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While waiting for my account to be activated, I was reading though this forum and it’s probably exactly what I need. My situation has some similarities to metalrain, but definitely some differences and I need help. I’m 19 years old, and I’ve been a member my entire life and so is my entire family: parents, siblings, grandparents, aunts and uncles, etc. I’ve attended church almost every week of my life, and held various callings in my wards. But I’ve never had a particularly strong testimony to begin with, I guess I’ve been mostly going through the motions.
The second half of my senior year I started to get pressure from my parents about serving a mission (it’s always been viewed as an assumption that I’d serve one, and with the age change they were expecting me to leave straight out of high school). I had discovered some things (only a little at the time) about church history that really troubled me. I told my parents I wasn’t sure if I believed, and I wasn’t sure if I wanted to go on a mission. Obviously they didn’t like it but they were supportive of me. BYU Provo was the only school I was admitted to, so here I am finishing up my second semester.
For the last several weeks I’ve been praying whether I should go on a mission or not, and have gotten nothing. I’ve spent hours and hours reading into church history, reading scanned ‘Times and Seasons’, fairmormon and lds.org articles, and became even more troubled.
The main things that trouble me the most are that:
1. Brigham Young taught the Adam-God theory for over 20 years, including at several General Conferences. It’s hard to believe that a prophet of God would teach false doctrine for such an extended time and in official church capacities.
2. The whole authenticity of the Book of Abraham being translated from papyri that’s 2000 years after Abraham and has nothing to do with him (and facsimile 1 being incorrectly translated). How can I believe in Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon if the Book of Abraham is fraudulent?
3. Joseph Smith and the Kinderhook Plates.
I’m the oldest of 5 kids, and right now my younger brother who’s about to graduate high school is working on his papers to go serve this summer. I don’t know about the family dynamics of my younger brother serving and me not going. My parents are asking me about my mission papers (all but complete so I could submit if I wanted), and so are my grandparents who live here in Provo.
I would love to believe. I wish there was a switch in my mind I could flick and fully believe, and then go serve a mission. But right now I don’t think I could go in good conscience, giving up EVERYTHING for two years (school, dating, entertainment, etc.) to go and teach something I don’t know to be true, yet telling everyone that I run into that it is. And if I came to the conclusion that it wasn’t true during my mission and came home, I’d lose my enrollment at BYU and have my transcript frozen, plus all of the family implications. I don’t feel like I can talk to anyone here at BYU without potentially risking expulsion and having my transcript revoked either.
Last week was my 120 day mark for my papers. If I go I’d like to have it as close to my availability date as possible. I couldn’t leave after fall semester next year either (even though I’m a freshmen I’m a sophomore by AP credit and applying to my major program this year to start the Junior core, something that you have to do both semesters of without breaks).
I don’t know what to do. I’d like to stay at BYU (inexpensive + scholarships, highly ranked in my major, liberal AP credit policy, etc) and reconcile my (extremely small) faith with this knowledge. I don’t want to/plan on leaving the church for so many reasons (“Regardless of your circumstances, your personal history, or the strength of your testimony, there is room for you in this Church” -Uchtdorf) but I don’t know about serving a mission.
Welcome. You are in a tough spot and I feel for you. Ultimately whether you serve a mission or not is going to be your decision – we can’t decide for you (and I realize you haven’t asked us to). I know that feeling of prayers bouncing off the ceiling and all you hear are crickets or the sound of your own heartbeat. I hope that you can gain some insight that will help you make you decision. Your future at BYU could hinge on it. First, there are a couple people you can talk to at BYU. Check out this article from about a year ago in BYU magazine:
http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=3306http://magazine.byu.edu/?act=view&a=3306” class=”bbcode_url”> Black and white thinking true believers often paint the church as all or nothing. That is not the case. It is possible that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the BoM and BoA are not what he claimed they are. Likewise, what he claimed they are and what the modern church claims they are are not necessarily the same. And, prophets have made mistakes – they are human and they are flawed. This is also true of ancient prophets. I’m not trying to be an apologetic, I’m just saying there are other points of view and neither are necessarily “wrong.”
I see that you have read “Come, Join With Us.” Pres. Uchtdorf is right – there is room for you and there are lots good people who desire to be closer to God and their Savior in the church. Some of the finest people I know are members – and some of the finest people I know are Catholic, Jewish, and Protestant. My mission was many years ago (I have a son on a mission now and a son who is a freshman at BYU preparing his papers), but I think it would be very difficult to serve with bigger doubts than those I had at the time. The zealotry cannot be described.
Is it possible for you to get your hands on The Crucible of Doubt? I just finished it and it spoke to me in many ways.
I feel for you, I know how difficult it is to learn things that don’t align with your expectations of how everything in the church should look and fit together. I also had an experience learning about BY teaching Adam-God that was troubling. Early on I heard some apologist explain that “BY didn’t really mean what he appears to be saying” but then I read in my own multi-great-grandfather’s journal an account of when he went to conference, and heard BY teach that Adam is God our Eternal Father — “and I believed every word” he said. All I can do is share how I have learned to reconcile these things (the fallibility of prophets) for myself. I think we have all heard the saying “in our church we claim our prophet is fallible, but nobody believes it.” For me it took some time to dissect the whole idea and make sense of every little part. Joseph Smith taught “a prophet is only a prophet when acting as such” which helped a little, but we still have this circumstance where BY (& JS in the translations) seem to be acting as prophet but still coming up short. I started to part out all the evidences. Did I see any teachings that I felt were inspired and seemed Godly? Yes, so I started to sort those out and group them together. It was not a quick or easy process to look at all the “hits” and “misses” that I could come up with, but after some time I started to feel better about the idea that God can and does work through this church. I still have a lot of uncertainty, mainly I don’t know why members feel they need to prop up something and call it divine revelation when it appears to be a miss to me; but I look for the common ground and I enjoy serving in the church.
I don’t know if it would be helpful to give specifics of how I look at scripture and revelation, you need to find your own answers and way of viewing things. I am open to the idea that the Book of Abraham may contain some divinely inspired ideas, even if it is not a literal translation of an ancient record. I am not interested in the historicity of scripture, that to me misses the point. The relevant question in my mind is “can I hear God’s voice speaking through this book?” I know very well that the idea boggles some minds that scripture may be divinely inspired without necessarily being historical, but I have worked my way past that. I just don’t care about stories being literal when I look at how can they inspire my life toward good (even if some parts of the story do while other parts don’t so much). I’m not saying I know they aren’t literal either, the topic of historicity is no longer interesting to me, it doesn’t make a difference in how the text moves me. If you’re interested in that angle you may appreciate the work of Adam Miller.
I think you are doing yourself a favor by asking these things before you go, and I would just give yourself permission to think through this. In other words, while it may be hard with the pressure from family with expectations, it can be something you stand up for yourself and say if you’re going to do it, you’re going to do it right…and stress to your family it comes from a sincere place and you are working hard to get answers to work through it. I would think they would support you if they know you’re sincere, even if they will bear their testimony and give advice on what they think is right. That is good to get their advice, but the choice is still yours. You are an adult now, on your own, and you need to own this decision and your faith. Having said that, don’t dismiss faith. Faith is sometimes doing something you hope to believe in, and the answers come only after a leap of faith. That is hard, but don’t turn off faith entirely as you search.
In other words, a missionary can still preach the value of church teachings of love and Christ, while still having doubts about Kinderhook plates. It does not have to be an “all or nothing” approach. We are all cafeteria members in some degree or another.
Have you made a list of all the positive reasons you should go on a mission, and then on the other side of the paper all the reasons you don’t think you should?
You could start there.
Also…I would check any assumptions you are making. For an important decision, you want to have clear facts. Would you really lost any status at BYU for one decision or another? Or are you just afraid you would…but actually, they let people be at BYU that can pass an ecclesiastic interview…regardless of faith, it is what you do with the faith that may keep your status at BYU, if that is where you want to be. Check the facts before assuming you could not go to BYU for some reasons you stated.
Heber13 wrote:Also…I would check any assumptions you are making. For an important decision, you want to have clear facts. Would you really lost any status at BYU for one decision or another? Or are you just afraid you would…but actually, they let people be at BYU that can pass an ecclesiastic interview…regardless of faith, it is what you do with the faith that may keep your status at BYU, if that is where you want to be. Check the facts before assuming you could not go to BYU for some reasons you stated.
In fairness, and trying to to derail or detract, there is a double standard at BYU Heber. It is perfectly OK for a non-member to go and believe pretty much whatever they want as long as they agree to live the honor code and can prove some modicum of moralistic behavior. Member students who leave the church or who are on that track do not have the same luxury. I’m not saying BYUStudent is in that position currently, but his fear is valid.
byustudent, Welcome to this site. I look forward to hearing from you. It sounds to me like you have much more important and pressing issues than whether to serve a mission. Like whether you believe in the LDS faith.
The most important aspect of making a decision whether or not to serve a mission is that it has to be entirely your own decision. You absolutely should not go to check someone else’s box. I would say that same thing if you were President Monson’s grandson or if you were a convert of one year or if you were struggling with the Church.
There is an assumption that all young men should go, and it’s been that way for a long time. Don’t let that be an issue for you. President Monson didn’t serve a mission. He joined the Navy during WWII, but he was 19 when he got out after the war was over. President Eyring didn’t serve a full-time mission. Instead, he served as a part-time “District Missionary” while he was in the Air Force in New Mexico, where he described doing about 10 hours per week of missionary-type work. President Uchtdorf didn’t serve a mission, joining the West German Air Force at the age of 19 (probably to avoid compulsory military service in the army). Neither President Eyring nor President Uchtdorf were involved in the war, both joined the military during peacetime.
One thing I can add is that you should decide. Decide to go or decide not to go. But don’t go because you couldn’t decide and don’t not go because you couldn’t decide.
Thank you for these responses. I’ve requested a copy of The Crucible of Doubt and Letters to a Young Mormon, both of which are kept in the library here (both checked out currently). I’m also about to send an email to one of the professors in the article DarkJedi posted from an alias I have. Should I try to meet him in person or communicate solely via email? There’s pro’s and con’s to both, the largest con of which is that my name/face are known. But from the article ( I’ve never met him personally) he seems understanding. I’m still trying to decide if I believe, yes. The potential mission just puts pressure on the timing; I’ve read the essay here (
http://staylds.com/docs/HowToStay.html ) and it’s definitely helpful. I could definitely do that for my time here at BYU and probably longer; however it doesn’t really fit in with my circumstances, as serving a mission is huge commitment when I’m still trying to find out if I believe.byustudent – I am sending a hug. I am a mom – notice the online name. My oldest daughter is the believing daughter of a family who is sliding off the grid. In a weird way she is in a similar boat to you and metalrain. She is 25 but was a full time BYU student, dedicated, fully invested gal. We brought her up that way, imagine her surprise when her dad – the mentor of her life, and her seminary teacher – went down the rabbit hole of faith crisis. In his case it’s unlikely he will ever return. Her mom is this nuanced practicer/believer and her siblings are totally inactive. I explain this to you just so you know, as you wander around campus and the world looks full of happy, orthodox, members – that it’s not. People everywhere are processing some of the same stuff you are. They may not come to the same conclusions, but they are facing it and trying to formulate themselves and their lives. That’s a great hope. You guys are younger than us, more conversations are happening and you can be apart of it, no matter which way you turn. You can be a leader, you just don’t know it yet.
Everyone here sympathizes with your struggle. We invite you to keep processing here. I would also suggest looking up Craig Harline – he is a professor and seems to understand the challenges. He wrote a book called Conversions. It’s another read but maybe if you just talked with him, he could give you some pointers.
Lastly if the Adam Miller and Crucible of Doubt are checked out, I guarantee you are not alone on the campus.
Good thoughts, mom3. I also recommend Craig Harline. My family grew up with his, and he has good thoughts in his book. He would be good to talk to. One thing about missions…I found mine to be very a worthwhile life experience. There were missionaries that goofed around, some only on missions because of family, some very very devout and obedient and literal thinking, and there were some on the different sliding scale between the extremes.
I found it very helpful for me to learn about religions of the world while on my mission. I wasn’t there just to convert others to my way of thinking, but listened to others and what they believed. I learned a lot about 7th Day Adventists and JWs. I didn’t do this to search, but just because I was interested in people and would listen.
For some people searching for something in their life, you can teach them the church’s way and give them something they’re looking for…regardless of historical things in the church…it truly helps people now. When people want to join, I taught them. When they didn’t, I never pressured them, or felt my success depended on it. I think I baptized some people who weren’t 100% sure of the church, but had faith to try it, and ended up seeing the blessings and learned as they went. It can be the same for us. We’re all converts in different ways.
In fact…if you can have some unorthodox beliefs…you may very well be a great example and influence to some people that other missionaries may not be. You may understand some people and their issues as they read stuff on the Internet and just be able to talk to them on a different level. The Lord can make weaknesses into strengths.
I was not aware of some of the things you are, but missions are good life experiences. You don’t have to be of one mold to go on a mission. But you probably wouldn’t enjoy it if you truly disbelieve.
Keep that in mind.
Welcome, In a way missionary service is like a college degree for Mormon life.
There are good things to be learned and developed in college – so too in missionary service. These are intrinsic.
Outside groups (such as grad schools or potential employers) will give you special status for having graduated college. These extrinsic motivators are also true in missionary service.
This extrinsic status sometimes does not translate well to diffirent circumstances. Just as a degree from a Malaysian university may not be honored in the US or a degree in a particular field may not apply well to a different field, Misionary service is not particularly honored outside of LDS circles. So missionary service can definately be an investment, but one that has a lower ROI outside of the Mormon lifestyle and corridor.
Currently I believe that the highest extrinsic motivator is to be found in dating, courtship, and marriage.
On Own Now wrote:There is an assumption that all young men should go, and it’s been that way for a long time. Don’t let that be an issue for you. President Monson didn’t serve a mission. He joined the Navy during WWII, but he was 19 when he got out after the war was over. President Eyring didn’t serve a full-time mission. Instead, he served as a part-time “District Missionary” while he was in the Air Force in New Mexico, where he described doing about 10 hours per week of missionary-type work. President Uchtdorf didn’t serve a mission, joining the West German Air Force at the age of 19 (probably to avoid compulsory military service in the army). Neither President Eyring nor President Uchtdorf were involved in the war, both joined the military during peacetime.
Elder Scott was not planning on serving a mission until his love interest at the time (later his wife) let him know that she couldn’t marry him unless he served.
I assume that whether you are going to serve will remain as the elephant in the room as long as you are single, under 25, and live in a predominantly LDS area. Changes in the status of these three variables should reduce the pressure and it should steadily diminish with time after that.
BYU delivers a great education value and I recommend that you make your education a priority regardless of whatever decisions you might make.
Serving a mission is an expectation – but it is not a requirement. I served; one brother went and returned due to not being able to testify of things he felt he didn’t know (and having to tell people they could have experiences he had never had); one brother married his high school sweetheart rather than go. My brothers all are active, and the one who didn’t serve at all currently is in the Bishopric and has been a Ward Mission Leader.
One of my sons served; the other one married his college girlfriend (who converted while they were dating) instead of going. The one who didn’t serve currently is the Ward Clerk and probably will be a temple ordinance worker in a few months – at the ripe old age of 26.
My son who didn’t go was the one whom we always assumed would serve a mission. He, literally, has the purest heart of anyone I’ve ever met, and he has a strong testimony. It’s his own testimony, and it’s heterodox, but it’s a real testimony. He is a strong supporter of gay rights, especially since he was involved heavily in theatre in high school and college and some of his best friends are gay. He prayed about it and had the thought come into his mind that he had done the most important missionary work he will ever do (his girlfriend) and that he could be involved in missionary work without serving a full-time mission. It helped tremendously that my wife and I supported him completely and that he lived in Missouri and attended church in Illinois at the time.
My point is simple:
You can craft your own faith and serve or not serve, depending on what you feel is right for you. I loved my mission, and so did my son and daughter who served (both of whom are definitely non-traditional, heterodox members – like my son having a full beard living in Provo, which he will have when he is sealed to his fiance next month); my brothers and other son did what was best for them. The key is figuring out what you DO believe and accepting that there is a way to make it work, even joyfully, within the LDS Church – whether or not you serve a mission. I and my family are proof that it can be done.
Lots of thoughts on this one. My oldest son was going through a lot of the same things you are last year at BYU, and he has since changed schools and moved home. He is not going on a mission, and he hasn’t been attending church. In my heart of hearts I wish he had gone on a mission because I think it would have been a good experience for him, but I understand his feeling conflicted and unsure whether he believed enough to go. I think a mission is a unique opportunity that he’s missing out on, but I also think 19 is pretty young. Here’s my best advice for anyone like yourself who is going to BYU:
– Join BYU Democrats. I don’t care what your political views are. If you want to find students who are more open-minded, that’s the place.
– There are lots of great professors at BYU, and aside from the Red Ed department, most of them are probably more like you than you think. They don’t tend to be black & white thinkers. They have seen it all. They are good confidantes. I know several personally if you want to PM me.
– Just wait on the mission if you’re not ready. Eventually, there’s going to be some pressure. Honestly, I think if you tell people you aren’t ready or aren’t sure, they generally will back off for fear of sending you the other direction. Get used to not caring what other people think of you – that’s an important life skill anyway!
Ah, my friend, first and foremost is just to reiterate what has already been said — a mission is not a requirement. However, because you have such devout LDS family members and are going to an LDS-backed school, the social and relationship repercussions might make it seem as such. My older brother went on a mission and attended BYU. The next brother in line did not go on a mission and did not attend a Church-affiliated school. The brother after is still young, but my older sister and I know that he won’t go on a mission and will likely go to a BYU rival school.
I hit on my faith crisis as a byproduct of preparing myself for my mission. After many months of thought, I was comfortable enough in my faith transition to determine that a mission would be an interesting and valuable experience, and I went ahead and have put in my papers and received my call (there was other stuff to it, many little coincidences that kept pointing me in the right direction over two years of preparation, and it’s hard for me to discount what seems like an orchestrated attempt of God or fate or the universe or what have you to to lead me to where I am now). Of course, my primary responsibilities will be as a mission nurse specialist, but I also gave heavy weight to the times I would be proselyting with my sister companion. I asked myself how comfortable I would be doing so. I looked at the doctrine missionaries are expected to teach, and I privately addressed each one to see if I could find some way to teach them without compromising myself. And for me, I have made it work.
Then again, I feel like I will have my mouth shut often during proselyting lessons; but I feel somehow that that will only give me more opportunity to serve people, not with the intent of converting them, but because my personality is wired to love service, and I feel like caring about the people is more important than caring about the numbers. I would like the Church’s mission fields to better reflect that; some mission areas already are. I would like to help contribute to that change in my own little way, even though I know that for me it will be very difficult. Also, I have seen the positive changes that have happened because of the Church in the lives of so many of my family members. I love that it has brought them a closer relationship to God, has even brought them out of horrible habits and into places of goodness, even though I do not believe in the same God as they do. I feel that for some people out there, the influence of the Church can be a great and wonderful thing. I would like to bring it respectfully to the people who might need it, and yet still serve and love the people who do not.
However, although I determined a mission was a good choice for me, the same might not be true to you, and it is OK if it is not, even though all the pressures in your life would say otherwise. I am a sister missionary, and a mission nurse at that, which was the primary reason I even considered a mission, so my experience is already much different than yours. I am well close to the age where they no longer accept single women as mission nurse specialists (which tells you I am likely way old enough to get married according to Mormon Utah culture, as many people keep reminding me…I smile and snicker inwardly at that). I have finished my schooling, have several years of professional work under my belt, and I am at a point in my life where I eagerly jump into new experiences for the sake of the experience, especially if I may be able to grow my skills and help others along the way. The indication for me to go on a mission didn’t come until I was almost finished with school, well past when my peers had already gone. Perhaps it will be the same to you. Or perhaps you aren’t intended to go.
I will end this long ramble by saying that although I remember few primary lessons (some more traumatic than others), I remember the one lesson where the couple teaching our class revealed to us young kids that you don’t have to go on a mission to be a good person — the lovely sister had gone on a mission, but the man had not. And they were very clear to us that that didn’t make either of them any less or better a Mormon.
If you don’t feel ready, if you don’t think it’s your time to go, then that is a decision you make between you and God.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Honestly, I think if you tell people you aren’t ready or aren’t sure, they generally will back off for fear of sending you the other direction. Get used to not caring what other people think of you – that’s an important life skill anyway!
I think this is very true. And if you add that you WANT to go and have been praying but you don’t get the feeling that the time is right – I think they almost HAVE to back off even if they still want you to go. I think you have said in one way you do want to go, that you have been praying, and that the answer has not come. So that is a fully honest answer – just spoken in Mormon speak.The best thing about not going on a mission if you are a guy in the Mormon church is that you know you aren’t going to be targeted by any marriage-happy women who are looking for a husband. There’s a silver lining here.
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