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Heber13 wrote:
If the church removed the tithing standard for members to go to the temple, they would remove the opportunity for us to resolve that conflict in our thought and faith. Are there other ways (even better ways?) to achieve this? Perhaps…but it is what the church has in place.
My own view of the topic at this time is that members and local leaders, and even the men at the top have a lot of spiritual reasons for paying tithing. Similar to how business people always have a lot of reasons for why a product is so expensive if you ask. If you ask any business person “why is insurance so expensive??”. Or “Why is this car so expensive?”, you’ll get a torrent of reasonable sounding answers. They are easy to create. Business people will never come up short on reasons for why things are so expensive.
I would like to sit in on a meeting of the presiding Bishopric with the Prophet, or some high-up member of their financial department. Particularly back when N. Eldon Tanner took over the financial side of the church when it was in financial trouble back in the late 60’s and 70’s.
I have a feeling there would be a lot of discussion about the financial reasons and not much about the spiritual side.
I have a bit of a way to go before I see the merits of paying tithing to the church, I guess.
SilentDawning wrote:I have a bit of a way to go before I see the merits of paying tithing to the church, I guess.
I wouldn’t bang your head on the wall trying to figure it out (I know you’re not). I don’t know that there are that many. It’s not that big of a deal, I don’t think. Just part of the religion. One thing among many in the buffet of things that can help us if we want it to…but don’t need if we don’t.It has meaning only if we give it meaning.
To me, knowing you…you have other things you’re doing which are good, you still are there and you still work with the teaching. You’ve got your path.
Should you choose to want to do it for whatever reason…there can be a spiritual side to it. Should you be working on other aspects of the spiritual side (of which there is a plethora) then it can be parked or shelved.
I don’t think tithing is that big of a deal. Unless we are focused on it so it has meaning for us…then…it can be far greater than any financial discussion…if we make it.
The church is so freakin wealthy…the reasons for tithing now if you were to talk to high level leaders is much different than it used to be for the church. That’s a blessing of past tithe payers and faithful latter-day saints that I do NOT take for granted.
Heber13 wrote:To me, knowing you…you have other things you’re doing which are good, you still are there and you still work with the teaching. You’ve got your path.
And I have my own goals. It’s so much easier just to write a check for something I need in the non-profit for one of the community projects I’m working on than it is to fundraise. It’s one reason we’ve made such rapid progress in the last 2 years. We aren’t accountable to anyone but our volunteers, and only then, in a moral and non-financial way. And the government, but there’s always that.
Anyway, I’m putting this on the back burner for now. I guess I don’t see the merits of it for the time being.
One part of the religion that makes this topic very real in our lives is the temple recommend requires answering the question (see hereI believe we all have choices, and we make those choices on what we feel is right to us through personal revelation or intuition or thinking.
It seems to me, the church has made this topic…paying tithing…something that directly can impact my life. As I’ve said before, in and of itself, tithing is not magical and it doesn’t really matter unless I make it matter to me. Tithing can be argued in a myriad of ways and financially it can be viewed as a worthy investment or not…that can be argued a myriad of ways because “worthy investment” is subjective to the eye of the investor.
But when it comes to it…it is simple to me.
1. My kids want to be married in the temple.
2. I want to support my kids and be the witness at their sealing.
So, I return to my question:
Heber13 wrote:
if I pay tithing, or I do not pay tithing…how do I best love others?Because love is the main driver for me, all other arguments that I wrestle with around this principle become subservient to the idea that for me and my family…I best love my kids by being there in the temple, and the church has made that an issue. Therefore…I accept the reality of the situation, apply my line of thinking with highest priority and motivation being love for my children (as I see it), and I work to make that happen. In doing this, I find the most peace for me and learn to let go of the rest.
My sister did not attend her son’s temple sealing, and waited outside. I chose to sit outside with her and talk, even though I held a TR in my wallet. After we took pictures outside the temple together and went to the reception, and they honored her, and there was love and dancing and celebration…and now my nephew has 2 beautiful kids who love visits from their grandma…and it has worked out just fine as a family…there is much love there. I do not see it has made any impact on their ongoing relationship because love is greater than one moment in time. And so it can work out either way.
It’s just my personal choice based on that line of thinking that works for me. I have a missionary son who is probably the next of my kids to want to go to the temple to get married. Knowing that is coming in the next 2-5 years…I make a decision now to prepare for it. The money doesn’t matter to me, it is just money. I will never have enough of it, whether I pay tithing or not. It’s just money, something I need to work hard for and to live with…and that is all it is to me.
And that is part of how I think through the reality of me struggling to pay bills and yet being willing to donate willingly to a multi-billion dollar corporation.
Do I see things differently than my bishop? Do my leaders want me to see tithing differently or take more orthodox teachings in my views on this and other things?
Perhaps…but none of that matters either.
I want to be there for my kids, I do what I need to in order to answer the TR questions honestly and with integrity, and I go to love my kids by being the witness in their sealing, as my dad was with mine.
And life goes on with less regrets in my life and more peace by accepting reality and making my choices. As President Monson would often say…I choose my love, and love my choice. And I move forward.
Thanks for sharing Heber. Those are some good thoughts to think about.
mom3’s post accidentally got deleted while attempting to clean a duplicate post. Here it is: mom3 wrote:This past Sunday our speaker mentioned that his dad was University of Utah professor of history. Largely focused on little things like establishing Zion and how that played out. He mentioned specifically ZCMI stores. He said, “they weren’t a big store in a mall”. The “C” stands for Cooperative. The ZCMI store and other things were member financed necessities in the early years of the church. Then he went on to say “After a while those uses were no longer necessary and tithing became our “cooperative” effort.”
I thought about it because there is much about how we now handle tithing that grates my soul. I won’t spend hours on it. However, taking the speaker’s word for it, I let my mind go back over the last 180 years and how tithing or church financials have worked to help. In a direct sense the church grew and does grow because of tithing. Yes we are sitting on a stock pile now, but that hasn’t always been the case. Those donations lifted the burdens of communities, families, countries at various times. It doesn’t look that way anymore.
But think about money management now in our personal lives. Debit cards remove us greatly from our money. They give us a false security of endless funds. Swipe the card and you are done. When I was kid (right before the dinosaurs left the earth) money was much more valuable to me. I was aware of it. Largely because it came in cash. Living paycheck to paycheck. Needing to visit the bank to get the money (No ATM’s available). All bills were paper. I watched myself balance a check book and other ledgers much more hands on. Now I go for days or weeks without looking at the balance. I swipe my card and head off. More than half my bills are paid online. I never even look at them. Unless something goes wrong. Even medical bills are paid through the ether of the internet. It makes me very complacent with money. And sometimes a thoughtless shopper.
The churches history with tithing and it’s usage is much the same way. We don’t even think how much a building costs. (Yes – I know they order in bulk and have 2 models to choose from. It gripes me). We really don’t know how many educations it’s funded. Or Humanitarian costs. Or hospital services it supports.
I could gripe on opposing sides of that, too.
But last year as I was working with my community organization, I was talking with other LDS people who volunteer at it. (I’d never met them before) One of them thought that the TR should ask if you had truly given meaningful service as a requirement. In the moment it sounded good. I even liked it. Then as I drove home I changed my mind.
The TR has become this onerous slip of paper that delineates the worth of a person. It wasn’t intended for that, but that is what it has become. If we traded the requirement of tithing for people giving service – service would become a chore. No one would pursue it for anything more than keeping the white slip of paper. Even though we have less people serving, I would much prefer it to remain as it is, than a requirement held over someone’s head.
In other churches tithing pays for the minister, the band, the kitchen etc. Their hand is always out. Little envelopes lie around the place requesting tithes and funds for mission trips, vacation bible school, baptism day events. Tithing is religions best source of finances to function at it’s best.
If you pay the bills in the family, lower your donation. Give a portion. Don’t tell anyone. No one looks at your pay stub. Pay online and adjust it there. If you can only find it in your heart to support your family through it. That sounds like a good reason to me.
Like Ray, I wouldn’t try to change your mind on this, and like others, I think detachment from wealth is an important spiritual principle. But that’s achievable regardless of where you pay your tenth. You can follow the principle of tithing. I worry sometimes, though, that we don’t always see the church’s efforts in the best light. I know there are many great things the church does that it doesn’t advertise, and there are many many charities that seem great and wind up in a scandal. To me, the most important thing is to avoid specific pitfalls in your giving:
1) control and being too tied to your own money and your own ability to make the best choices vs. letting go of that control, having more trust, and letting things be.
2) a belief that you are buying something or exchanging your donation for something – blessings for example.
3) a fear of loss of social capital if you donate to the church rather than a “more worthy” or recognized cause. This is particularly an issue, IMO, among the younger generation. They see religion as corrupt rather than doing good works, and instead they donate to Greenpeace or whatever, but those groups are likewise imperfect.
Anyway, most of that boils down to being willing to really give up control of your donation and not assuming it’s yours, which is I think the point of tithing–to recognize that everything we have is a gift.
Having said all that, I really dislike the church’s administrative aspect associated with tithing. We foster some of these anti-spiritual attitudes. The church acts very entitled to those donations.
Many good point from Hawkgirl. I think it is an excellent idea to contribute regularly a decent chunk of your income to a good cause beyond yourself. If I wasn’t paying it towards the Church, I’d want to put it towards something else. Unfortunately, there’s not a Charity or non-profit out there I trust more than the Church. That’s not saying that the Church doesn’t always put their money to good use, but they do a lot of good.
And when you think about it, have you taken a look at the salaries of the top execs from many of these “non-profit charities”? The United Way CEO earns $1.2 mil, the Boys & Girls Club Ceo makes $1.8 mil, and even the Goodwill CEO makes $850,000. And that’s not including the $500,000-$1mil bonuses they recieve. In contrast, our Church leaders bring in a check of $120,000-ish, and from what I can tell, they work pretty hard for it.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
2) a belief that you are buying something or exchanging your donation for something – blessings for example.
This one is probably closer to home than the other bad reasons to pay tithing elsewhere. I think that at SOME level you have the right to expect SOME reciprocity for faithful members and payment of tithing.
These include
a) General respect for your time and your agency.
b) A desire to help you on church mission critical issues when you, the member, can’t help yourself, and the church has resources in place, and a stated mission in that direction. I have my own examples, and they aren’t welfare or financially related.
c) a generally positive experience as a member of the community. Sure there are blips and problems and anomalies due to unusual circumstances, and personalities, But the landscape of your church experience needs to be generally positive over the course of a lifetime. And when it isn’t and you have been harshly treated by members, the leadership cares enough to deal with it.
d) Generally, an experience in the church that makes you happy over the long-run.
e) When payment of tithing impairs your ability to meet basic needs of your family. Sure you pay with faith, but I disagree with paying tithing and then being dependent on the Bishop for a food order. It seems wrong that that self-reliance principle goes out the window as soon as the principles stems the flow of financial resources to the church.
When there are patterns of violation of a) b) c) and d) , I personally start thinking the payment of tithing gets harder to justify than when there are no such patterns.
I hope a) to e) aren’t bad reasons for not paying, but they have influenced my thinking. And I think at some level quid pro quo should kick in. A very basic minimal level, but I don’t think it’s good for the spirit to give huge sums of money to an organization that you feel doesn’t deliver on its own values and promises, consistently. That has been my experience.
SD, I respect you and your position. You know that I have had and have my own struggles with tithing as we currently teach it. I feel that what Hawkgrrrl wrote can be grossly oversimplified into “Do good while feeling good”.
I believe your reply can be summarized as something in the ballpark of “That is not enough for me” or “I do not feel good doing it” or “I am not convinced that paying tithing = doing good.”
I believe in and respect all of those positions
for you, however I think it is important to highlight and state publically that other people may have completely valid reasons for choosing to pay tithing. Hawkgrrrl, Heber, and others have given good reasons why paying tithing may make sense for them in their lives. I understood what Hawk is saying differently. There is a “prosperity gospel” culture in the church. An examples like “Pay your tithing first and your other financial concerns will be taken care of.” There are testimonies where people believe that has occurred. Another example is the old “fire insurance.” And yet another is the promised blessing of the windows of heaven being opened even if we don’t have financial difficulty (prosperity gospel in it purest form – do what is right, get financially rewarded). However we look at these various forms of promised blessings for paying tithing, some people pay tithing simply for that reason whether or not they believe they have received such blessings. DarkJedi wrote:
I understood what Hawk is saying differently. There is a “prosperity gospel” culture in the church. An examples like “Pay your tithing first and your other financial concerns will be taken care of.” There are testimonies where people believe that has occurred. Another example is the old “fire insurance.” And yet another is the promised blessing of the windows of heaven being opened even if we don’t have financial difficulty (prosperity gospel in it purest form – do what is right, get financially rewarded). However we look at these various forms of promised blessings for paying tithing, some people pay tithing simply for that reason whether or not they believe they have received such blessings.
I think it was the prosperity gospel that got Roy. Roy — I think what opened your faith crisis was the fact that you thought that by paying tithing and being a Tr holder that things would go well, and then they didn’t. That opened up concerns that led to your coming here.
I personally feel that the prosperity gospel requires significant mental gymnastics to work. You have to justify why bad things happen. You have have to accentuate the positive, and sometimes, life just sucks and the prosperity gospel doesn’t work.
I am not on the that plan, but I see a few plans emerging
a) The Obedience plan (do it because you were told to. More for traditional believers than unorthodox people).
b) The Prosperity plan (pay your tithing and it comes back to you in increased wealth and blessings).
c) The reciprocity plan (pay your tithing without expecting prosperity, but do expect the church to reciprocate when you have needs they can help you fill that you can’t fill yourself).
d) the Avoidance plan (pay to avoid damnation and hellfire. Probably the least loving and motivating plan).
e) The Feel Good plan (give because doing so makes you feel like you did something kind and good).
I often hear church leaders doing their best to grasp for good reasons to pay tithing, and it comes out in many forms. SD listed some of those. For each of those…I can pick them apart because they are limited. They may inspire some folk who identify with that message at that time in their life. Which is what the leader is trying to do…grasp at something…anything…that is helpful or inspiring.
I sincerely believe the leaders do it with love hoping it helps a family to practice this principle and exercise faith…it isn’t motivated in greed or a money-hungry institution (I reject that totally and don’t think that greed motivation is common at all with leaders…in fact…the blessing of the church being so wealthy is that they aren’t so hung up on funds that they pressure people as they pass a plate around…they don’t need to anymore).
I think most church leaders see it spiritually, for a myriad of reasons. Most do not cling to “fire insurance” although some get caught up knowing how to teach or talk about it over the pulpit in other ways, so I certainly see why the criticism of those plans exist…because they get perpetuated.
At some point…no matter how many ways others try to give reason or justification for someone of modest means (like myself) sacrificing to a multi-billion dollar corporate religious non-profit organization those reasons by others fail to express the opportunity underneath it all … at some point we make our own story and our own justification to pay it or not pay it. And in that choice is faith manifest, and seeds of blessings are able to grow. This growth is so personal and subjective…they cannot be promised with great repeat-ability … only that some good can grow in some way.
The moment someone tries to limit it and frame it so it can be communicated is the moment it is inaccurate and limited to that moment which can be picked apart and criticized by me or anyone as inadequate.
Roy wrote:
I believe in and respect all of those positions for you, however I think it is important to highlight and state publically that other people may have completely valid reasons for choosing to pay tithing.
Well said, Roy.
On the flip side…anyone at church taking some hard line that any of those models SD laid out (and there are more we may hear) are universally going to valid reasons for ALL people…I would argue against that position as well.
I think truth is in the middle road. There will be some valid reasons for some to pay, and I support some who choose not to. We should trade up and find something that helps us feel at peace to do what we do…and let go of things that cause us angst by paying it or just criticizing leaders who try to do their best to inspire others hoping it helps bring blessings in their life.
SD – Your request was “Help me change my thinking.” We can’t. No one can. No one ever changes someone else’s mind. We are the only ones who change our thinking. Even when we change our mind, we let something in to change it.
As I have read your replies – three pages of thoughts have not bumped you in any way. That is okay. We all walk away unscathed from the effort. But you really didn’t want your mind changed. You want someone else’s mind changed. The Church, Your Wife, Us, Religious History? – I can’t say. All I know is as I read each of your responses I hear no Hmmm? I will think about that.
My friend your answer is cement for the time being. Perhaps you should discover who or what the real challenge is? It’s not the principle that’s getting you. Donating is not your issue. You need to find your root struggle. Good luck.
SilentDawning wrote:
DarkJedi wrote:
I understood what Hawk is saying differently. There is a “prosperity gospel” culture in the church. An examples like “Pay your tithing first and your other financial concerns will be taken care of.” There are testimonies where people believe that has occurred. Another example is the old “fire insurance.” And yet another is the promised blessing of the windows of heaven being opened even if we don’t have financial difficulty (prosperity gospel in it purest form – do what is right, get financially rewarded). However we look at these various forms of promised blessings for paying tithing, some people pay tithing simply for that reason whether or not they believe they have received such blessings.
I think it was the prosperity gospel that got Roy. Roy — I think what opened your faith crisis was the fact that you thought that by paying tithing and being a Tr holder that things would go well, and then they didn’t. That opened up concerns that led to your coming here.
I personally feel that the prosperity gospel requires significant mental gymnastics to work. You have to justify why bad things happen. You have have to accentuate the positive, and sometimes, life just sucks and the prosperity gospel doesn’t work.
I am not on the that plan, but I see a few plans emerging
a) The Obedience plan (do it because you were told to. More for traditional believers than unorthodox people).
b) The Prosperity plan (pay your tithing and it comes back to you in increased wealth and blessings).
c) The reciprocity plan (pay your tithing without expecting prosperity, but do expect the church to reciprocate when you have needs they can help you fill that you can’t fill yourself).
d) the Avoidance plan (pay to avoid damnation and hellfire. Probably the least loving and motivating plan).
e) The Feel Good plan (give because doing so makes you feel like you did something kind and good).
If you ever heard Joel Osteen preach, he’s pretty convincing when it comes to the prosperity gospel. (Yes, I sometimes watch TBN, EWTN, and the Catholic Channel and I believe I gain from doing so.)
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