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Today DW and I were talking. She is a TBM and doesn’t want to know any of the specifics of why I have a hard time with the truth claims, so we don’t talk about it much and we had reached a place of relative peace – don’t talk about the issues and we’re good. But today we were talking generically about my faith transition and she brought up how she feels so betrayed by me and how hurt she is. She told me how she feels like this is all my choice and I just don’t remember how to feel the Spirit because of mistakes in my past (mistakes that are nearly a decade old and fully repented of when I was a TBM).
I tried really hard to try to explain my journey without going into any specific details. About how this has been a loss for me as well (losing the comfort of a “true” church) and not what I signed up for either. How the only “choice” I made was to dig deeply in an effort to understand better and hopefully resolve the many issues on my shelf and the result of that honest and sincere effort was my loss of literal belief. I tried to help her understand that what I believe now is not a “choice” any more than it’s her choice not to believe in Santa Clause (that comment probably didn’t go over well).
She said she just wishes I could go back to where I was before and asked why I’m not trying to get back to that place of belief. I said that would be like trying to unlearn how to read – to just see random characters again now that I know what they really mean.
Ultimately I was at a loss. I just wanted to comfort her and reassure her that I love her, and I tried. But she was sobbing and I just felt like such a jerk of a husband. I understand how she’s feeling this way, but also wish she could try and understand my perspective.
So I’m asking for advice on what to say, how to say it, when to say it, any other material that might be helpful, etc. I am at a loss.
In a lot of situations, there’s no one thing you can say that will make everything better. In particular, you can’t take someone’s hurt away with exactly the right words. Explained to the believer: the effectiveness of “be comforted” is reserved for deity. Explained to us apostates: the idea that just the right words can bring such comfort is a conceit that has to go, like so many others. That being said, “I don’t understand what you’re going through, but I’ll sit with you in your grief” goes a long way.
In the medium-to-long term, the most poisonous thing that can happen to your relationship, and the most likely thing to bring it down, is lack of mutual respect. I’m sorry to say, and you’ve probably noticed, that the Church actively discourages respect in situations like ours. The story it tells about us is exactly what your wife told you about yourself: you’ve forgotten, you’ve sinned, you’re not trying hard enough. The Church arms its members with these false narratives to hurl when they feel betrayed, and teaches them by example that doing so is how to occupy the moral high ground. I know of only one GA statement to the contrary, by President Uchtdorf. (There are probably a few others, but not many.) My objective isn’t to raise hackles – though I might have just done that – but to point out that in this regard, you have an uphill battle. Your life has to demonstrate that these narratives are false. Your actions have to tell the true story. It sucks that minorities like us have to work so hard against power and privilege, but that’s the way the world has always been. It’s the thing about staying active that frustrates me the most.
If it helps – and honestly, it might not – right now, your wife is probably as incapable of believing the truth about your disaffection as you are of believing the Church’s truth claims. It won’t fit into her worldview yet. It’s like a leftover piece from what appears to be a perfectly completed jigsaw. It’s a thing of nonsense, an aberration; it’s 2+2=5. Worse, it’s a threat to her identity.
Ideally, she’d have someone besides you to talk to about your disaffection, who encourages respect or at least doesn’t push the false narratives. Does she have someone like that?
Has she read this? https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/07/when-he-stopped-believing While it suggests that obtaining a testimony again is the only correct choice for an unbeliever (of course it is!), it has a lot of good in it anyway.
Reuben wrote:
In the medium-to-long term, the most poisonous thing that can happen to your relationship, and the most likely thing to bring it down, is lack of mutual respect. I’m sorry to say, and you’ve probably noticed, that the Church actively discourages respect in situations like ours. The story it tells about us is exactly what your wife told you about yourself: you’ve forgotten, you’ve sinned, you’re not trying hard enough. The Church arms its members with these false narratives to hurl when they feel betrayed, and teaches them by example that doing so is how to occupy the moral high ground. I know of only one GA statement to the contrary, by President Uchtdorf. (There are probably a few others, but not many.)
Thanks. It’s hard finding this to be the case. I can respect where she’s at and her viewpoints because I was there not too long ago. But she’s never been where I’m at and only has those false narratives to rely on. And she is “hurling” them at me pretty hard. But I can take it. I just hate how it’s hurting her so much. I support her and the kids, I’m there for them and her, I help around the house, I provide a very comfortable life style for them, I’m absolutely committed to her and our family and I’m faithful to her. But because my beliefs have changed, I’m still the bad guy. And that’s hard.
Do you know the reference to that Uchtdorf quote?
And she doesn’t have anyone to talk except other TBMs that will continue to support the narrative that there’s something fundamentally wrong with me.
DoubtingTom wrote:
Do you know the reference to that Uchtdorf quote?
Come, Join With UsQuote:
The search for truth has led millions of people to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, there are some who leave the Church they once loved.One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”
Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.
Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.
In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.
DoubtingTom wrote:
And she doesn’t have anyone to talk except other TBMs that will continue to support the narrative that there’s something fundamentally wrong with me.
Ack.
Is it possible to get support from local priesthood leaders? Are you still the EQ president?
I’d love to replace one of her friends with my wife. It’s too bad the world doesn’t work that way.
Reuben wrote:
Is it possible to get help from local priesthood leaders? Are you still the EQ president?I’d love to replace one of her friends with my wife. It’s too bad the world doesn’t work that way.
I wish she had someone more understanding to talk to.
I don’t know what kind of help local priesthood leaders could offer other than the traditional narrative.
Yea, I’m still the EQP. My stake president wants to meet with me tomorrow (on Father’s Day!) and I could have said no, but I’m planning on asking to be released. It’s time. I’ve hung in as long as I can as my faith has continued to unravel. I’m at a point now where I don’t think he would honestly want me serving in this role. I need to take a step back and focus on supporting my wife and figuring out where I’m at as well.
Stop talking. At least to her. On this subject. Give her time. Maybe even a lifetime of time. As the one once in her position – you have terrified her. The pain is equivalent to marital betrayal. It hurts that much. It is that scary. No matter how much it hurts you, it freezes her. She wasn’t looking or expecting it. Her world frame has no reference point to this. It may in time. It happened for me. I have seen it happen to other family members and friends. But if you honor her at all
stopmaking Santa Clause statements etc. it is only going to alienate anything you have. It’s easy to blame the church. Just as believers blame non-believers. But we aren’t the only religion or marriages that face this. As hard as it is to hear right now – she deserves your commitment to her first. That may mean a lifetime of silence from you. Or it may mean she just needs time.
Vent here, cry here, rage here. PM people. But don’t do it to her until all your anger has run dry.
Don’t share your details with the SP or anyone. Not until you are calm.Like Zen calmAccept this crisis as an opportunity to love far beyond anything you have done in your life. Whether she stays with you or leaves. Love her as the highest human being on earth. Time will take care of the rest.
My response is always to recommend Thomas Wirthlin McConkie’s “Navigating a Mormon Faith Crisis.” Not at Deseret Book last time I looked, but maybe Signature and certainly Amazon. The title is boring with a capital “B,” and the cover art is off-putting, but I think it’s pure gold on the inside. http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7023&p=98634&hilit=Thomas+wirthlin+mcconkie#p98634 Otherwise, my too-simple advice is to be loving and at least look happy. The more comfortable I was in my own skin, the less tension in our house.
One of the HARDEST things for a TBM spouse of someone like you or me, is wondering how you could abandon something so precious and so central to your life… and what would keep you from discarding your marriage, the same way you discarded the Church. It’s hard not to feel very insecure, especially when the Church emphasizes placing your love and your duty to God before all else. There’s also the difficulty of keeping the commandments. We are often taught in Church that we should keep the commandments out of love for God, or at the very least, out of “duty to God”. We are taught that the commandments are good because they are given by God. If there was no God, there would be no good or evil, no sin or righteousness… that without God, we are “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men…” What’s to stop you from being unfaithful to your wife?
Deep down, her concerns are probably not about your religious faith, so much as the fear of losing you. Be sure to comfort her, to reassure her that you’re not going anywhere, that your feelings haven’t changed, that you made a promise when you married, and that you fully intend to keep that promise (God or no God). Make sure she knows that your “faith transistion” has nothing to do with her, or your love for her, or commitment towards her. Reassure her often; she is in a very delicate place.
As always, mom3 wins the thread. (Why, yes, everything does have to be a competition with me.) Read, re-read, and re-re-read, especially the last paragraph. The reason I asked about support from local leadership is that 1) most believing members will listen to authority, and 2) given that your leaders know about your faith transition and you’re still EQP, they might not push the false narrative. He’s the thing, though: I was still thinking in terms of
fixing your wife, which is the wrong way to think about it right now. I’m going to stop thinking about it that way. Let’s talk about specific things you should and shouldn’t do.
You’ve already identified the Santa Claus analogy as coming across as condescending. Yeah, don’t use it. In fact,
almost all the analogies we use to understand ourselves and what’s happened to us come across as threatening or condescending to believers. The Santa Claus analogy correctly captures the impossibility of wilfully changing beliefs, but to do so, requires an object of belief that’s fundamentally unbelievable, which paints believers as silly. Some analogies try to capture our sense of betrayal, which comes across as blame. Avoid those analogies especially. Your analogy about unlearning how to read captures the impossibility of not understanding a new way to interpret evidence once you’ve understood it the new way, but implies that believers’ understandings are analogous to being illiterate. That one also has to go. Further, if you actually believe that implication to any degree, find a way to unbelieve it, pronto.
There are analogies that are safer: the broken shelf, the fallen tower, the death of a loved one, the candlestick/lovers image. But as mom3 says, don’t initiate, and probably just politely request (with absolutely nothing that resembles bitterness) to not talk about your faith transition for a while.
Focus on what you do believe. Find every way you can to express these beliefs in Mormon terms.
Don’t say “I can’t do that” about any faith-related duty. Instead, express what you
cando – or if possible just do it. If you need time to work out what you can do, it’s fair to ask for time. Ask on this forum for ideas. You’ll probably never fully succeed, but do try to understand your wife’s terror. You know what it’s like to believe 100%, but one thing you’re missing is what it’s like to utterly depend on someone else for your welfare in this life and in eternity. Imagine that a person you depend on for everything, now and forever, leads you to believe that he or she might not follow through. You would need a lot of reassurance, in word and in action. You would need to feel safe again before engaging with this person’s reasons. It wouldn’t matter whether what made you feel unsafe mostly existed in your head, because the stakes are just so high.
This web site has some great ideas, and you might even find some hope in it:
According to the Gottmans, the keys are respect and having a high ratio of positive to negative interactions. Chase those positive interactions.
Dr. Kristy Money has some great ideas as well, and IIRC some of them are things the unbelieving spouse can do alone:
It sucks. It really, really sucks when the people closest to us can’t help us when we need help the most, and even push us away. It might help to remember that your wife, whether she has good reasons or not, probably feels the same way.
The advice I like to give is to become aware of her emotional needs. Go to http://www.marriagebuilders.com and read about Willard Harley Junior’s emotional needs questionnaire. He believes that meeting other people’s most important emotional needs is what keeps love alive. Find out what makes her feel love for you. Family commitment is probably one of those needs, and your faith transition probably hurt the church aspect of it.So, you have to up your investment in meeting her other needs to compensate.
Also, don’t talk about your faith differences. I don’t talk about them with my wife as it upsets her too.
But the marriage chugs along as I go to church, hold a calling, and support her and my kids in it.
Are you holding a TR and being active in church? Do that stuff and that can help if you feel you can.
Interesting, my daughter may well get married in the next couple years. She wants to be in the temple and asked if I’d be mad if she is married in the temple when I don’t have a TR. And she doesn’t want me just to get a TR for the ceremony and NOT make a permanent change.
We decided mutually that we will not let the church or the temple come between our family relationships. Such is our commitment to each other. Strange to say that, as the church and temple is about uniting families, although it has the potential to break them unless you manage it.
You might consider having a conversation that affirms that commitment to each other. When my daughter and I finished that conversation, it was beautiful. I reminded her that all the people in the sealing room with me when I did the temple sealing are no longer part of my life. Yet my non-mem family either didn’t come or sat outside the temple, not part of the experience. They are the only ones that I’m still in contact, and even that is semi-rarely except for my sister. The temple thing really hurt our relationship.
Getting to the point where your relationship transcends the church is liberating, and in my view, is a very high form of love.
Whatever you can do to get to that point….
Shut up and love her, if that is what she needs. Love her – then love her more – then love her more – in an eternal round. She didn’t change; you did. You loved her as she was, so love her as she is. Make sure she knows you love her as much as you ever have. Don’t just say it; prove it. No expectations of understanding. If it happens, fine; if not, fine. Doesn’t matter; love her.
One final analogy:
Adam chose to leave the peaceful presence of God to remain in pain and hardship with Eve. The main character in “What Dreams May Come” stayed with his wife in Hell rather than be in Heaven by himself – because Heaven without her would have been Hell, while Hell with her was Heaven. Don’t say it that way to your wife (those exact words), but make sure she knows you will never leave her, no matter what. Become sealed to her – not just symbolically through an ordinance but in practical terms.
In other words, what mom3 said.
One final thought – Santa Clause You may not believe in Santa Clause but will you still be having Christmas?
In our house I have 2 “believers”. They know he’s just a story. They know that the volunteer Santa at the mall is just someone’s dad or grandpa. Yet all the same Santa still plays a role in our Christmas season.
Some traditions have melted away as they have matured. Other’s they choose not to let go of. We still have
The Night Before Christmasbook with all of it’s gorgeous drawings. We still make homemade cookies just for him. We still play all the music. This year we recited the Night Before Christmas story after we had our Bethlehem Dinner (we do that on Dec. 24th). The kids, now 27, 24, and 21, still wrap and sign some gifts “From Santa”. It brings joy. It harms no one. And adds some extra delight to life.
My husband is agnostic. Some times boarder line atheist. Yet he has willed his mind and heart to let a Christ person be of value to me. Neither of us can prove Jesus Christ, as religions and Mormonism, teach him. But if you hang your hat on the beatitudes and his parables, you find inspiration. Even if he was just a Rabbi from Nazareth whose story became mythical. My husbands willingness to make that room has been a gift to us.
This faith journey, in my opinion, may be one of God’s greatest gifts. Sadly it is wrapped in scratchy, brown paper, but inside, the contents invite us to be more like Deity and the Divine than anything I have ever experienced. To me it’s worth the walk.
Thank you all so much for your kind and thoughtful replies. I’ve had tears in my eyes as I’ve read some of your responses. The theme I’m getting from most of these comments is to just try extra hard to love her and show her that love. I’ll have to really up the ante and do my best. Thanks for the help.
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