Here’s the Real Me

[Anonymous]

I have lurked here for awhile and decided it’s time to jump in. I am married in the temple with four great kids, returned missionary. My wife is fairly active in the church and is believing. I am not active and haven’t been for a couple years due to some doubts and questions I have about church history and doctrine. I’m not even sure there is a God, so it goes beyond the church and is about religion in general. I do like the cultural aspects of the church and desire to stay a part of it for that reason because it’s all I have ever known. I do have friends in the church but they are not aware of the extent of my questions. I can’t see myself going back to church anytime soon because I have a hard time sitting there listening to stuff I don’t believe. My wife also doesn’t know the extent of by questions and doubts and has been patient with me. I do have a home teacher who comes regularly but he is a pretty boring kind of guy and we don’t have much in common. My bishop is more into being an “administer” rather than a “minister.” I borrowed that one from a friend, but I think he’s right. The bishop hasn’t met with me or even talked to me since I asked to be released from my calling when I stopped going to church. I am assigned as a home teacher but I have told the elders quorum president I won’t go. He tried to throw a guilt trip on me, telling me I am accountable to God for home teaching, but it didn’t work.

I don’t know if I should put this here or over in the support forum. Our youngest was 7 went I stopped going to church. He’s 9 now and has not been baptized. The other 3 have been baptized but the older son has not received the priesthood. Like I said, my wife has been patient but she has come to the point where she really thinks our son needs to be baptized and the other one needs the priesthood. She talked to the bishop and he said I didn’t have to be temple worthy to do a baptism but I couldn’t do the confirmation and I couldn’t ordain my other son but can stand in the circle. Since the boy is 9 now his baptism counts as a convert baptism, even though he’s born in the covenant and active. I see that these are rights of passage for the kids and things that I should be a part of, and I do want to be but I don’t want other people doing what I should be doing. On the other hand, I can’t do them and I don’t see myself being in that place for awhile – if ever. The baptism is scheduled in a couple weeks. I am so torn on this, what should I do?

[Anonymous]

Welcome RM ,

This is a common problem for people like us. The LDS church has these life events that require “worthiness” in order to participate.

I have tried to find previous threads on this topic that might benefit you:

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4210&hilit=+baptism

Is about doing the baptism even if you have reservations about its spiritual significance.

http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4587&hilit=+baptism

Describes my conversations with my bishop in the months leading up to the baptism of our oldest child. I intentionally kept it vague and hopeful in order to keep my options to perform the ordinance open.

RealMe wrote:

I see that these are rites of passage for the kids and things that I should be a part of, and I do want to be but I don’t want other people doing what I should be doing. On the other hand, I can’t do them and I don’t see myself being in that place for awhile – if ever. The baptism is scheduled in a couple weeks. I am so torn on this, what should I do?

I think you should do the baptism. It is to the bishop’s discretion to allow you to participate or not. It is actually a good thing that he is willing to let you do this as it could have gone the other way.

As for the confirmation and the ordination – I think you should go ahead on those as well. I do not say this lightly as it is my dream to pass down the same priesthood line of authority that was given me by my own father. However, in the end this needs to be about the child – Their Big Day. As hard as it would be for me, I would end up swallowing my pride – put on a happy face for the kid and participate in whatever way was permitted.

I see you, your spouse, and your children – all with real concerns, hopes, and feelings. I just hope that whatever happens meets the greater need and doesn’t leave people out in the cold (metaphorically speaking). The only part of this that you have any real control over is your own reaction.

I hope that this helps.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the reply Roy. Like I said I have been lurking and knew that you had been there with the baptism thing. Did you do the baptism and confirmation?

It’s more of a disblelief thing than a pride thing. I can see that pride is involved though. I don’t know that the bishop will allow me to baptize I only know he told my wife I didn’t have to be temple worthy. I haven’t talked to him. Since it’s a convert baptism the confirmation will take place in church so I wouldn’t have to be a part of that. If I did it I would want no one else but the minmum required there. No missionaries or anybody outside the immediate family and only the needed priesthood. That doesn’t all work for the confirmation part. My real inclination is not to go or be a part of it. That will probably hurt my son’s feelings but I also have my own mental health and well being to consider.

[Anonymous]

RealMe,

Welcome. I hope you find help in this community as I have. I look forward to hearing from you.

My advice is to celebrate your son’s baptism as a spiritual event, rather than a Church event. I think it would be good to meet with your bishop and express a desire for your children to be baptized and ordained and your desire to participate (if you want). He might soften on the ordaining to the AP. It’s not worth arguing over, so I only point this out for reasons why you could legitimately make the request, but keep in mind that the Levitical Priesthood in ancient times was by birthright; it’s a very low-level concept. If you were born into the Tribe of Levi, that was it… no need for interviews or presentation in front of the ward, even. If you can baptize your son, there should be no reason you can’t confer the AP on your other son. Again, though, if it turns into an argument, you won’t win.

FWIW, I baptized my children and their grandfathers confirmed. I conferred the AP, others did the MP. I’m fine with that. I was happy to be able to do the ordinances that I could, and was understanding and respectful of not being able to do the others.

Also, I sense your annoyance that the Bishop hasn’t reached out to you. I would simply point out that others here have been annoyed when a Bishop HAS reached out. I mention this to say that for people in our situation, there is no obvious right/wrong and I think its good to recognize that Bishops are overworked people who really don’t have any idea what to do with people like us. My current Bishop treated me a bit like a project when he first got in, though I know he was totally sincere and well-meaning. When he sensed that I didn’t appreciate his overtures, he backed off and now treats me like a time bomb that could go off at any second. I don’t like that either. But, you know… it’s kind of my fault. I’m the difficult one, not him.

But, the bottom line is to make sure that the Church is a minor player in these life events for your children. This is something your wife wants, probably your kids do too. Make it something you all want together, and you’ll find it uplifting and good.

[Anonymous]

RealMe wrote:

Thanks for the reply Roy. Like I said I have been lurking and knew that you had been there with the baptism thing. Did you do the baptism and confirmation?

Yes, I did do the baptism and the confirmation. I acted like it was just assumed that I would officiate and waited for someone to tell me otherwise. (my only real “worthiness” issue is tithing)

I blessed DD that she would be able to discover and develop her own internal light to become her own unique best self. I blessed her to trust in the HG to help her to do that. I didn’t want my blessing to be uneccessarily tied to LDS cultural markers (even to such basics as sin and forgiveness).

On Own Now wrote:

If you can baptize your son, there should be no reason you can’t confer the AP on your other son. Again, though, if it turns into an argument, you won’t win.

Come to think of it OON is correct. Ordianation to the AP is treated similar to baptism in this respect.

[Anonymous]

RealMe wrote:

I couldn’t ordain my other son but can stand in the circle.

That jumped out at me. What’s the policy on that one? I always assumed that no one in the circle was “above” anyone else in the circle so having to be a bit more righteous (for lack of a better fitting word) to be the voice in the circle is a bit foreign to me.

To put it another way, if you’re “good enough” to be in the circle you’re “good enough” to perform the ordinance. If you’re not “good enough” to perform the ordinance you’re not “good enough” to be in the circle. That’s the way I’ve understood it, which is what created my initial confusion because of the distinction that was made.

[Anonymous]

nibbler, the official policy is that the person who is representing The Church by speaking the ordination has to be temple qualified, except for ordinances that are performed by Aaronic Priesthood authority (like baptism and ordaining within the AP). In those cases, temple qualification is not necessary. Further, in some cases, fathers may be allowed to perform an ordinance under the authority of the Bishop even if they fall outside the “normal” guidelines. The final decision rests in the hands of the presiding authority.

Generally speaking, Bishops tend to allow fathers to perform and participate in AP ordinances, since that is the spirit of the policies now – but, as with so many things, that will vary in different locations.

[Anonymous]

RealMe wrote:

It’s more of a disblelief thing than a pride thing. I can see that pride is involved though. I don’t know that the bishop will allow me to baptize I only know he told my wife I didn’t have to be temple worthy. I haven’t talked to him. Since it’s a convert baptism the confirmation will take place in church so I wouldn’t have to be a part of that. If I did it I would want no one else but the minmum required there. No missionaries or anybody outside the immediate family and only the needed priesthood. That doesn’t all work for the confirmation part. My real inclination is not to go or be a part of it. That will probably hurt my son’s feelings but I also have my own mental health and well being to consider.

If you’ve been lurking a while, you probably know that I also struggled with this recently. In my case, I struggle a lot with blessings and prayer because I’m not sure anyone is listening—actually I feel pretty sure nobody is. In some ways my problem is pride—I feel foolish saying these things. But when it came right down to it, I finally chose to set aside my own reservations and view it as something I did for my child. I was still nervous and unsure about it right up to the moment of the baptism. I’m still not a hundred percent sure it was the right thing. But it made my son so happy, and I can see that it was good in a lot of ways. I didn’t perform the confirmation and didn’t ask to. I just didn’t feel comfortable with it. We asked my father-in-law to do it, and that worked out just fine.

You mentioned your own mental health and well being. If you can try to explain what will make it so hard for you, as specifically as you can, we might find it easier to help you figure out how to be at peace with the idea.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the replies. I didn’t say before that there are no other relatives in the church. I am an only child and only my parents were members in my family and they are both deceased. My wife is a convert and the only member in her family.

On Own Now I think I understand what you’re saying about a spiritual event but I’m not sure I’m spiritual. I might be able to go for it as a right of passage at most. I don’t like the bishop and he easily annoys me so yes I am annoyed with him. You’re right though I would rather just be left alone.

Nibbler and Ray I only know what the bishop told my wife when she asked. She said he told her I could stand in the circle but not actually do the ordination.

Daeruin I feel like my prayers don’t go anywhere either. I have always struggled with prayer. I’m out of time this morning but I will come back and explain what I meant by the mental health issue.

[Anonymous]

Hi, RealMe – Glad you’re here. I hope these events go well in your household. If you make them family time, first and foremost, maybe you’ll all have a good experience.

[Anonymous]

I got through it exactly by viewing it as a rite of passage—it was all about my son, not me. I explained it to my son as him promising to try his best to do what’s right and to always listen to his conscience.

[Anonymous]

Coming from someone who made some mistakes in this respect, I’d say participate as much as you are permitted. I do fully understand where you’re coming from why you don’t want to participate, though, and if you really can’t bring yourself to do it you can’t.

[Anonymous]

In reference to my own mental health and well being I do suffer from depression and take medication. I don’t like the medication because I don’t feel like me when I take it. I have tried a couple different ones with the same result. So I usually only take the medication when I am having or expecting deeper depression episodes. I am not always depressed. I also have some OCD. In my mind things have to be the way they are supposed to be. With my current faith issues that causes quite a mental dilemma. I do see a counselor and also do family counseling. So some of my coping mechanisms are simply not putting myself in a place that might cause me to be too far outside my comfort zone or cause me stress or angst. I’m also supposed to do things purposely outside the comfort zone though so I can learn to cope. This whole baptism thing is a biggie in these respects.

[Anonymous]

RealMe wrote:

In reference to my own mental health and well being I do suffer from depression and take medication. I don’t like the medication because I don’t feel like me when I take it. I have tried a couple different ones with the same result. So I usually only take the medication when I am having or expecting deeper depression episodes. I am not always depressed. I also have some OCD. In my mind things have to be the way they are supposed to be. With my current faith issues that causes quite a mental dilemma. I do see a counselor and also do family counseling. So some of my coping mechanisms are simply not putting myself in a place that might cause me to be too far outside my comfort zone or cause me stress or angst. I’m also supposed to do things purposely outside the comfort zone though so I can learn to cope. This whole baptism thing is a biggie in these respects.

I have had extensive issues with family and church. I left my family behind (physical location) to remove one obstacle from healing but struggle with church one(the prescribe blue print prep lanes life pattern is very at odd with who I am at times which cusses suppression to fit in). To be at church will be to always be way outside my comfort zone). I cope for my wife but feel myself slipping away until I don’t recognize who I am. I don’t know what is best fir you but balancing being true to yourself and helping others be who they are while way outside comfort zone is mentally and physically exhausting. I try keeping it in short burst. It is about the kids choice, however kids often do what they feel will please there parents even if they actually don’t want to do something. This is bad as it creates more dependency for parental approval of decisions.

I think supporting your child what ever direction there decision takes them even outside the comfort zone is admirable. So long as nothing is forced emotionally. I have taken depression meds before and at least felt and the therapist to that I did much better off of them. But each situation is different. The laws of chemistry apply as physics. You can’t add or take away from something without adding or taken away from something else(no free rides in universal laws). So meds will always alter us in ways other then intended. There are also counter medication to nullify the effects while adding there own issues.

What ever and where ride of life takes you it’s hard learning the stuff you have control over and letting go of the need for control over situations. There is a bunch if wonderful people here with each there own experience and viewpoint. It’s what makes things so wonderful to be able to hear and share and listen to so many different ones.

Meditation, outdoor recreation, and finding beauty where ever I can find it while holding multiple view points outside myself are things I find helpful. 1 right way to life is so confining its perpetual suffocation.

If you don’t mind sharing what brings on the depression episodes? Coping mechanisms? There are a lot i do and don’t believe in but belief and testimony are far from the most important thing in life(for me). Positive fruit oriented action is top as is truth and dispelling misconceptions. I say that because you say that your not sure of your beliefs(religiously or even god). So what are the things that are important to You? Making a mental list or written ing it down and seeing where you stand and how you can relate to your wife and kids in those areas can be helpful.

Anyways I have spent enough time rambling: have a great day and take care.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Forgotten Charity. You are right, being true to myself while trying to help others be who they need and want to be while outside my comfort zone is exhausting. And being at church is usually outside my comfort zone lately and that’s why I don’t go to church. My therapist is not really into meds to begin with and he does understand why I don’t take them all the time and he is fine with that. I think he only referred me to an MD because I asked about it. I don’t know that I have a trigger for the depression, it just happens. It is more likely to happen when I am not very busy and I find that when I have a whole day with nothing planned I will likely end up depressed unless I fond something to keep my mind occupied. Just sitting around thinking seems to depress me. I will give your list idea a try. My wife and family really are at the top of the list. I never miss a Little League or soccer game and have told my boss that family comes first always.

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