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Hi Everyone, John Dehlin is one of the co-founders of this site, and of course the guy at the center of the Mormon Stories podcast (among many other projects). He is asking people to comment on his Mormon Stories website regarding an opportunity to talk to a Church leader this week on Thursday (May 5th, 2011).
PLEASE support John by posting a positive and constructive comment if StayLDS.com, the Mormon Stories podcast, or even John himself has helped you deal with your faith and connection to Mormonism.
LINK:
http://mormonstories.org/?p=1596 Thanks!
-Brian
John Dehlin kept me in the church for an additional year or two. I am a great fan of his. I think of him in Native American terms, one of the “young warriors” as opposed to the “ancient chiefs.” It is the young warriors for example who risk everything on the battle field. The old ones mostly watch from the hilly parameters, safe from harm. If John and others like him could have changed the absolute thinking in Salt Lake, the exodus from the church we know is occurring, might have been lessened. After all, “Young men shall see visions (or is it dream dreams),” whatever. John loved the church. We mostly all did once. He fought a longer battle than most of us… I continue to listen to and love Mormon Stories Podcast. Even if you don’t feel that your story is important, the numberof responses is important, therefore please do your best and post something. He is going to meet with a “Church Leader” for whatever reason and the more responses he has the stronger his position is IMO. At present there are about 143 posts, we can get the word out and greatly increase that number! Brian Johnston wrote:Hi Everyone,
John Dehlin is one of the co-founders of this site, and of course the guy at the center of the Mormon Stories podcast (among many other projects). He is asking people to comment on his Mormon Stories website regarding an opportunity to talk to a Church leader this week on Thursday (May 5th, 2011).
PLEASE support John by posting a positive and constructive comment if StayLDS.com, the Mormon Stories podcast, or even John himself has helped you deal with your faith and connection to Mormonism.
Thanks!
-Brian
There’s no question in my mind that StayLDS.com has helped me stay active in a positive way. But I’m a little confused about John Dehlin. He stated recently in the comments section of one of his podcasts that he wasn’t active in the church. What GA is going to listen to him with that being the case? Just curious.
GB, I don’t feel comfortable giving details that aren’t mine to give, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this meeting is “higher” than people’s automatic assumptions would indicate. I can’t get my post onto that website. It keeps disappearing while I type. I’ll try tomorrow from a real computer but I’ll put it here in case anyone can transfer it over. I was referred here through staylds.com. I left the church at the suggestion of my bishop. I once believed as strongly as I could possibly believe. My faith was destroyed a little each time I got stuck in the middle of a pissing match between two authorities, usually a Bishop and Stake president. What do you do when both claim to be receiving inspiration for you, but they each direct you in opposite ways, both assuring you the other is wrong? A bishop threatens you with church disciplinary action if you do this, the Stake President warns you that if you don’t do the very thing the bishop threatened disciplinary action if you do you will have to answer to the Lord. Neither want to sign your temple recommend if you follow the others advice. This happened multiple times. I finally left when the Stake President told me never to allow a Priesthood leader to talk me into doing something, then my bishop suggested I find another place to worship if I wasn’t willing to do the very thing the Stake President asked me not to do. I finally wrote Salt Lake asking what to do and never got a response. I guess from the church I need solid direction, not threats that I have destroyed my familys exaltation if I can’t both do and not do something at the same time.
I have not spent time on this website, but while staylds.com and John has not brought me back to the church, (not sure how appropriate it would be to come back when your Bishop has suggested you leave) it has kept me from becoming antagonistic towards it and has maintained a strong desire in me to find resolution to these huge inconsistencies in the church and to find a way back.
Dan Fiske
Cave Junction OR
Thanks for letting us know about this Brian. I just posted the following: I no longer feel this is the church I was raised in. My German parents who joined the church in Berlin and survived because of church assistance raised me to have a strong testimony. My dad investigated the church for 3 years and questioning was encouraged while I was growing up in the church. We were told that a church that could not stand up to scrutiny was built on a weak foundation. We had all the volumes of “Answers to gospel Questions” by Joseph Fielding Smith in our home and discussed them in family home evenings. I have letters my dad wrote the prophet and church leaders with replies back from them. I served an honorable mission in Austria for two years from 1969-71. I loved listening to LeGrand Richards, Hugh B. Brown, and Paul Dunn and had alot of their tapes. Gospel discussions were a big part of my life. Boyd. K. Packer set me apart for my mission.
Europe was a difficult mission and I began questioning more because of it. I came home very discouraged and almost lost my faith in God. I married a convert to the church who joined on an intellectual testimony hoping the Moroni’s promise of a witness of the Book of Mormon would come later. My husband loved Paul Dunn and trusted his spiritual experiences which kept him in the church. When we found out he had fabricated his spiritual experiences, my husband was devestated. He said if Paul Dunn could fabricate his spiritual experiences, how do I know Joseph Smith didn’t fabricate his. My husband after 30 years of fasting, and praying never got the spiritual witness Moroni promised and he was never going to rely on others testimonies for his faith again.
I was devestated from all of this as I have always wanted the church to be true. Having taught Gospel Doctrine for 4 years, and gospel essentials another 4 years I did my homework. Church history was especially disturbing to me. A friend I had brought to the church in Denmark started showing me disturbing things about church history from its own books and he left the church. Boyd K. Packers disturbing statements about intellectuals, homosexuals, and feminists besides his last years conference talks just added to the mix. We had a gay son who we knew could not change and to ask him to live without love and a partner for the rest of his life seemed creul. Anyway, my friend in Denmark led me to one of John Dehlin’s group called staylds.com. It was a direct answer to prayer and kept me in the church much longer than I would have otherwise. I have shown my present and previous bishops and high council leaders John Dehlin’s utube video about why people leave the church. My husband was in the stake high council when we left the church. Only one responded that he listened to it and thought it was very good. This previous bishop is a convert himself and understood that many inactive members have serious questions that should be heard and addressed. But, most of the church leaders we have interacted with would not even look at the video or discuss our questions. They just dumped us like a hot patotoe. Our present bishop even told my husband that he couldn’t possibly not gotten a positive answer to the Book of Mormon.
In the church we only hear all the positive experiences people have with the lds scriptures, and temples. There is no place for people who have had negative experiences to express themselves without being called apostates. John Dehlins video made me feel llike someone understood us and staylds.com was a place we could ask our questions without being put down for them.
I will post the following: 1. StayLDS helped me find a place to discuss my concerns without being ostracized or marginalized in my Ward any further. I asked to be released from a high profile calling previously and everyone treated me poorly afterwards — that’s what led me to seek out StayLDS.
At least at STayLDS, I could express my concerns and people would listen, empathize, and give sometimes helpful advice. If I said my true thoughts at Church then I would be kicked out of the meeting, I’m sure.
I also find the advice of some of the people at StayLDS have more influence over me than the Ward members. The Ward members tend to come out with worn-out answers I’ve heard a million times before, and which are no longer satisfying. Here at least, there are alternate perspectives. Rather than blind denial of the problems we have in our Church, there is acknolwedgement, recognition of them, and advice about how to cope in spite of them. At Church, all you get is denial or accusations of apostasy if you try to point out ways of improving.
2. I found that others shared my concerns. I felt I was no longer alone and that others have similar problems with accepting some of the cultural and policy-oriented decisions made within our Church. It has opened my mind and provided a place to go for community that I don’t find in my Ward.
Staylds has been very valuable to me. It has provided a means to talk about the issues for which there is no venue within the church. I have been able to be free and open. I have gained valuable insights. I have been accepted in ways that would never happen within the context of the church itself. Staylds is a very positive experience.
We had a discussion in our HP Quorum a few weeks ago about ‘Truth’. One of the elder statesmen said that one of the biggest problems in the church is that young adults are given no way to compare kinds of truth nor are given tools to deal with the dissonance that occurs when those two truths collide. His simple example was the geologic truth of millions of years of earth history, as evidenced by a visit to the Grand Canyon, compared to the biblical ‘truth’ of the creation story’. We are not even given metaphor as an official tool. His point is that we are losing these young people in droves, and I believe that is true based on anecdotal observation. I was very surprised to hear such a frank comment in a quorum meeting.
My feeling is that at the time of David O. McKay, the church was poised to take a more liberal stance based on Pres. McKay’s Leadership, but infighting and backdoor publications from Elder Smith and Elder McKonkie set the church on a right-wing course that is now becoming its own worst enemy.
The simple, but broadly accepted notion that all learning will align with the scriptures is not a useful tool; it is more aptly just a means of brushing issues under the rug, in effect, limiting discussion and eliminating the means to resolve issues within the context of activity within the church.
Anyway, thanks to staylds and John.
Old-Timer wrote:GB, I don’t feel comfortable giving details that aren’t mine to give, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this meeting is “higher” than people’s automatic assumptions would indicate.
I don’t know that it matters much if he’s going to meet with Elder Jensen, Elder Packer or President Monson. I’m just curious why he’d do it since he’s not active and doesn’t believe it or why they would feel the need to sit down with him. Is there something about his constituency of non believing, marginally participating, non tithe paying members that need more ministering, care and support? Does he somehow see this as his ministery and calling? It’s all very confusing to me.
GBSmith wrote:I don’t know that it matters much if he’s going to meet with Elder Jensen, Elder Packer or President Monson. I’m just curious why he’d do it since he’s not active and doesn’t believe it or why they would feel the need to sit down with him. Is there something about his constituency of non believing, marginally participating, non tithe paying members that need more ministering, care and support? Does he somehow see this as his ministery and calling? It’s all very confusing to me.
I think he’s going to meet with the leader because the leader asked him to. And I can’t really speak for John, but regardless of level of activity, it’s pretty clear that John loves the Mormon people and his Mormon heritage. Those ties to the community and heritage are deep and strong for a lot of us – probably a lot on this board who aren’t “traditional” believers but continue to participate in the church.
And, I don’t think John has a “constituency” – that makes him sound like too much of a leader of some sort. JD’s clearly stated in recent years that everyone has to choose their own path and what makes sense for them. He’s not leading people one specific direction. But his voice is a welcome one of understanding and empathy for people who are receiving neither from the church or their families.
He’s helped countless people stay in the church and at least deal with their pain and confusion in constructive ways. And “his constituency,” if you insist on using that term, is far wider than you suggest. I know plenty (including me) of fully participating, tithe-paying, if partially believing members that are fans/friends/mentees of JD.
Andrew wrote:[I think he’s going to meet with the leader because the leader asked him to. And I can’t really speak for John, but regardless of level of activity, it’s pretty clear that John loves the Mormon people and his Mormon heritage. Those ties to the community and heritage are deep and strong for a lot of us – probably a lot on this board who aren’t “traditional” believers but continue to participate in the church.
And, I don’t think John has a “constituency” – that makes him sound like too much of a leader of some sort.
? Does he have a constiuency or not.
Quote:And “his constituency,” if you insist on using that term, is far wider than you suggest. I know plenty (including me) of fully participating, tithe-paying, if partially believing members that are fans/friends/mentees of JD.
OK, followers, believers, friends,fans. Your choice. All I know is that I feel betrayed by him and I think I’ll just leave it at that.
Here is what I posted. I am an active member of the church, served a mission, married in the temple, have three kids, and I am currently serving as the Elders Quorum President of our branch. I for one am very grateful for all the work that John Dehlin has done with his Mormonstories and StayLDS websites. There is no question that I would not be part of this church if it was not for these resources.
Perhaps the biggest impact these sites have had on me, is it showed me that the church can still be good and meaningful to me and my family, even though it has warts and flaws. Contrary to the cultural teachings that I grew up with, the church does not have to be all true or all false. And that is a good thing, because there are SO many things that are NOT TRUE about the church. If the church has to be “all true or all false,” than I cannot remain a part of it. If the church insists on absolute conformity at the expense of tolerance and diversity, I cannot remain a part of it. I don’t like that option, and I reject that notion. I hope there will always be a place for me, and those like me, in this church.
The StayLDS website has shown me the fallacy of the “all true or all false” dogma. I no longer have to believe in the whole black and white mentality, which caused me so much angst, because at one point I truly felt like I had no choice but to leave the church in order to preserve my integrity and honor. I love the church, I love the people, and I love the concept of Pure Mormonism, and I feel like it is a great pathway to find god and peace in this life. I’m grateful that I can stay LDS and keep my integrity and honor, even though I am certainly unorthodox, and I have serious concerns and issues when it comes to many of our over-emphasized cultural and traditional dogmas and commandments like white shirts, beards and tea drinking, and the whole white-washed history of the church.
When I found out the true history of this church (from our own LDS sources), and how many of our “commandments” have merely evolved from cultural traditions, I was devastated. Thanks John for being a voice for some of us out here who truly want to remain a part of the tribe, yet struggle with these issues and really don’t feel welcomed or wanted by many of the members and leadership, because of our unorthodox beliefs.
I stand with you and believe in what you are doing.
Chad Waldron
I hope that we convey some level of acceptance for people who consider themselves “Mormon” or to be a part of our larger community, still being welcomed and loved, regardless of their statistical activity score or their orthodoxy. John will always be Mormon no matter what his activity level is at any given time. At least that is my opinion.
It’s cool either way about the commenting and public support. I just wanted people to know about the opportunity, and that John asked his network of friends and “fans” for support in this.
Hi John, Mormon Stories has helped me because it reduces the feeling of isolation one feels when one is not happy with LDS culture. It is comforting to know that there are others like me who have felt like I have within the church who feel that the LDS culture needs to change and to help make the church a better place for people who want spiritual nourishment and peace.
John, whatever the outcome of your meeting with the leader, don’t despair. The church needs to make positive changes within it’s walls. Mormon stories website is a window or a mirror of what leaders can take a look at on how we can improve the church if it must. Openness, honesty, and even making the church a place where leaders listen to members and say “oh, maybe we need to make this change in Mormon culture and what can we do to make this change ?”
Even in the pre-existence we had a say in the plan of salvation. We voted and we are here in mortality. This isn’t just the Saviors church ! It needs to be a place where members feel peace and included and what better way than for leaders to listen to members on how to make the church a better place.
It seems that the less you fit into the church the less of a voice one has and that is disheartening to members who don’t fit into the mainstream of LDS society. Let’s make the church a better place.
Lastly, Joseph Smith wrote the 13 articles of faith. The one that means most to me is article of faith 11:
“11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
We are individuals and leaders need to remember that and we need to worship God according to our own consciences as we personally feel is the best way of doing so as an individual.
John, I pray for you, that whatever leader you meet with, will hear you out and listen to what you have to say. The church culture needs to change and be more accepting of people who are different. I think that is what motivates you to do what you do.
And may God be with you John,
Sincerely,
BeLikeChrist
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