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byustudent wrote:
What’s hard for me is how do we separate when prophet’s are speaking for themselves or when they are speaking for God and the Church, especially when talking about specific religious matters?
We are raised to believe the prophets, “whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same.” So … we don’t have practice at this. It is safest to teach children to just obey them all, and not question.
That works for a certain phase of life. But when you get to be a certain maturity level, the old way doesn’t still work anymore.
That’s ok. It doesn’t mean all is lost…it means you’re entering a new phase of maturity. Just like you will begin to see your parents differently. They used to be the source of right and authority for you, now you’re an adult and you see them more in light of adults doing their best to be parents, but weren’t perfect. They tried their best, and you honor them for it.
The same is true of prophets. You can begin to see them differently, without out right rejecting them.
Have you heard of Fowler’s Stages of Faith? Google it. You’ll see it is not a specific mormon thing. It’s a human thing.
My advice: Don’t conflate the issues. Prioritize them and think about the important ones.
Because Brigham Young was perhaps wrong about Adam-God theory (or you just can’t believe it was revelation), doesn’t mean all prophets are untrustworthy, or even that BY wasn’t a prophet. They have a good percentage of their teachings that are spot on.
Book of Abraham may be an issue…but parts of the the Book of Mormon like King Benjamin’s discourse on service is good, regardless of the method Joseph used to bring it into print. Don’t conflate the issue on “what is translation or revelation” with whether the teachings on service are inspired of God or not.
Compartmentalize the questionable things you’ve been taught, so as to not lose confidence in the goodness you know to be true.
DarkJedi wrote:Like others, they need to be extra careful about not appearing to be apostate and remain in good standing at BYU.
I agree with those facts. They seem to apply to those who resign their membership.
Those are the key facts to be clear about when talking about whether someone can be a student or not. You don’t want a misperception out there that because a student doesn’t have a testimony, they’ll get kicked out of BYU. That simply is not true, and should not be the assumption others heading into a faith crisis should fear.
You can have a faith crisis, wonder about the BoA, Adam-God theory, not want to serve a mission, wonder if the book of mormon is true…but while diligently searching…adhere to the honor code and get an ecclesiastic endorsement, and get a degree at BYU.
If you take an official stance and resign membership or get excommunicated, then you won’t get the ecclesiastic endorsement.
I just wanted that point to be clear to all who are reading, to dispel unwarranted fears about doubting.
Thanks Heber and DarkJedi. I’m going to talk to a professor in about 30 minutes. DarkJedi wrote:The next level of believer would say you can tell by the influence of the Spirit confirming it to you (FWIW, I think there is some validity to that idea). The most doubting will say none of it is inspired and they’re always or almost always speaking as men. I’m somewhere between the last two…
I am also between the last two, kind of more leaning towards the second, even though my “influence of the Spirit” uses a lot more logic and a little less feelings.
Confusing, I know.
The way I see it, with so many people with so many differences amongst us, it doesn’t seem logical that we should apply the same system of judging and guidelines to our learning and experience to each and every person. I’ve brought up this quote before:
Albert Einstein wrote:…if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
The quote references the standardized ways we teach the majority of our children in schools. But everyone learns different; we know this. Often the Church refers to our mortal life here as an educational experience where we learn lessons. Do we need every lesson and concept that we are taught in school to function in the rest of our lives? No. Does anyone know exactly what lessons we need in our schooling to be successful in our life? No. Only you can figure that out as you progress. I feel somehow that that’s the same with Church and its lessons. So our church leaders give us all the lessons, and it’s up to us to determine which ones apply to our progression.
byustudent wrote:What’s hard for me is how do we separate when prophet’s are speaking for themselves or when they are speaking for God and the Church, especially when talking about specific religious matters? It seems like picking and choosing which statements from the general authorities comprise doctrine and beliefs and which one’s were spoken as men (distinct from “cafeteria Mormonism” where individual members choose which doctrines to focus on).
The others have already given great responses to this question. There is no hard or fast way. There is no perfect answer or method. That might sound like a horrible answer, but it can actually be a great blessing as well as a great challenge. When you cannot rely 100% on what other people tell you, then you get to take responsibility for your own beliefs. I personally appreciate the agency to determine what’s best for me and to make my life experience a personal one. Not a perfect answer or reasoning, but we all handle things differently, and that’s an OK thing.
byustudent wrote:What’s hard for me is how do we separate when prophet’s are speaking for themselves or when they are speaking for God and the Church, especially when talking about specific religious matters? It seems like picking and choosing which statements from the general authorities comprise doctrine and beliefs and which one’s were spoken as men (distinct from “cafeteria Mormonism” where individual members choose which doctrines to focus on).
This quote from BY was recently shared in Elder Christofferson’s talk
Free Forever, to Act for ThemselvesQuote:I do not wish any Latter Day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ,—the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves.
I think the established pattern is to listen to the prophets but seek personal confirmation. Personal confirmation shouldn’t come by a prophet’s utterance alone, it should come from the spirit.
I believe most if not all leaders would stand behind this process but things fall down because culturally we tend to assume that the spirit will
alwaysconfirm everythingthat leaders have said. As a church (group of people) we all want to arrive at that same witness and we don’t know what to do with people that don’t. Receiving a spiritual witness that is not in harmony with what the prophet has said is simply not a valid outcome for many people. Over time this mindset can make us spiritually lazy, we no longer feel that need to seek personal witness, the process now has a shortcut, and we may be getting by on a form of blind obedience. You’re right, this process is difficult but it can be empowering. It can be the path to spiritual autonomy.
West wrote:I am also between the last two, kind of more leaning towards the second, even though my “influence of the Spirit” uses a lot more logic and a little less feelings.
Confusing, I know.
The way I see it, with so many people with so many differences amongst us, it doesn’t seem logical that we should apply the same system of judging and guidelines to our learning and experience to each and every person.
Well it’s a good thing that the spirit can speak to our hearts
andminds. byustudent wrote:Thanks Heber and DarkJedi. I’m going to talk to a professor in about 30 minutes.
I would be interested to hear how this went. Please share what you feel comfortable sharing.
Hey bud, glad you found this forum. You’re not alone and I’m glad you saw my post- you’re at this much earlier than I was. Don’t go on the mission until you feel committed to do so. Regardless of what anyone else says. Know it’s something you want to do, or don’t want to do. I wonder sometimes about it, but I’m incredibly grateful for the amount of life experience I gained from my mission, the people I met, and the things I learned. One of the hardest things for me has been reconciling some of the spiritual experiences from my mission with the knowledge I’ve come across I suppose.
Right now you’re in the obsessive stage. Wait. Slow down. Do things you like doing. Don’t let it consume you. You don’t need to make a decision right now. You have until you’re 25 to go on a mission or not, if that’s what you end up wanting to do. You’re not going to get kicked out of BYU for not going. I have friends who just never went and never got married.
If you’d like to meet up, I’d be down to get lunch or something with you. I’m also curious on how your chat with the professor went, because that’s something I might be interested in as well.
Dear byustudent, There is a bunch of really good advice in this thread. You have a lot of things going for you and – if you want – there is a place for you to belong and be happy in this flawed church culture.
Just a few points of emphasis:
* You dont have to serve a mission, even as a student at BYU. I know many men who didn’t and who were successful at BYU and who graduated.
* There are probably more people like you (and us) at BYU than you realize.
* BYU for all its flaws is a very good education at a very good price. The alumni network is hard to beat.
I am a BYU graduate and currently a bishop. My wife knows the extent of my doubts but doesnt dwell on them and we have a strong relationship. It is sometimes difficult and sometimes I feel untrue to myself but overall I think the positives of the church much outweigh the negatives. I’m trying to say there is hope for a bright and happy future for you.
I’m glad you’re here and I hope you find peace and support here.
Thanks everyone. Darkjedi and metalrain, I met with Prof. Fluhman today and I’m glad I did. While we didn’t resolve all of my issues and doubts, it was beneficial and he is someone you can talk to frankly and in an open environment, something I don’t think I’ve had before (besides this forum). He didn’t even ask for my name, just how he could help me and worked with what you brought up. He said I could come back at later times to discuss more specific church problems and tackle them together, something I’m planning on doing.
Metalrain, I’m definitely open to maybe meeting up sometime.
One additional thing: I got my Patriarchal blessing at the beginning of this semester here, and it specifically talks about a mission, among other things. Trying to reconcile that + not knowing if I believe + the possibility of a mission even if it’s not required. There are a lot of different missions. Don’t forget that detail just tried to send you a PM about lunch but it said your profile didn’t exist. My advice about a mission is don’t go if you aren’t gung ho about the whole thing. Can you devote all your time to something you aren’t convinced of? Can you tell people it is what is best for them when you don’t know it is best for you? My mission had good points, but it also was full of guilt and sorrow. I should have spent the time wandering in another culture, working a job and learning about people. I could have achieved the same without spending the money and suffering so much angst. taletotell wrote:My advice about a mission is don’t go if you aren’t gung ho about the whole thing.
I agree completely. You wouldn’t be doing anyone any favors if you go unsure of your commitment.I will throw out a couple of threads you might find interesting to read because of the perspective of people here:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?t=5267 http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?t=6248 But don’t let the romanticism for what a mission could mean for you cause you to jump into something without looking. As I said before, you have much more important questions to resolve than whether to go on a mission. The mission question will be aided by finding what you believe.
byustudent wrote:What’s hard for me is how do we separate when prophet’s are speaking for themselves or when they are speaking for God and the Church, especially when talking about specific religious matters? It seems like picking and choosing which statements from the general authorities comprise doctrine and beliefs and which one’s were spoken as men.
I know a few LDS apologists that have concluded this is our job as faithful members – to listen to the spirit and decide for ourselves when a prophet is speaking for God and when he is giving an opinion.
For me it is always a sliding scale, a mortal being experiencing the human condition will never be able to hold in his/her brain a perfectly detailed divine concept, it will always contain a portion of “the philosophies of men.” Whether 20% mortal/80% divine or any other combination I don’t think we can reach or hold onto anything that is 100% divine in this “fallen” state. Even if I hear a talk in conference that sounds to me like 90% “of men” I make it my goal to pick out the 10% and try to take something positive out of that.
To say the whole church is 100% true or 100% fraudulent is itself a bitter thing that I reject. I will not be made to view the world in black and white. I prefer to view the subtleties and beauty that comes from seeing all the shades and colors.
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