Hi, my intro

[Anonymous]

Hi, I signed up today and thought I’d post an intro.

I’m BIC, RM, BYU grad, 8th generation LDS. I never went through period of inactivity. I’ve served in many callings and various leadership. Married in temple and father of four in my late 30’s.

I consider myself intelligent, analytical, and inquisitive. I’m a professional, not a scholar or academic, but I like to play amateur intellectual and dive into a subject.

I was lightly interested in LDS aplogetics in the past and read a few Nibley books and some other stuff. With the advent of the internet, more and more information became available and I started coming across new issues that challenged my view of the truth. I would hear something, write it off as anti-Mormon, then research the LDS apologetic view, and find out the basis of the issue was usually accurate but that there was an LDS spin to make it more palatable. Bushman’s RSR made things worse. After a period of twisting and twisting, I finally came to a tipping point where I decided to analyze things with an open mind, entertaining the idea that the church might not be what it says. This was a couple years ago.

So now after studies of issues like Book of Abraham and papyrus issues, multiple 1st vision accounts, polygamy, polyandry, doctrinal shifts on nature of God, peepstones, spiritual witnesses of the plates, Lamanite DNA, BOM source material theories, Masonic temple ceremonies, Kinderhook plates, Oliver Cowdery’s diving rod, and so on not to mention generic Christian issues like Osiris myth, Bible textual criticism, Epic of Gilgamesh, and reconciliation of science with creation, flood, and tower of Babel dispersion stories…I sadly say I have next to no belief of the truthfulness of the restored gospel.

Many people write this story on an anti-Mormon site and say it with joy. I say it sadly because I truly love this church. I feel I am part of it and it is part of me. I see LDS as my heritage and my posterity. I don’t have a big problem with the church’s social stances. I’m a BYU fan. I love the youth programs for my kids. I love living in a neighborhood that is 90% active LDS. I have always loved teaching the gospel especially to the youth, and ironically I still enjoy it, though it’s very difficult for me now, mentally. There’s some I don’t like about the church and the doctrines, but for the most part I’m very satisfied. I have a lot of turmoil, though. I’m angry that I didn’t know any of this stuff until now. I really got into what I call the Stephen Robinson LDS gospel which redefined a lot of LDS views on grace and what not, and have been close doctrinally to an Evangelical. I enjoy Christian authors like Lucado, Yancey, etc. My belief in Christ has always been much more important than my belief in Joseph Smith. But now with these faith issues, even that testimony is being affected. I’m not sure exactly what God is now and am starting to have cracks of doubt there is one. That is causing some anxiety and fear. I’m having some real rebellious desires to break all the commandments I’ve been taught for so long were so crucial.

My wife’s also BIC, multi-generational LDS from TBM Utah County. I’ve shared with her a lot of my feelings. She’s scared, but she’s pretty progressive in her thought. I think she thinks it’s a phase and I’ll come around. My kids are hitting teenage years and I don’t know if or how I should share any of this with them. I have this theory that the beep’s going to hit the fan over the next 20 years with the Mormon church and as all the questionable church history comes out in the sunlight, it will cause some massive changes if not some crumbling of the church. Will they be as angry with me that I didn’t share things with them as I was with whomever I’m angry with?

This intro may across arrogant, but I mean it as a way to share where I’m coming from. I truly don’t think I’m smarter or better than anyone who hasn’t reached the same conclusions. I still haven’t decided if my faith issues are a negative or a positive, i.e. is it due to a character deficiency like rebellion or pride or is it a sign of positive character?

I hope this is a community that will be good for me. I’ll try not to be too critical of the church, though I have some issues obviously.

[Anonymous]

Welcome UC. I don’t post much, but I read often. This is a good place. I understand your love of our church. I feel the same way.

[Anonymous]

Welcome Utah County! I hope you’ll find a few words of comfort around here. Many of us relate closely to what you are going through. It’s not easy, but with time and effort everything becomes more doable. I believe there are ‘deeper’ understandings that can help once illuminated.

utah_county wrote:

…I sadly say I have next to no belief of the truthfulness of the restored gospel.

I have to assume you mean that with a “literal” qualifier. Have you considered allowing a paradigm shift – letting go of the literal, and looking for spiritual ‘truth’ wherever it may lie?

utah_county wrote:

…because I truly love this church. I feel I am part of it and it is part of me. I see LDS as my heritage and my posterity. I don’t have a big problem with the church’s social stances. I’m a BYU fan. I love the youth programs for my kids. I love living in a neighborhood that is 90% active LDS. I have always loved teaching the gospel especially to the youth, and ironically I still enjoy it…

This to me is why you should fit in nicely here at StayLDS. Remember these things, keep your purpose for staying in the forefront.

utah_county wrote:

…I’m not sure exactly what God is now and am starting to have cracks of doubt there is one. That is causing some anxiety and fear. I’m having some real rebellious desires to break all the commandments I’ve been taught for so long were so crucial.

What about love? “God is Love” What about truth? We’re taught that God is the source of all truth (and to know God we should hold on to what we can find to be true). I realize these things don’t shed much light on the ‘physical’ nature of God – or even whether God intervenes in our lives, but to me it all has to do with discussing the nature of God – not whether God exists. I realize this is semantics to many people, but I like the common ground that God IS. Even ‘atheists’ could discuss God in terms of evolution and love.

Remember that peace and love is of God, fear is not. Remember that “we’re all in the same boat” here on earth, no matter the true nature of God.

Have you tried to look at “the commandments” as good advice? This kind of bugs me too, when I see ‘commandments’ taught as something we do only because God says to. I believe in doing things because it makes sense to – and I have practical reasons to follow most all of the ‘commandments’ that we learn about in church. Have you tried to look at them in terms of loving your family and fellow men? Or to maximize your own health/personal growth?

utah_county wrote:

…My kids are hitting teenage years and I don’t know if or how I should share any of this with them.

I think in time it will become more obvious to you, don’t rush it. You can teach small things, like “God wants us to think for ourselves (while we also seek the spirit)” that can go a long way.

I also think we all kind of wonder how the future will play out, there is one sure way to find out! I do think that the church as a whole is becoming more open about its history. Look at the Joseph Smith papers project, and RSR selling in Deseret Book. Personally I do see small signs of change in this direction.

Anyway, glad you found us! I look forward to more discussions with you!

[Anonymous]

Hello, Utah County. Welcome. I identified with a lot of your story. I remember teaching the youth and feeling strangely uncomfortable while still enjoying it. Such an odd position.

I will say that others have gone through what you’re going through. It won’t last forever and potentially is, strangely enough, a pathway towards a brighter life within the church.

Glad you’re here. Hope you get something from it, and please contribute.

[Anonymous]

Welcome U_C! I agree with almost all you said…I also like what Orson said — and there are many on this forum that have changed paradigms to view Joseph’s story (as well as the Jesus story) as our “myth,” in the Joseph Campbell sense. That may or may not work for you. The challenge I see is that most members see it all as literal history (especially in Utah County!), and it is hard to make that mental adjustment with them.

My suggestion is that you consider the pros and cons of any step you take. IOW, if you choose to stop attending church, what are the consequences for you and your family? For example, my wife, about 6 years ago (pre-marriage) lived in Orem. All the kids’ friends were active LDS. When she became disaffected, she continued attending church (she was the librarian) so the kids would not be rejected. Yes, it’s sad that is the way it is — especially in high LDS concentration areas — but it is what it is today. After we married, some of her kids have become inactive, but it is not as much of an issue up here in SLC.

Regarding your kids, I personally like the approach of telling them the various possibilities…even right down to the Jesus story possibly being fictional. When they ask what you believe, I like to say things like “everything happened so long ago, it’s hard to know what really happened, but I love to study it, and it helps me be a good person.” Kids will learn their truth, and the best example we as parents can give them is that of unconditional love and authenticity, IMHO.

Finally, it is common to have some anger towards the church when you find out the things you mentioned. I went through that stage like most do. But on the other side, I find it helpful to view it all as okay…the church is like any other institution that is helping many people, doing what they need to to survive, and they are doing the best they can with what they’ve been given. Take charge of your spirituality, let go of expectations, and consider that even if all there is is this life, you can live in love and joy with what is right in front of you every day.

Welcome again!

[Anonymous]

I’m so glad you joined us!!!

I am also BIC, Returned Lady Missionary, Married Returned Missionary in Temple – and then divorced. I went through most of my life without even a shadow of a doubt. I stayed clear of all anti-mormon literature.

I also considered Christ to be “the Author and the Finisher of our faith”. I began to feel concerned that the in the latterdays, JS would be considered the “author of our faith” by some, not Christ.

There are several things that have changed in my life. First, I am much more open to truth and spirituality that exists outside of the Mormon Paradigm. I worship with friends who are Jewish, Muslim and Christian. We all work on Sundays and enjoy a potluck dinner together. We share our faith in the God of Abraham and His love for us. We look for similarities in our faith, not difference. “The faith has made thee whole”, was my favorite quotes from the Savior. We look for “wholeness” of faith. Several of my Muslim friends have converted to Christianity because of the feelings of wholeness.

The second change in my life is that I am open to truth. Truth can present itself in the voice of a child, in a scientific study, in a personal history or even in an inspired book. I have learned not to fear truth. I now seek for Christ to be the foundation of my faith. It is too hard for me to base my faith on paradigms such as, “JS was a prophet of God”, or the “Book of Mormon is true” or even that the church is true. I need to base my faith on Christ. One cannot find some character weakness in Him that will shake one’s faith. One will never find DNA evidence proving the JC was not the Son of God. This is such a rock for me, such a sure foundation. I think that if the Church would help our youth to build testimonies of Christ, our faith could never be shaken.

[Anonymous]

Excellent intro UtahCty.

I have found this community very supportive to be a safe place to air my feelings, doubts, fears, questions, and new found learnings.

You’ve got some interesting thoughts…many of which I share with you. Obedience to commandments is different once the church is seen in a different paradigm. Things like Word of Wisdom or tithing have become problematic to me (I still live them but often wonder why). But I have chosen to hold on to my beliefs until I see a good reason not to…instead of jettison them all because I wonder if any of them matter.

I hold on to my prior experiences that meant a lot to me and try not to go back and rewrite my history or my faith…if I believe I received prayers in the past, I still believe I received them. However, what served me in my prior stage does not appear to serve me now…and so I must find new ways to seek peace and happiness and evidence that God knows I exist as a speck in the universe. I’m still a husband and father with responsibilities to teach and lead and love and develop eternal relationships.

I guess my initial advice to you is to pass on what was told to me the day I joined this forum…go slow and take your time finding what things you are meant to learn in this process that offers new growth and maturity for you. You don’t have to change things overnight when it took 35+ years to get where you are now!

Glad you are here! I look forward to learning from your posts.

[Anonymous]

Welcome UC. Thanks for sharing your story. We’re right there with you in the thick of it all too. I believe this is a positive and expanding experience for us, even if it is hard to see that at times. We’re here to explore this marvelous paradox you’ve entered — is it possible to stay in the Church and continue growing after such realizations and crisis?

That is what we are here to find out. I welcome another adventurer to keep us company in our walk down that path.

[Anonymous]

Welcome, “happy valley”! (sorry, had to throw it in 😳 )

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the responses. I’ll try to answer everyone together.

1. This is new to you as you are reading my intro for the first time, but for me this has been going on for a long time. I appreciate the advice to go slow and not make knee jerk reactions. I’ve been analyzing decisions on how to proceed slowly for the past several years.

2. Orson’s question about spiritual truth vs literal truth. I really like the concept of relativity. And I can stretch things a lot. I’m probably OK with saying there is truth in Mormonism, especially in a relative sense, i.e. the teaching of need for temple marriage for salvation. I can stretch it and say that God placed me in Mormonism and so there may be something about temple marriage that’s vital or good for me. But Mormonism makes some very specific claims. And even though I may make some peace with this relativity concept, it’s still very difficult for me to sit through lessons, listen to talks, discuss doctrines, allow my kids to be indoctrinated, be required to make unnecessary sacrifices and so on with Mormons who have a very literal, very black and white view of truth.

3. On past spiritual experiences. This is a really interesting concept and deserves its own thread. This is one of the areas I have put a lot of thought into over the past several years. I’m a spiritual person and feel like I’ve had numerous experiences with the Spirit. Intellectually, I have to look at the mass volume of testimonies of personal spiritual experiences across the world and in history and wonder about them. Are they all valid? Are they all interpreted correctly? I took Moroni’s challenge as a missionary in the MTC and had a powerful spiritual witness. What did it mean?

–“Holy Ghost telling me this is God’s word, it was written by an actual prophet in MesoAmerica 2000 years ago on gold plates that were given to and translated by Joseph Smith and is a sign that you belong to God’s one true church and hold his one true priesthood, and you are one of a small number of official authorized representatives of Him to teach the gospel.”

–“Jesus Christ is the Son of God and this book’s teachings about him are true.”

–“God exists and he appreciates you seeking him so intently”

–My unconscious self created the sensation to preserve my mental health

What is it? At the time I was sure it was the first. Over time I’ve reevaluated a few times to the second and now probably to the third. Someday will I reevaluate and accept the last option? I hope not, but maybe. I think it’s important not to dismiss the actuality of receiving spiritual witnesses, but I also think it’s appropriate to reevaluate the meaning.

Thanks everyone for the responses.

[Anonymous]

You bring up some interesting points. I can see some good discussions coming.

It is hard to sit in church and listen to talks and lessons that interpret things differently than yourself. I tend to also think that anything that is hard to do at first, becomes easier with practice. For me, keeping Fowlers stages of faith in mind helps a great deal in those situations. When I can see the purpose of their interpretations within the context of their paradigm it helps me to appreciate their efforts.

Spiritual experiences is another topic that fascinates me. Most of my ideas on the subject should be taken in the context of separating the physical from the spiritual, as outlined in this thread: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=642

To me, it only makes sense that spiritual methods or experiences deal directly with spiritual truths. I think it’s probably inappropriate to seek physical answers through spiritual means (as in praying to learn what the temperature is outside – from Elder Oaks talk). So how would this apply to praying about the Book of Mormon? To me it seems so simple, a spiritual experience will witness or point to spiritual truths. People can and do “gain the witness” of the spiritual truths in the BoM. I don’t want to degrade that in any way.

The conflation of spiritual truth with physical truth, on the other hand, is a much more complex problem in my mind. I agree that most members probably operate on the assumption that if the BoM contains spiritual truth then it must also literally be a historical record of ancient American inhabitants. My personal problem with that thought is I don’t see a spiritual witness as capable of confirming physical truth. I don’t think it is designed to. This is the gospel of Orson, but the physical and spiritual simply operate on different planes in my mind. So for the historicity question – I don’t think the evidence exists that can put the question totally to rest at this point. Either way. Even though the “nays” may be in the lead through lack of significant evidence. I don’t want to digress further on that topic, I just wanted to say I agree. I think you can hold onto past spiritual experiences – even if you tend to reinterpret their meanings down the road.

It’s good to have you here!

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Intellectually, I have to look at the mass volume of testimonies of personal spiritual experiences across the world and in history and wonder about them. Are they all valid? Are they all interpreted correctly? I took Moroni’s challenge as a missionary in the MTC and had a powerful spiritual witness. What did it mean?

–“Holy Ghost telling me this is God’s word, it was written by an actual prophet in MesoAmerica 2000 years ago on gold plates that were given to and translated by Joseph Smith and is a sign that you belong to God’s one true church and hold his one true priesthood, and you are one of a small number of official authorized representatives of Him to teach the gospel.”

–“Jesus Christ is the Son of God and this book’s teachings about him are true.”

–“God exists and he appreciates you seeking him so intently”

–My unconscious self created the sensation to preserve my mental health

What is it? At the time I was sure it was the first. Over time I’ve reevaluated a few times to the second and now probably to the third. Someday will I reevaluate and accept the last option? I hope not, but maybe. I think it’s important not to dismiss the actuality of receiving spiritual witnesses, but I also think it’s appropriate to reevaluate the meaning.

I really like your thinking here. I have had a similar life experience. Where I am right now is to say that spiritual experiences, whatever they are, are personal and only important to us individually. I have had personal spiritual experiences that I feel confident gave me the direction I needed in my life. I believe there is value in understanding them on a personal level rather than seeking for an interpretation outside of ourselves or even from an external worldview, although there are aspects to the Mormon worldview that really resonate for me and make sense on a visceral level. But, I recognize that inspiration comes to people individually, regardless of religious affiliation. And I don’t have the same level of confidence in others’ experiences as I do in my own, but they are not directly relevant to me. Everyone has to figure things out on his/her own ultimately and find what works to bring meaning and direction to you and to help you grow as a person. I’m looking forward to your contributions to the site. Welcome!

[Anonymous]

Welcome Utah_County! We’re practically neighbors–I live in the northern end of the county.

I don’t know if you’ve listened to Fowler’s Stages of Faith, but I think it’s important not to rush your kids into some of this, so I agree with the others regarding the “go slow” approach.

[Anonymous]

Just my own $.02. Thanks for joining!

Happy Valley wrote:

This intro may across arrogant, but I mean it as a way to share where I’m coming from. I truly don’t think I’m smarter or better than anyone who hasn’t reached the same conclusions. I still haven’t decided if my faith issues are a negative or a positive, i.e. is it due to a character deficiency like rebellion or pride or is it a sign of positive character?

There are plenty of TBMs in the world who will try to tell you that your “intellectualism” is bad and you just need to have faith. Your faith issues are a positive, I assure you. You just might not see it yet. But it will come. And, no it’s not a deficiency like rebellion or pride. You have chosen to grow up spiritually. There are few who allow themselves this opportunity!

Hawkgrrrl wrote:

I believe there is value in understanding them on a personal level rather than seeking for an interpretation outside of ourselves or even from an external worldview

This is brilliant!

[Anonymous]

Utah County,

I’m new here as well. I stumbled on this site a couple of weeks ago by accident, and I have to say that I love it.

Your story reflects my own. Xth generation Mormon, Returned missionary, BYU grad, lived in Utah county etc etc. I started examining Joseph Smith and began to wonder how God could call a man who had sexual relations with other women, was a treasure seeker etc etc. It’s a really spiritual and emotion roller coaster when you begin to doubt everything that you’ve been taught since you were little. As we learned when we were missionaries, everything rides on Joseph Smith…his vision, his testimony of the nature of God, his word about the Book of Mormon. But what happens when you realize that the man was defiantly no the shining pillar of righteous might that Sunday school makes him out to be? When in many cases he seems to be exactly the opposite?

Are we going to hell for not believing? Are there spots in the celestial kingdom for Mormons who don’t believe in Joseph Smith?

These are questions that I’ve had, and I assume that you’ve had as well.

I personally find it comforting to know that there are people out there who feel the same way, and who are trying to find answers to these questions as well…questions that cannot just be answered by prayer, scripture study and temple attendance.

Welcome to the group. I hope we can all find the answers together!

[Author]

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