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I ran across this blog post on reddit. It tries to explain how exmormons feel to TBMs and does a great job at not being anti. You might be able to get some ideas from it. ydeve wrote:
I ran across this blog post on reddit. It tries to explain how exmormons feel to TBMs and does a great job at not being anti. You might be able to get some ideas from it.Great article. Thank you for sharing.
Reuben wrote:Focus on what you do believe. Find every way you can to express these beliefs in Mormon terms.
I was going to say this. I think this is really important, because you can talk and talk and talk forever about the past and how or why things changed and never really come to a full understanding, perhaps.But one thing that is important is what you do now, and what you choose to do about it moving forward.
Fight her fears and your fears with love now. Find things that show her you are good deep down. Find the things that show you still seek goodness, God, spirituality, all the things that help you love her and serve others.
Look for daily small tender mercies of kindness. What are things she would appreciate? Do those small things often. Dishes. Bathrooms. Edge the lawn if she notices that. If you feel you can…see if you can have prayer with her showing you don’t hate God…you simply are searching for truth…and prayer is a dialogue with ourselves, but she can hear your sincerity in your prayers, even if you don’t know that any “being” is out there listening…you can just express love from your heart. Find common ground subjects to talk about…such as this General Conference talk on love and acceptance, or topics on Christ loving the woman caught in adultery, or the good Samaritan. The basic bible stories about goodness…not the questionable bible stories (avoid those).
Give give her something to see your heart…not just all the doubts that she has to fill in blanks.
There is so much goodness int he church and in religion that we can focus on…that when we go through transitions we can sometimes focus on the doubts and hurt and forget to balance it with other stuff.
You may even feel like doubling service efforts is a good way to find common ground and reassure her of good things. Someone in the ward needs help moving furniture…be the first to raise your hand to help. That has nothing to do with Joseph Smith. That is just being Christ-like.
Someone needs to help drive the youth to activities…raise your hand…show you care about others and the community.
Cleaning the church always needs to be done, setting up chairs, home teaching, picking up cheerios in the chapel, yardwork for the elderly in the ward…opportunities to serve are endless and have nothing to do with the history of polygamy or archeology or any of those tangents.
Separate out church from gospel, and if you are letting go of some church literal truths, that leaves more room for true gospel truths…so fill it.
Those are some ideas on some things you can do, because as others have said…at some point you shut up and stop talking or it makes it worse. Not stop talking forever…you can find the right moments and times to express feelings and connect with each other as a couple to develop trust and commitment between you both. But sometimes you need the loving actions to create a safe place to talk about differences, while giving her lots of examples of how much you deeply care about her, about spirituality, and about others. Then the talks can go a bit smoother.
I don’t think a person has to say they don’t want an eternal family just because they are unsure about ordinances in the temple. A person can still want and hope for the eternal family, even if we are trying to figure out what that means, and have hope that temple work allows for us to keep working on things well past this life. So…while the fears are real, and the challenge to a couple is real…the church really is giving lots of room for families to work things out over eternity…and we don’t need to panic or be worried now…we just need to focus on becoming the person God wants us to become…and be loving and patient as Christ teaches.
I like the Uchtdorf quote. There are many others also. The idea is that we don’t need to fear change, but look at it as ways to grow.
Always trade up, and look for common ground to build on…and some fears can be minimized. Be a good person. And love her always.
I think this is a process…it takes time. Be patient with yourself, and with her. You have changed the terms in the marriage. Own that, and move forward reassuring her there is so much goodness to hold on to. Even if some things hurt when change happens. It will be OK. Show her.
Number one thing we must all do, those of us who have believing spouses, is to recognize that it is WE who have changed, not our spouses; own that fact and then carry the burden for our spouses as much as we can. From a recent thread: On Own Now wrote:
we have to realize that when we have a believing spouse, we’ve caused a lot of anguish. My wife has been more impacted by my FC than I have, only she is 100% collateral damage. She is still true to what we both believed all those years ago when we emerged from the temple with our family/friends. I have changed, not her. But while I have found peace in my new beliefs, her life is at constant tension with her beliefs. She believes and she is active. I believe there is no God and I’m “less” active. What we used to share we now avoid. We don’t pray together or read scriptures together. Trying to get me to go to an extra-curricular Church activity is usually not worth the effort for her. I go with her to Church, but not to Sunday School. I often go home before she does. I scrutinize every calling she is ever given. I don’t usually attend Tithing Settlement with her. We have Church friends, but I’m not as fully engaged as I might have been before with Church friends.
Too often, we take the position that we are the victim’s of our faith crisis, but then we go on toward a new life with lots of possibilities and we explore the aspects of our now-free faith that resonate with us. We are free in that sense and many of us eventually say that we are glad to have become free. Our spouses are true victims. All they have is what they had before, but a lot less of it.My advice is not to seek to change her or convince her, but simply to bear this burden for her, love her, support her, accept her and her unchanged faith and find a way yourself to change your own outlook on it.
On Own Now wrote:
Too often, we take the position that we are the victim’s of our faith crisis, but then we go on toward a new life with lots of possibilities and we explore the aspects of our now-free faith that resonate with us. We are free in that sense and many of us eventually say that we are glad to have become free. Our spouses are true victims. All they have is what they had before, but a lot less of it.
I agree, OON, and I think that is a good general statement to keep in mind to help us navigate these things.
I don’t sense, and I don’t think you mean to imply, that Tom specifically was not taking ownership or not recognizing his part…in fact, Tom sounds pretty meek in his approach at knowing this is hard on them “both”…and not really playing the victim card, even if asking for help on continuing to handle it.
So…your point is a good one for us all to remember as we try to talk with a spouse. Change happens, and for some of us, over a long period of time that we work internally to come to the point where we decide something and say it out loud. The person hearing it has not has the same amount of time to work through those ideas and process them. It is a good reminder.
Heber13 wrote:
I don’t sense, and I don’t think you mean to imply, that Tom specifically was not taking ownership or not recognizing his part…in fact, Tom sounds pretty meek in his approach at knowing this is hard on them “both”…and not really playing the victim card, even if asking for help on continuing to handle it.
Yes, completely agree.On Own – This is beautiful. I wish we could sticky it somewhere.
Quote:we have to realize that when we have a believing spouse, we’ve caused a lot of anguish. My wife has been more impacted by my FC than I have, only she is 100% collateral damage. She is still true to what we both believed all those years ago when we emerged from the temple with our family/friends. I have changed, not her. But while I have found peace in my new beliefs, her life is at constant tension with her beliefs. She believes and she is active. I believe there is no God and I’m “less” active. What we used to share we now avoid. We don’t pray together or read scriptures together. Trying to get me to go to an extra-curricular Church activity is usually not worth the effort for her. I go with her to Church, but not to Sunday School. I often go home before she does. I scrutinize every calling she is ever given. I don’t usually attend Tithing Settlement with her. We have Church friends, but I’m not as fully engaged as I might have been before with Church friends.
Thank you for the wisdom.
OON, I echo my thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I must agree this has been harder on her than on me. True, I have had many restless nights as I felt like I was in a free fall and everything I thought I “knew” was slipping away. I’ve had my existential moments, but it has all been my journey. On the other hand, my wife feels as though she is completely at the mercy of my decisions and has no control over the process. I’m working on how I can make her feel secure and safe. I can continue to do extra acts of service and such, but that can only go so far, especially if she feels like I am just trying to compensate for the hurt and fear I am causing. I like the advice many of you have given about focusing on what I do believe and helping her see there is still much to hold onto. The problem is, right now I don’t feel I have much left to hold onto in terms of belief. I do believe in family and the importance of marriage. I do believe in service and being a good, empathetic, and charitable person. But I am still working on what I believe about God, Jesus Christ, scriptures, prayer, and the Gospel over all.
I am hopeful though, and while I feel at peace with where I’m at in my journey right now, including finally feeling I can be at peace and content with just how much I don’t know. That was one of the hardest parts of my faith transition – before I “knew” so much with so much surety and that was so satisfying. And now I have found just as much satisfaction (if not more) in not knowing, but it was difficult to get here. Now she needs time to adapt to my new beliefs and to feel secure again.
I am doing my best to take ownership of this and how difficult it is for her and not play the victim card. Thanks again everyone.
DoubtingTom wrote:
I do believeinfamily and the importance of marriage. I do believe inservice and being a good, empathetic, and charitable person. But I am still working on what I believe about God, Jesus Christ, scriptures, prayer, and the Gospel over all.
IMHO, for those who suffer a faith crisis and thereby enter a faith transition, what we believeinis more important than what we believe. From an old thread in response to a woman in faith transition who had a believing husband: On Own Now wrote:
When I first started to express to my wife that I was no longer a believer, there was worry and concern.For me, I felt pretty devastated, set adrift, confused, lost. I didn’t know where life would take me. I didn’t know what to do with myself. That was my side of it.
It turned out that my wife also had a side. It was that she felt sad for me, devastated, confused, she didn’t know where life would take her. She didn’t know what to do with me.
She didn’t know if I was going to start to become an alcoholic, stop spending time at home, get tattoos on my forehead, quit my career and become a drifter, become an angry person, become anti-mormon, have an affair, etc. At the time, I kind of felt like, “of course I’m not going to do that”, but now that I look back, I realize that all those things were potentially on the table, because I was experiencing a sea-change about my own self-identity. Well, not the affair, and maybe not the forehead, but everything else was a possibility. It was an uncertain time for me, and it was also, differently but just as intensely, an uncertain time for her.
I suggest… reassuring your husband that you are still the same person that he married and that while your faith is changing, that your core is not. You still want to be a good person, you still want to have a full life together, and that more than anything else, you love your husband, and need him more now than ever.
On Own – Bless you a thousand times over for your wisdom and insight. D.T. – Go Big for a while. Nuts and bolts stuff. Take her on fun vacations. Splurge on projects that will make her happy. Do chores without being asked. etc. Retell and share happy memories with her.
If you don’t go to church, go the extra mile at home, have dinner ready and the table set. Look for uplifting life stories to share with her – these demonstrate your hope for the future.
If you need, start a private journal of thoughts you wish you could wish share with her. Someday down the road you may get to. But you writing/typing it out allows it to still be in your relationship. In the journal express how scared you are. Your sorrows for both of you. Your dreams for just one day. No more than that.
Read Anatomy of Peace, Og Mandino, and Gottman. They are great life tool teachers.
Don’tmake weird faces when she talks about church. Or clear your throat. Or mock her convictions in any way. Save every complaint for here. We’ve all ridden the roller coaster. Scream as loud as you want on these pages. You won’t scare us. There are atheists, and deists galore here.
You’ll do this. Plenty of us here are succeeding at this. Take hope from that. Many of us have been at it for decades. We are happy to have you join us. Last of all, if she wants someone to vent you, you can PM me – I will send you my email and she can write me when ever she likes.
So many good thoughts, DT. I think you are handling things courageously…and I know it is not easy. A few words of advice on this board may be stuff you already know and are trying, and yet…it still doesn’t make it easy, or feel great. It is still a season of hard work, and fear, and doubt. I just want to reiterate, you seem to be doing the best you can. And that is all God expects in our hearts, that we do our best and avoid the anger and sin of pride.
I don’t know if it helps to give some words of encouragement…but just as a friend to help…I hope you are not too hard on yourself either. Cut yourself some slack…you didn’t ask for this. It happened. You were thrown into Stage 4 (of Fowler’s Stages), and you wish you weren’t. But that is where you are. Now you have to deal with it, and you are doing your best, and you are clinging to your relationships and family and you are caring about how it impacts them at the same time. That should be acknowledged. You are a good example of handling this all.
Some thoughts about how you voiced things in your post:
DoubtingTom wrote:
I can continue to do extra acts of service and such, but that can only go so far, especially if she feels like I am just trying to compensate for the hurt and fear I am causing. I like the advice many of you have given about focusing on what I do believe and helping her see there is still much to hold onto.Very insightful that you see it this way. Those acts of service cannot be manipulative or agenda driven or hypocritical. Simply…they are acts of love and should be rooted in love. Sometimes, when we are in pain, acts of love help lift us above our own pain and circumstance. Intent should be pure, whether others see it or not…it will be a good thing to do. Trade up!
Quote:The problem is, right now I don’t feel I have much left to hold onto in terms of belief. I do believe in family and the importance of marriage. I do believe in service and being a good, empathetic, and charitable person. But I am still working on what I believe about God, Jesus Christ, scriptures, prayer, and the Gospel over all.
Well said. While you are still working on this (meaning you don’t have an anti-mormon mission to destroy the church…you are just working on things…that is OK)…remember to study and review the gospel basics. I loved teaching primary because it reminded me of how the simply gospel teachings at a high level are all so pure and I believe in so much of it…it is the deeper specifics that sometimes get murky and clouded and confusing…so i try to raise back up to the level of the gospel I whole-heartedly and honestly believe in.
I used to think about church stuff so specifically…God was a man, with a beard, and a robe, and toenails. Does him having toenails matter if I love my children and teach them values or not? not to me. So…regardless of what I now doubt and wonder about…it doesn’t have to impact my marriage or children just because I no longer feel good about the specific details anymore. Sometimes I just add another “O” and I feel better about church teachings. Meaning…instead of defining what I think about “God” with one “O”…I just frame what is being said at church as “good” with 2 “O”s. Now…I can keep look at teachings as things that come from good (whatever we want to frame that as)…and it works in good faith.
For example….look at
mormon.orgQuote:The goal of our earthly test is to return to our Heavenly Father as a more intelligent, more mature, and more compassionate being—to be more like Him. But we won’t all have the same experiences. Each life on earth is unique, and each one of us will experience life a little differently. Some lives include physical challenges; all involve temptations and difficulties of one kind or another. We each have specific strengths and weaknesses, and our Father knows us well. He knows how we can best grow from our experiences, and He gives us commandments to enable us to reach our potential. But it’s up to us whether we will choose to obey.
Is there anything in that statement you DON’T believe in? It seems to apply to everyone. Now some may focus in on the word “test” and say they don’t believe in that…again…don’t get myopic on one word. The general idea is…life is about growing from our experience here on earth. However you want to believe in specifics can vary (maybe there isn’t even an anthropomorphic man of a heavenly father, don’t get caught up in the details). Life is about becoming who you are supposed to become. When you feel yourself being pulled down to specific levels and things that make it hard to believe…pull yourself back up to a level where it is connected with a gospel principle you do believe in…love, growth, experience…and see how much you do believe in. I mean…when you look at that Mormon.org page and the stuff we teach…a lot of it is good stuff.
And it goes on with this:
Quote:We may not choose the experiences we are given in our lives, but we do choose how we respond. We can be angry, refusing to move forward and stagnating in our progress. Or we can choose to use our experiences to become more compassionate, more purposeful, and wiser. As we learn about God and come to understand His purpose for us, we become more responsible for our choices. The more we know, the more He expects us to do our best and to help others do better too.
Is there anything in those statements you cannot accept and must reject because you don’t believe it?
Because I think that was more along the lines of what I was suggesting, and it is right from the church’s website. With our experiences, you can be angry (which you are not), or you can use the experience of the faith crisis to be more compassionate, more purposeful, and wiser. It does not prescribe in detail HOW you must do that. How is all opinions of many people. Some will say that means go to the temple more, and will advise you of that. Some will say read your scriptures more. Some will say (like some idiot Heber13 on a dumb website) to volunteer to do more cleaning chapels and service.
Those are all ideas. But HOW you choose to do it is up to you, because God wants to find what helps YOU…but if you are in line with being compassionate, purposeful and wise about it…you are really agreeing with gospel principles. Maybe you disagree with a ban on coffee…those are details that God may not care so much about if he knows you are being purposeful in what you DO believe in and it is goodness.
Just some ideas and examples.
I believe if you want to try to help the talks with your spouse to go well…you also need to know how you talk to yourself and frame it in your own mind so you do not create stumbling blocks when you try to convey it to others.
This is not nuance to be manipulative. I truly believe it can be exactly what mormon.org is saying the gospel teaches…that we go through experiences so we may gain wisdom.
You don’t want to just obey without thinking and never understanding why we obey. So this “faith crisis” is a way to check what you truly believe.
1 Cor 13:11 wrote:When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things
Having us grow up and change thinking is consistent with our mortal journey. And we aren’t perfect…but we try our best.
Reassuring our spouse of our heart and intentions is key in overcoming fears. And there are good logical reasons for change that are positive.
You don’t want to believe in “certainty” when the gospel teaches we must have faith…and within faith is a space where no certainty can live…or it would be knowledge and not faith. If you wanted certainty or had it in the past…God may be telling you it is time to learn to live without it…and throw you a curveball to see how you handle becoming the person you need to become
without certainty. I believe God WANTS us to go on a faith journey, and when we don’t choose it ourselves, he sometimes throws us into Stage 4 so we can learn to swim.
It introduces change to a marriage and relationship…but it may become one of the greatest changes, and may have opportunities to expand the abilities to be compassionate and loving and see how to truly love another person even when things change.
But…it can be hard. And so…we are here to support you and check your thinking if you want some outside advice, or experiences on how others have done things.
That is just my advice to you. Stay positive minded and loving and full of service and compassion. Throw away the desire for certainty and realize that now the training wheels are off, and God has a new experience he knows you and your family are ready for.
I like mom3’s advice and some other readings…to open your mind to how gospel principles fit with what feels right to you. As it says in D&C 88:119:
Quote:And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.
Remember the faith part…not just reading other books that are not on LDS.org…but also by faith showing and living them.
Also…I always have tried to balance my study…reading non-LDS books of scriptures with Gen Conf talks and BOM and LDS scripture…and did both simultaneously. It helped provide balance that the good teachings we have in mormonism can be found in the best books and best wisdom of the ages. And I discard the stuff that doesn’t help expand my soul, or I don’t yet understand.
Quote:I am doing my best to take ownership of this and how difficult it is for her and not play the victim card. Thanks again everyone.
And that is all you can do…your best. Thanks for sharing with us so much and for your posts here.
Heber13 wrote:For example….look at
mormon.orgQuote:The goal of our earthly test is to return to our Heavenly Father as a more intelligent, more mature, and more compassionate being—to be more like Him. But we won’t all have the same experiences. Each life on earth is unique, and each one of us will experience life a little differently. Some lives include physical challenges; all involve temptations and difficulties of one kind or another. We each have specific strengths and weaknesses, and our Father knows us well. He knows how we can best grow from our experiences, and He gives us commandments to enable us to reach our potential. But it’s up to us whether we will choose to obey.
Is there anything in that statement you DON’T believe in? It seems to apply to everyone. Now some may focus in on the word “test” and say they don’t believe in that…again…don’t get myopic on one word. The general idea is…life is about growing from our experience here on earth. However you want to believe in specifics can vary (maybe there isn’t even an anthropomorphic man of a heavenly father, don’t get caught up in the details). Life is about becoming who you are supposed to become. When you feel yourself being pulled down to specific levels and things that make it hard to believe…pull yourself back up to a level where it is connected with a gospel principle you do believe in…love, growth, experience…and see how much you do believe in. I mean…when you look at that Mormon.org page and the stuff we teach…a lot of it is good stuff.
And it goes on with this:
Quote:We may not choose the experiences we are given in our lives, but we do choose how we respond. We can be angry, refusing to move forward and stagnating in our progress. Or we can choose to use our experiences to become more compassionate, more purposeful, and wiser. As we learn about God and come to understand His purpose for us, we become more responsible for our choices. The more we know, the more He expects us to do our best and to help others do better too.
Is there anything in those statements you cannot accept and must reject because you don’t believe it?
Great insight Heber in terms of finding what I do believe in. I definitely can believe that a major purpose of our lives is to have experiences and in how we learn and grow from those experiences. I might get hung up on whether or not there is a literal Father in Heaven that we are trying to become more like, but that doesn’t change that I believe it’s important to learn and grow and improve from our experiences.
I have loved so much all the kind and thoughtful responses I have received on this post. I am going to make a collection of all of these suggestions into a word document to print out and keep by my bed. Thanks again for all who have contributed your experiences with this important issue!
It was my husband who was having doubts first and when he told me ” I don’t think the church is what it claims to be” my heart broke into a million pieces as he told me all he was thinking. I cried more in the following days then I ever had before. In most lds marriages it’s the faith that binds you two together, so the thought of that ” glue” being taken away is terrifying. Like others have said, just give it time. My husband gave me time to breathe and didn’t bring stuff up for awhile, that helped. your wife’s pain may not ever go away completely, but it can change and she will start to learn how to handle it and live with it.
None of this stuff is easy or fair, and none of us asked for it, not the one having the crisis or the spouse.
Quit trying to fix her and the situation. She can do her own needed repairs on her emotions. Quote:As Ray wrote:
“Shut up and love her, if that is what she needs.
Love her – then love her more – then love her more – in an eternal round. She didn’t change; you did. You loved her as she was, so love her as she is. Make sure she knows you love her as much as you ever have. Don’t just say it; prove it. No expectations of understanding. If it happens, fine; if not, fine. Doesn’t matter; love her. “
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