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I’ve developed a way of thinking now that seems completely natural and makes sense. It’s certainly not a traditional perspective, and I’m willing to reconsider it. Essentially, this is my train of thought.
The lds experience requires payment of thousands and thousands of dollars of tithing. I no longer think it’s necessarily essential for salvation. I read Michael Quinn’s
Extensions of Powerand learned how the early prophets kept defining and redefining what tithing was, and its relative importance for salvation. (I realize Quinn is one of the September 6 and no longer a member, but he is a professional historian, and his treatment seemed balanced, fact-based and not at all anti-Mormon). To me, the current tithing-tied-to-temple-recommend approach was a result of experimentation by various prophets. It was as they experimented with different ways to help the church meet its financial needs. And the current method has worked so well that the church is quite well off. But I no longer see it as really a valid commandment, inspired etcetera. While I do feel some obligation to put in for the church (it needs funds to run), I feel the requirements are excessive.
And further, I don’t see the return on investment in terms of the overall experience – in terms of belonging to an organization that really lives its values when the chips are down. Or an organization that at times will forgo its own needs in order to serve the members in ways that are consistent with its own values — as truly princpled people and organizations do.
When I’ve had legitimate non-financial needs, they refused to help me on really key issues at the heart of our mission. The local leadership has been largely indifferent to my needs even when I was a very strong contributor. The volunteer experience has been terrible in so many ways, at times leading to health problems and clinical depression. My experience with the Sunday School Presidency recently is a case in point….they are called but barely seem to want to do anything. It simply doesn’t seem WORTH it for the sacrifice when there are so many areas where I can do good with achieving people who have a clear impact. Sure I can help this presidency, but I can also help others who are far more motivated and will go further, longer than these retired men who are there out of a sense of duty more than anything.
Now, I realize that we pay tithing and serve it partly to be charitable. To help our spirit and overcome selfishness.
But there are so many other causes to which I can give the money (and time) that are more important to me. They too are charitable, so it’s not like withholding tithing from the church is an exercise in selfishness — it’s an exercise in priorities. It’s an exercise in seeing the money used for causes that you really believe in and feel are important. As opposed to going into a general black hole where it’s used without any transparency. I guess I don’t feel like a philanthropist when I donate to the the church. But when I commit the funds to causes I believe in, I do. And that’s important to me.
Any comments on this? Am I missing something here? Standard Mormon answers won’t work — overcoming selfishness, fire insurance, being “obedient” when the commandment was a moving target for so many years.
Comments welcome.
The only aspect of your thinking that I can detect as possibly flawed is expecting non-financial benefits in return for financial donations. I don’t see a strong causal link. (Do you see one?) I think that’s more of an aspect of how you feel, which is significant, but not exactly what you asked us to critique. 
I’m going to put on my Ray hat and say that your thinking might be incomplete (though not necessarily wrong) because you haven’t seemed to consider the Church’s educational programs in determining whether it’s good to pay tithing to the Church.
That being said, there are plenty of other places to send your tenth, which do just as much good or more, with much less overhead. I call it a judgment call if you don’t value having a temple recommend.
I chose to not to help you change your thinking. It sounds to me like you have reached a personal comfort zone in donating to non-LDS causes. I love it. Always Trade Upwards.
Keep in mind those institutions can let us down, too. Consider the Red Cross and Goodwill as non-LDS examples.
The only two things you might consider are your spouse and your family. If they support you. Keep on going.
Tithing is a challenge. It’s a scriptural request. Not just a Mormon thing. The purposes have shifted over the years. I suspect it will again.
One way is to work on letting go of attachments to physical things like money. When we let go, it sets our thinking free to focus on spiritual blessings, and myth, and stories. God has not commanded modern prophets to revoke the tithing standard because there is a purpose for it in our lives, if we choose to seek it. That purpose is in harmony with gospel teachings we can find make us holy and worthy to enter a holy temple.
The standard Mormon answers are build on the supposition that Mormonism gets you to heaven and fulfills your destiny. What sacrifice would not be “worth it” under such conditions? I agree that many of these justifications tend to not hold water for some people in our position. For many people like us the desire to pay and the fulfillment from paying must come from within. As someone that participates in several churches I am well aware that all churches request financial support from the congregation. It becomes more expected once you sign on to become a member. Different churches have different processes. I remember one where they would have all the children carry baskets to collect offerings from the congregation. It was called the children’s offering and it went to children related programs. This is both ingenious and manipulative depending on how you look at it.
Heber13 wrote:
One way is to work on letting go of attachments to physical things like money. When we let go, it sets our thinking free to focus on spiritual blessings, and myth, and stories.
Heber brings up a good example. As a TBM I paid tithing because I expected that God would provide a safety net of blessings. I felt that it would be an insurance policy. Far from helping me let go of attachments my payment of tithing helped me to feel secure in those attachments. With God’s help I had managed to bend fate, chance, and risk to my benefit. With my tithing check I purchased a sense of safety, security, and certainty.
I feel that many things that I was taught at church reinforced my belief. To those like me, the teachings around tithing form the heart of the LDS prosperity gospel. Those that know my story know that my state of expectation set the stage for my faith crisis.
SilentDawning wrote:
The lds experience requires payment of thousands and thousands of dollars of tithing.I’d tweak that a little: the full, unfettered lds experience could require payment of thousands of dollars of tithing if you have an income and are not exempt from tithing.
SilentDawning wrote:I no longer think it’s necessarily essential for salvation.
I don’t mean to split hairs but I don’t think top leaders would say that paying tithing is essential for salvation. Temple ordinances are billed as required for salvation and tithing is linked to obtaining a temple recommend but I think of:
1) People that never had an income their whole lives are allowed to receive temple ordinances.
2) My ancestors never paid a dime to the LDS church (and I bet many never paid a dime to
anychurch) but all of them have received the temple ordinances. So tithing and salvation (narrow definition of how we often define salvation at church) are related but unrelated.
SilentDawning wrote:I read Michael Quinn’s Extensions of Power and learned how the early prophets kept defining and redefining what tithing was, and its relative importance for salvation. (I realize Quinn is one of the September 6 and no longer a member, but he is a professional historian, and his treatment seemed balanced, fact-based and not at all anti-Mormon).
To me, the current tithing-tied-to-temple-recommend approach was a result of experimentation by various prophets. It was as they experimented with different ways to help the church meet its financial needs. And the current method has worked so well that the church is quite well off. But I no longer see it as really a valid commandment, inspired etcetera. While I do feel some obligation to put in for the church (it needs funds to run), I feel the requirements are excessive.
The institutional church feels threatened by two groups, the conservatives and progressives (for lack of better labels). The two groups have something in common, to some degree or other they both are disaffected with current leadership. The conservative might be tempted to look back at past policies and doctrines as authoritative, we’ve departed from the truth. The progressives might be tempted to look forward to future polices and doctrines that they believe the church leaders will eventually adopt once they finally start listening to god again.
Leadership would likely argue that the past and future don’t matter as much. If we believe in continued revelation we need to listen to the boys that are currently setting the club requirements. Tithing is a little different because technically it’s between us and the lord. It’s one of the few “rules” that we are afforded some degree of autonomy.
Define tithing how you want to define it.
Heber13 wrote:
One way is to work on letting go of attachments to physical things like money.
Ha. These days even money is becoming less physical and more of an abstract. Money just a number in a database. It works like magic. I walk in a store with nothing, pick up a product, swipe a card, a number gets subtracted from another number in one database and added to yet another number in a different database, I walk out of the store with the product and no one chases after me. It’s all magic based on the faith we’ve collectively placed in numbers in databases. I guess physical money is no different. Meh.
My orthodox view on tithing wasn’t the insurance model, where if I paid tithing a $20 bill would float down the gutter in my hour of need. It was more related to a principle where it was easy to measure perfection. I could be “perfect” (without flaw) in this one arena which increased my faith to attempt to be perfect in other arenas.
The only personal benefits of paying tithing that have come to me directly have been the funding of buildings where I worship (meetinghouses and temples) and the peace my payments gave me when I needed and received fast offering assistance while unemployed – and my wife’s desire to pay a full tithe and the peace of mind it gives her. (That last benefit is huge to me.) Neither I nor any of my children attended or will attend a church school (with nothing negative in that statement), so that has not been a benefit for me. The assistance my parents received that allowed me to serve a mission was an indirect benefit of their standing as “totally faithful” members, which included their tithing payments even in their poverty.
I pay mostly for the benefit it provides others who need the practical results more than I do – the poor members, the members in third-world countries, the members who attend a church school, etc. I see it as akin to paying the dues or membership fees of people who couldn’t participate fully otherwise. For me, it is more of an offering than an obligation.
All of that said, I am not going to try to change your mindset. It isn’t my responsibility to do so, and I’m not inclined to try. Tithing is an ancient principle, even though the definitions and usages have changed over time and are different among various religions and denominations. I encourage people to tithe, to the extent they can, in some way, using some kind of logical, honest calculation method, to a cause or causes in which they believe. I believe strongly in the principle, and I support anyone who follows it with “pure intent” – no matter what the practical model looks like.
In that light, I applaud you and your desire to find a way to tithe with integrity and purpose.
Heber13 wrote:
One way is to work on letting go of attachments to physical things like money. When we let go, it sets our thinking free to focus on spiritual blessings, and myth, and stories.This is the great contradiction. Try living your life from day to day while “letting go of money”. Give up your job, ditch your financial obligations and watch all hell break loose. Your marriage fails, your health problems go untreated, you become unemployable. To me it’s very hard to reconcile the idea that money is something to be “let go of” when, as one of our quorum members said, “money is as important as breathing on this earth”. And for some people a $3000 dollar a year sacrifice is 10X a $10,000 a year sacrifice for the next person.
Now, making sure you don’t sacrifice your integrity for it, or abuse the power that comes with it — that is a worthy goal. I’m just not convinced the church is the only place you can give money to achieve those goals….
Who knows, I guess I may never change my mind. But I’d like to think I might some day. The good news is that my daughter and I have decided we won’t let the church come between us and our relationship. And if that means I sit on the steps of the temple when she gets married someday, so be it. She’ll love me anyway and not hold it against me. And I won’t hold it against her for getting married in a place I can’t go.
Letting go of money completely and letting go of an attachment to money are two different things – and nobody here believes the LDS Church is the only place to give your money in order to achieve healthy detachment. Just saying.
nibbler wrote:
My orthodox view on tithing wasn’t the insurance model, where if I paid tithing a $20 bill would float down the gutter in my hour of need. It was more related to a principle where it was easy to measure perfection. I could be “perfect” (without flaw) in this one arena which increased my faith to attempt to be perfect in other arenas.
I do confess that I was never overly troubled with perfection. My bishop gave me that explanation and it just didn’t do anything for me (I smiled and nodded). I am sure that I could reduce many areas of my life down to mathematical equations and then follow them perfectly but why? The Jews of old had many extra rules to help them not even come close to breaking certain commandments. I can imagine them saying, “we cannot really do anything to enforce the love your neighbor stuff but we CAN be
perfectin keeping the Sabbath day holy.” It also seems to me that there can be many mutually exclusive personal reasons and justifications for paying tithing. You can pay for the wrong reasons and without a pure heart and not receive any of the more spiritual “help me become a better person” blessings and the church seems happy to let you continue to do so. In this way it is somewhat like the priesthood ban or the white shirt rule or ending our talks in the name of Christ or our Mormon aversion to the cross or Women not having the priesthood or…. so many other things. It (in this case the rule to pay tithing) exists…now let us come up with reasons and justifications for its existence.
Roy wrote:
I do confess that I was never overly troubled with perfection. My bishop gave me that explanation and it just didn’t do anything for me (I smiled and nodded). I am sure that I could reduce many areas of my life down to mathematical equations and then follow them perfectly but why?
For the same reason I’ll sometimes eat every like-color M&M until they are all gone, then move on to the next color, OCD.
🙂 It’s how I got into scrupulosity, this obsession with being perfect. Hey, we all approach things in different ways. I don’t know if it’s Buddhism, Tao, common sense, or what but rather than fight against that aspect of our nature we can embrace it, let it become something that benefits our lives… in my case find a job that’s related to following mathematical equations perfectly… or a job sorting M&Ms.
SilentDawning wrote:
Now, I realize that we pay tithing and serve it partly to be charitable. To help our spirit and overcome selfishness.…
But there are so many other causes to which I can give the money (and time) that are more important to me.
Hi SD,
A few random thoughts I’m sharing, not saying whether it’s right or wrong. I consider myself a full tithe payer although I’m quite sure that to the orthodox member they would not consider me so.
First, I donate
tonsof time to the church which to me is frankly more valuable than money. I can earn more money but I can’t gain back spent time. To me that’s greater value than tithing. So far this year 40% of my paid time off work have been away from family and at church activities such as scout camp and high adventure and girls camp. Second, as a Christian I feel it necessary to donate financially and pay a tithe of some sort. I pay a portion of my “tithe” to pay for tuition for students at a church school. Tuition for poor students helps people in a very real way and still arguably helps the church also. Also, my employer matches donations to colleges so I’m effectively multiplying the good that my donations do.
Perhaps I’m rationalizing and I’ll burn at the 2nd coming but I feel comfortable with my approach. I’ve heard very pointed talks saying that tithing is paid to the LDS church, not anyone else, and even not including to the ward. I’ve not read in the scriptures to whom tithing must be paid, only that it should be paid. Handbook 1 does say that tithing must be paid to the bishop, so I suppose I’m on thin ice there.
Take it for what it’s worth, which isn’t much. It’s one person’s point of view.
SilentDawning wrote:This is the great contradiction. Try living your life from day to day while “letting go of money”.
SD, you are not wrong. In practical terms, money is important. Without it, we could not run this website.I only add for thought…that seeing that as a contradiction is the opportunity to change thinking, if you want to. If you do not, that is fine too. There is nothing magical about paying tithing.
If the church removed the tithing standard for members to go to the temple, they would remove the opportunity for us to resolve that conflict in our thought and faith. Are there other ways (even better ways?) to achieve this? Perhaps…but it is what the church has in place. Hypotheticals are always less important than reality.
Therefore, tithing can serve a purpose for us in developing our spirits, and practicing how to let go of the attachment of physical things (money is not as important as breathing, for example…you cannot substitute them. In all cases, with the choice to breathe or to have money…all rational beings would breathe and let go of money). While we practice being
willingto give of our money, we can also responsibly seek to pay our mortgage and bills and prioritize life appropriately. Especially when the reward can be tangible, like seeing our kids sealed in the temple, or less tangible as part of our spiritual journey.
Tithing can be a paradox.
A paradox provides a creative opportunity, and contradiction is the stimulant.
Perhaps letting go of money is not easy…as Jesus taught to the rich young ruler in Mark 10:21.
Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote:
Quote:“With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do.”
We can embrace the contradiction, embrace paradox, embrace tithing and choose how we use that to come closer to God.
Or we can let go of it and accept what results. It is a personal thing.
I mostly think…
if I pay tithing, or I do not pay tithing…how do I best love others?And I follow that answer.
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