid of letting go of him because I knew there was a net to catch me (my temple marriage). But when DH became disaffected, that net was no longer “guaranteed”. At that point I had 3 choices: 1) Force DH to go back to TBM status, thus giving me the ILLUSION of a safety net, 2) Quit the trapeze team, climb down and leave the circus, or 3) HOLD TIGHT TO MY HUSBAND and get on with the show. I chose number 3, so did he. I cannot express to you what a difference this has made in our marriage. We are closer than we have ever been. Amazing, that by dropping the net, my marriage is actually safer, stronger and happier.
Be patient with your DW. This is a difficult process, but it can be done. I have a different view of the priesthood than my DH, but I consider him worthy in every way to bless and ordain our children and serve in callings. Go slow as you navigate this path, and respect your DW’s beliefs, as you want her to respect yours. There will be ups and downs, and all the other challenges of life will still be there, but it can be done.
Hang in there! And rely on the people who post here, they are really caring and smart.
Hello and welcome. I hope you enjoy it here. I do. I have learned a lot. Its nice to just finally tell the truth and to know you aren’t going to get a nice healthy fruiting afterwards.
I wonder if the church created a problem for itself when it started reinforcing the “Moroni’s Promise” program. I think it sets up a lot of people for failure….and that could be for many reasons as faith and worthiness and the state of the heart would be as individual as the people themselves… not to mention being in constant fluxuation and being influenced by how Father might be dealing with one specific child vs. another.
I have always found the spiritual program teachings to be limiting and I tire of them quickly. I feel it limits the Lord and it limits my view of what the Lord my be doing with my life. But I don’t always think that this means I should discard them. I think rather it means that I am not looking deeply enough or broadly enough for the real meanings.
With regards to the BofM. I love the book. I can’t walk away from it. It has meant so very much to my life. I have read it many times and studied it. I have felt the spirit in a variety of different ways…some personal/some doctrinal/and some were a kind, Godly kick in the pants.
I don’t say that to convince you. Only to illustrate another possibility with regards to how Moroni’s promise might work.
And if it helps for commiseration purposes, I struggled with my mission too. I never felt truly empowered to share the word. Sometimes the programs, reports, etc did interfere with the work. I do think, though, that the church has improved things. But as other things, perhaps progress is slow.
Anyway….looking forward to your contributions.
Poppy
Welcome to the community! Thanks for sharing your story. You are not alone, not by a long shot. I am really touched by your focus on the good, and of compassion to your wife and children.
Definitely read the thread Ray linked about priesthood blessings. I am in a similar boat, and shared some of my experiences in that thread. I found a way to continue offering that service, and still find it spiritually uplifting, in spite of the reservations I had. I see it much different now.
This is a great community where people can discuss things openly in a positive atmosphere. We’re all on the same journey as you, trying to make the Church work for us, and to find new faith. Yes, I also see it as an enlightenment, or a maturing of faith. It is scary to people who have not yet been called to go through that process (and may never go this route).
Go slooooooooooow with your wife. Show lots of extra love and attention. Remember that in her mind, your doubts in the Church are perceived as threats to your marriage and exaltation status. These are POWERFUL emotions for more believing spouses, who sometimes process this emotionally like a divorce (or threat of it). Let her see how you do not change, and in fact probably become happier, while slowly sharing. It’s a balancing act. Give lots of reassurance.
Val….you always have such loving posts. Thank you. How hard all of this is for everyone. Hi BoT, I’m so glad you found us! I relate completely with what you’re going through, it’s a tough time. I remember the nights with all the tears, hang in there – it gets better!
I found it helped to remain open, and express openness with my wife. “I don’t have all the answers” I’ll probably never have all the answers. I don’t want to shut the door on the church. Some things take time to sort through, hopefully she can grant you some time if you’re willing to diligently sort (we’re all here to work together at that task). I don’t know if it would help her to know that you’re chatting with people who have been where you are – and have become comfortable again with full activity in the church. I hope that both of you can look forward to more harmonious days ahead – even if there is some journey to get there.
I’m happy to hear you like to look for the positive, that is a big key – and demonstrates a level of maturity.
We’ll have many suggestions for stepping stones on your journey, and look forward to your insights as well. One thing I think you should fully embrace is this is YOUR journey. Find the meanings that call to YOU personally. Nothing else will be enduring.
The way I tend to look at the differences between my and my DW’s views is much like a language barrier. When two people speak different languages it is difficult to communicate effectively. I didn’t feel that I could reasonably expect my DW to learn my language (what you might call the language of disaffection) – so I figured it was my job to learn to speak hers. After much contemplation I realized that my meanings don’t have to match my old preconceived definitions (that after all led to the confounding that I experienced) but they do need to be honest and meaningful definitions. This whole process is not easy, just as learning any new language is not easy, but in my opinion it is the key to finding my personal spirituality – and my integration back into the church.
My intro gives a flavor of how this journey started for me:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38 Like I said we’ll have much to discuss, I hope you enjoy your time here.
Welcome!
Thank you all for the replies. I will try to address each of your replies. (Divided into paragraphs this time, Thanks for fixing the last one Ray. I know it was a mess) First of all HiJolly, I don’t know what exactly you are getting at by asking why it took me 6 months to read the BOM. It did indeed. Remember that I was 18 at the time and although I wanted to know the truth 18 year olds usually have other things going on that they think are more important. I am sure you meant nothing by that comment, but it just came across as being offensive to me. I’m sorry if I misinterpreted. And yes I was indeed taking God at his word that he would cause my bosom to burn within me in regards to the truthfulness of Mormonism. I was not looking for thunder and lightning, I don’t think I was expecting too much. I was just looking for the experience that God had promised.
Johndehlin. Thank you. I do feel welcomed.
Bill Atkinson. Thank you very much for your understanding and sorrowing with me. Music is certainly an extremely powerful medium and I believe brings out our emotions, good or bad like nothing else can. I definitely understand that the spirit speaks in a still small voice. I believe I have felt it many times, but never in response to my specific question wether this is the ONLY true church on the earth. in Moroni’s promise and in D&C 9, The Lord makes a promise that your bosom shall burn and you will know. The formula seems so simple, but it never worked for me. Perhaps I was asking the wrong question. My question had always been, “is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints the only true church on the earth???” I am not expecting an earthquake or an angel to descend from above, but I have indeed been expecting this “burning” which has never come in response to that specific question. This is what has led me to this point. As I mentioned in my introduction, I do not believe the answer to this question will ever come as I had expected it to. The answer I feel I have received is that there is not only one truth. Yes there are universal truths, and religion is a pursuit of these truths. We all interpret them differently and in our own individual way. I believe that is the way God intended it to be or else we would not grow like we do when we pursue truth for ourselves. I believe God wants the search for truth to be an individual endeavor rather than an institutionalized teaching. The one single most important universal truth that I have found is that we must all strive to forget ourselves and dedicate our lives to serving others. I can honestly say that I have felt God (whoever or whatever he/she/it may be) speak to me and give understanding to my mind, so I believe I do know what it feels like to hear the “still small voice.” My point was not that I have never felt God touch my heart, but that the answer to that specific question never came.
Tom. What a journey it’s been so far. Hopefully we can all contribute to each other and collectively progress to whatever the end is for each of us.
Swimordie. I have lately been questioning the same thing as you believe. Wether or not we really feel an external power when we feel the “spirit” or wether we want to believe in something so badly that somehow physiologically we create powerful feelings within ourselves. However, there are a couple of experiences I have had which I hold very sacred where I am sure that some external force far greater than I can imagine gave me peace and comfort. I would definitely agree though that many times we create our own inner peace by believing or wanting to believe in something so strongly. Our minds are extremely powerful and do create chemical and physical reactions inside of us. I appreciate your suggestions on how to reconcile this situation with my wife. She, and my children are certainly the most important things in the world to me. I believe we too will find a way to accept each others differences and both of us will grow from this experience.
Pinkpatent thank you for sharing your experience with me. I appreciate your encouragement and advice. Somehow I know we will make it through this and come to a “happy place” together. I know that she loves me wholeheartedly which is why this is so heartbreaking for her. I feel bad for what I am doing to her and can’t help but think that she would not have chosen me had I had these same problems years ago. Our love for each other is strong though and will carry us through.
Poppyseed. I too feel the BOM does contain wonderful principles to live by. And though I question the “official” version of it’s coming to light, I believe brother Joseph was inspired, wether he wrote it or translated it, to bring it to the world. Much like Buddha, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Wesley, Luther, Calvin, Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger, Tommy Monson and many more. I believe they are all among the prophets and all contributed and contribute to increase our understanding of God’s plan. I do believe the church is TRUE, but I believe it is one of the true churches. I also believe that Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Spritism,Ba’hai’s, Christianity in general(Baptists, Evangelicals, Catholics, Pentecostals, Jehovah’s Witnesses)etc are all God’s true church. All give different perspectives and unique insights on God’s plan for us. We must take the truth from wherever it comes and incorporate it into our lives.
Valoel. Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. I read the forum linked by Ray and found it extremely helpful. I still kind of feel wrong saying, “by the power of the Melchizedek priesthood which I hold” though. I very much enjoyed the posting, it may have even been yours, I don’t remember for sure, about how if I believe it and they believe it that it then becomes a special spritual experience for both of us, and I can then indeed act as an “agent” of God to help bring peace to their hearts and minds.
Orson. Thank you as well for your encouragement that we can and will make it through this. I believe we will as well. My wife after all is an extremely loving and understanding person. I hope she can say the same thing about me. I know I have broken her heart. I will tread slowly and carefully, but will be completely open and honest with her as you have suggested. It wouldn’t be fair to lead her on. She asked me to be completely honest and hold nothing back from her so that she can process it all and then decide how she is going to process it and work through this. What a wonderful person huh??
We will make it through. Thank you for your comments. I read your introduction and thought it was very powerful, moving, and enlightening.
believeroftruth wrote:First of all HiJolly, I don’t know what exactly you are getting at by asking why it took me 6 months to read the BOM. It did indeed.
At the risk of sounding evasive, I will say I specifically did not ask why it took you six months. I was surprised, is all.
Being born in the Church explains a lot of it, I think. Those that I know that read it within days were new to the Church and were so motivated to learn ‘truth’ that they devoured the book, where I had not been able to attack it with such vigor myself.
believeroftruth wrote:Remember that I was 18 at the time and although I wanted to know the truth 18 year olds usually have other things going on that they think are more important. I am sure you meant nothing by that comment, but it just came across as being offensive to me. I’m sorry if I misinterpreted.
No problem. The symbolism of words are problematic since most of us don’t have any other method to compare it to, so it seems the only way to communicate. Bleah.
believeroftruth wrote:And yes I was indeed taking God at his word that he would cause my bosom to burn within me in regards to the truthfulness of Mormonism. I was not looking for thunder and lightning, I don’t think I was expecting too much. I was just looking for the experience that God had promised.
Like I said, me too. I never got it the way I expected it. But the question I asked was answered, nonetheless. I was equating thunder and such to you and I having an unrealistic expectation. For some it happens, and I suppose for them it was not ‘unrealistic’. The scriptures are clear, though, that not all of us will have the same experience.
believeroftruth wrote:Valoel. Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. I read the forum linked by Ray and found it extremely helpful. I still kind of feel wrong saying, “by the power of the Melchizedek priesthood which I hold” though.
Recently in priesthood meeting we were admonished to say “by the authority of the MP”, not “by the power of the…” I agree with that distinction.
HiJolly
Quote:Poppyseed. I too feel the BOM does contain wonderful principles to live by. And though I question the “official” version of it’s coming to light, I believe brother Joseph was inspired, wether he wrote it or translated it, to bring it to the world. Much like Buddha, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Wesley, Luther, Calvin, Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger, Tommy Monson and many more. I believe they are all among the prophets and all contributed and contribute to increase our understanding of God’s plan. I do believe the church is TRUE, but I believe it is one of the true churches. I also believe that Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Spritism,Ba’hai’s, Christianity in general(Baptists, Evangelicals, Catholics, Pentecostals, Jehovah’s Witnesses)etc are all God’s true church. All give different perspectives and unique insights on God’s plan for us. We must take the truth from wherever it comes and incorporate it into our lives
Thank you for sharing your perspectives. There is no doubt in my mind that the BofM came while being surrounded by imperfect circumstances. I do appreciate when I learn something valuable from a neighboring perspective. And I appreciate your inclusive attitudes. For me though, I see that this process of evaluting truth and extracting it from a source must be accompanied with a great deal of discernment. Logic helps. History and facts help as do intuitions and common sense. Heck, I think all the human faculties help! But sometimes I think the limits of the human state makes having communications or spiritual capacities inside of us crucial and for me, I find myself checking in with God as I make these decisions or hear compelling conclusions as I think there are confusing errors out there too. I guess I have come back to my belief and trust in the Spirit of the God and the sanctification that makes such communications possible. But I appreciate too being able to expand my view of what God might be doing and how He might be working through out all the world. I know I wont’ always get it right and there most surely will be times where I will have to ammend my latest assumptions, but I do think God teaches us the truth and confirms also when some notion out there (or in here) is wrong.
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